Thomas Graves

James, For what it's worth, Bagley wasn't Angleton's assistant. He worked in a different part of the CIA called the "Soviet Russia Division," which at some point had its name changed to the "Soviet Block Division." -- Tommy PS I've read in one of Bagley's works recently that he didn't take false defector Nosenko's claims about Oswald (i.e., that the KGB hadn't interviewed Oswald, or monitored him very closely) to necessarily mean that the Soviets had killed JFK, but that it did indicate to him that the Soviets had had some kind of special relationship with Oswald before he "defected," and that that was one of the things they were trying to cover up when they had Nosenko "defect" to the U.S. in January, 1964.

James, This is what I posted to Steve: Steve, Do you agree with Michael Clark that I come across as believing myself to be "more patriotic" than other members of the forum; that I don't think other members of the forum love America as much as I do? -- Tommy Had Steve already said something to that effect, i.e., that he agrees with Michael that I appear to think of myself as being more patriotic than other members? Really? Where did he say that? I must have missed it. -- Tommy

James, I rather like that, actually. -- Tommy (aka "T.G'", "Mister Spell Check" "Graved" ...)

Mark, Thank you for your thoughtful response. Allow me to say that I do hope that a member of this forum can believe in and espouse the general theory that the KGB killed Kennedy (or at least programmed/trained Oswald to do so and weren't able to call off the mission once Oswald had returned to the U.S.), and that its doing so (in concert/conjunction with a certain number of "moles" and false defectors, and a lot of gullible people), gave rise to such a plethora of conspiracy theories and accusations against the government and the country's institutions (like main stream media) as to make it possible, eventually, for someone like Vladimir Putin to, through the wonders of modern, algorithm-based social media and its attendant Russian trolls, bots and contradictory, yes contradictory "fake news" (like Roger Ailes mastered at Fox News) not only ensure that a certain presidential candidate lose an election, but to actually help a candidate favorable to Putin win, with or without "collusion" from the winning candidate. In other words, a president who is, at best, the mother of all "useful idiots." Regardless, and in the context of your above reply, is it a two-way street here regarding "respect" and civility in general? Specifically, I hope that neither you nor any of the other moderators condone David Joseph's consistently referring to me as tommy. I humbly suggest that you look at it this way, Mark: How would you like it if I (or anyone else) addressed other people here as, for example, "Tom," "Dick," "Harry," "Jane," but addressed you as "mark"? Wouldn't that kind of "bug" you after awhile, and make you want to reciprocate in some kind of equally childish way? -- Thomas

edited and bumped -- Thomas, Tom, Tommy

Steve, Do you agree with Michael Clark that I come across as believing myself to be "more patriotic" than other members of the forum; that I don't think other members of the forum love America as much as I do? -- Tommy

Corrected already. My bad. Nice "catch," by the way, James. (I must have been thinking of Flash Gordon meets Steven Reeves or something.) -- Thomas, Tom, Tommy (aka "TG", "Mr. Spell Check, ...)

James R. Gordon, I know that you are very busy, but could you please ask Mark Knight to explain to me how most of my recent posts have been insulting the intelligence of the average forum member ? Also, could he please explain how I am "mocking the entire purpose of the forum"? Thank you, Thomas W. Graves PS Also, could you please request that David Josephs address me properly in the future, or not at all? Please see my most recent post on the "David Josephs" thread in which I have offered to stop saying "with all due respect" to him (and to everyone else for that matter). PPS This just in from James DiEugenio on the "An Open Message To Michael Clark" thread. Do you and / or Mark Knight agree with James? (Thanks.) OMG. I mean is this for real? TG, half of your idea is now on the ropes, unless you did not notice. The House investigation is over and after one year they could no evidence of collusion. The Senate is reportedly about to do the same. Mueller is so desperate he is indicting xxxxx farms he knows he can never give due process to. Months ago I linked to an article showing the whole DNC Russian hack thing was also dubious. So that part of your idea is about to expire. And you questioned me, oh those many moons ago before your sabbatical, about buying into unpatriotic Deep State paranoia because I said I would wait until the investigations have presented their findings. But you knew better and started questioning my sagacity in doing so. Please TG, show at least a bit of humility and self knowledge. Further, your idol Peter Bagley admitted to Malcolm Blunt that the so-called Oswald defection was a planned operation. Why not acknowledge that just to show you are being at least a bit objective.

Michael, Since I seem to be the only member of this forum who is "pushing" the KGB or Castro did it "theories" (hey, maybe even with the witting or unwitting help of some rogue CIA types), I can only assume that when you say, above, "our prolific 'KGB did it' member," you are referring to me. Am I correct in that assumption? Or am I just being "paranoid," here? If so, why didn't you say my name? Are you afraid the moderators would chastise you if you did? Regardless, in my humble opinion there are lots and lots of patriotic Americans who truly love their country but who have been unwittingly misled and conditioned by at least 58 years of (Soviet/Russian) "active measures" counterintelligence ops interwoven with "strategic / operative deception" counterintelligence ops into doing certain things (like believing that we live in a "Deep State," etc, or like voting for a blackmail-able "useful idiot" of Vladimir Putin) or not doing certain things (like voting, or fact-checking stuff on reputable fact-checking websites). I do not appreciate your insinuating that I believe that I am more patriotic than you or anyone else on this forum. More knowledgeable on certain things perhaps, but not more patriotic. At least I hope there aren't any dyed-in-the-wool traitors lurking here. (Laughing Out Loud) Have a nice day, Michael, and I (edit: really do) mean it. -- Tommy TG

Hey David. Welcome back. -- Tommy PS Would you like to make a deal? If I promise to stop saying "with all due respect" to you (and to everyone else, btw) will you promise to either 1) not say my name at all (or any kind of "nickname" or "moniker" substitute for it) in your posts to me, or in reference to me in other posts), or, 2) if you do say my name, at least write it with an upper-case first letter? (Oh yeah, and could you please try to cut back a little on the emoticons, you know, like the guy popping the other dude's balloon, that kind of stuff?) Thx!

deleted; moved to it own thread titled "An Open Message To Michael Clark" -- Tommy

Thanks Sandy. No wonder this murder case is so confusing. "Eyewitnesses" And in this case .... Interviewing a close-up witness to a very traumatic event fifty-five years later? LOL -- Tommy

Sandy, "Give it up." LOL In that post I was trying to say that your "Harvey" didn't speak with a Hungarian or Russian accent. By the way, have you seen my recent posts about Gloria Calvery, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, et al.? Your input would be greatly appreciated, especially since Bart posted a video yesterday (on his Anatomy of A Second Floor Encounter thread) of a recent interview with 11/22/63 witness Karen Westbrook in which Westbrook, IMHO, misidentifies Gloria Jeanne Holt as Gloria Calvery in the Z-film. Thanks, -- Tommy

I just checked the original. It wasn't "stomping," that Michael Clark wrote, it was "kiscks (sic) to the head." And it was "vermin"-like, "thugs"-like, and "rabid dogs"-like "hooligans" Bernie Laverick, Michael Walton, and Lance Payette and/or myself who were allegedly doing the kiscking. So I got it a little bit backwards, but the violent, dehumanizing imagery is there, and it's inescapable. -- Tommy

Ron, Word is, to use Dawn's colloquialism, he was "axed." -- Tommy

Ron, I guess you missed it when a member of this forum alluded to "stomping" "like "vermin" fellow members who have the audacity to disparage the Harvey and Lee theory. -- Tommy

Sandy, I didn't say anything about accent. Maybe your wife is a one-in-a-thousand, linguistically-gifted genius or something. All I know is that I taught English in the Czech Republic for seven years, and based on that experience ("the teacher always learns more than the student"), my impression is that using English syntax and grammar correctly is a very difficult thing for foreigners to learn how to do, and that it would be even more difficult for a foreigner like your putative Hungarian boy, "Harvey" (who had allegedly first learned Hungarian and then Russian from his parents), to master as well as the man who was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/22/63 did. (I'm talking about his spoken English here, not his dyslexic-like and poorly spelled/spelt written English.) -- Tommy

Tracy, After reading all of the posts in this incredibly long thread, one begins to wonder if it's not more logical to believe that there were two Lovelady's (instead of two Oswalds for so many years) on just one day -- 11/22/63. Bart's walking down Elm Street Extension, and Sandy's and mine (and Bob Prudhomme's), talking with Gloria Calvery on the front steps of the TSBD about 25 seconds after the final shot. -- Tommy

Bart, It's understandable that fifty-five years after the assassination, Karen Westbrook Scranton can't positively identify the dark-haired, brown coat-wearing gal (whom Sandy Larsen and I have identified as self-described Native American, Stella Mae Jacob). It's also understandable that, according to the moderator, Gloria Calvery's own son thinks, in so many words, that Westbrook is mistaken in her "positive" identification of his mother as the "red haired?" young woman in the Z-frame. When I look at the face of the light blue headscarf-wearing gal (your "Karen Westbrook") in the short Darnell clip (a frame of which I've posted below), she doesn't resemble very much the Karen Westbrook Scranton in the interview. IMHO. The young woman with the blue headscarf I'm referring to here (probably Jacob's colleague, Sharron Nelson, ne Simmons) seems to have a longer, narrower face than Westbrook-Scranton has. -- Tommy

Bumped for Sandy Larsen, who's been kind of inactive for the last 20 hours or so and may not have seen the most recent posts on this thread. -- Tommy

edited and bumped

That looks just like my dog "Kashmir" (R.I.P.) -- Tommy

Paul, With all due respect, would you please reconsider your drastic decision and ....... stay? Please? -- Tommy PS Or will you stay only if David Josephs is welcomed back?

-- Tommy

A timely bump? -- Tommy