Thomas Graves

Andrej It just seems to me that you're going to great and implausible lengths to make so-called Prayer Man a " 5' 9" man " on the steps/landing in Wiegman and Couch-Darnell because you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was 5' 9" tall (5' 9.5", actually), and for some reason you don't want Oswald inside the building proper. Once again, why would Oswald or anyone else have stood like that, Andrej? "Well, because he could and he did, Thomas!" Laughing Out Loud -- TG

Paul, You do realize, don't you, that Shelley's and Lovelady's later statements and testimonies were quite different from their first day's statements? -- TG

Paul, Tennent H. Bagley, himself, didn't think KGB had sent Nosenko to try to "fool" us into thinking Oswald hadn't killed Kennedy for the KGB, but did think Nosenko was trying to prevent or discourage CIA from looking into the possibility that Oswald had had a relationship with the KGB before he defected to the USSR in 1959. Regarding Golitsyn, you need to realize that "vintage" Golitsyn (pre mid-1964, iirc) was "gold," and that he got a widdle carried away after that, and things kinda started going sideways. -- TG

Michael, My, how insightful. (Actually, I tried breaking it up so even you could read it.) Regardless, would you care to comment on Deriabin's concluding that Nosenko was a false defector, and "Jeff" Morley's somehow failing to mention that in his book although he somehow had the presence of mind to use a quote from Deriabin to impugn the character of another Nosenko critic, Golitsyn, in said book? -- TG Is that too long a sentence for you, oh allegedly an English Literature major at one of the 64 CUNY campuses?

James, Here's the short "review" I wrote about it on Amazon on 11/30/17: This book is reasonably well written as far as the prose is concerned, but to anyone who has read (former CIA Soviet Russia Division counterintelligence officer) Tennent H. Bagley's "Spy Wars," Jefferson Morley comes across as being unreasonably biased against Angleton, as exemplified by the way he selectively presents facts surrounding the incredible challenges Angleton was up against trying to counter the Soviets' intelligence services during the Cold War.Here's one small example: True KGB defector Pyotr Deriabin interviewed controversial defector Yuri Nosenko for many hours after Nosenko defected to the U.S. in January,1964, and came to the unshakable-for-him conclusion that Nosenko was "fake," yet in Morley's book, Deriabin is mentioned only once, and not to criticize Nosenko or to support Angleton or to support Angleton's (and Bagley's) favorite defector, Golitsyn, but to point out, on page 107, that Golitsyn had, in so many words, a reputation back in the KGB to exaggerate and brag a lot. One wonders how much time Morley had to spend to find that "anti-Golitsyn" quote by Deriabin, and how he could, in good conscience, not mention that, especially as regards the all-important "Golitsyn versus Nosenko" issue, Deriabin was an Angleton supporter, not an Angleton detractor as Mr. Morley would apparently like for us to infer from his book.Like I said, just one small example. The book is full of them. -- TG PS Going from memory here, but doesn't it say in the Mitrokhin Archives that the Hunt Memorandum was a KGB forgery? PPS Maybe-off-topic-but-not-off-subject, but you do realize, don't you, that our very own patron, John Simkin, believes that Alger Hiss was a spy for the Soviets?

Anybody know what the focal length of the lens on Darnell's camera was? Did it have switchable/interchangable lenses? -- TG

That would include Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Will Fritz, and Jim Bookhout. (And if Fritz and Bookhout weren't lying, then Oswald himself lied about encountering the policeman on the SECOND floor.) Now, I wonder which one of these options is more likely to be correct: All of the above people were liars....or....Victoria Adams simply made an honest mistake about exactly how long it took her to get to the first floor? Is that really a tough choice for you, Sandy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David, While you comfortably sit on your LNer tush assuming that Victoria Adams made that mistake, a number of us here are PROVING that those who testified against her statement l.i.e.d. I have personally proven that Shelley and Lovelady lied. (As have others.) All you have to do is read Officer Baker's first-day affidavit and WC testimony to see that he lied. Several people lied in the coverup. Sandy, Interesting rebuttal. Our and Prudhomme's discovery that Lovelady is visible on the front steps in Couch-Darnell (and Andrej's assertion that Shelley is visible there, too) tends to undermine the later statements of Lovelady and Shelly, which later statements cast serious doubt on Vicki Adams' memory and/or veracity. -- TG

Bart, I'm way too busy arguing with him at the moment to do that, if you can imagine that. And regardless, I wouldn't want to get banned from the Forum for "shilling" for a former member. But I am trying to understand the phenomenon of "Prayer Man" if that's okay with you, and if my efforts to do so involve communicating with Andrej and posing questions to him that I've thought up all by my widdle self while arguing and talking with ... (gasp) ... Brian Doyle, then so be it. In case you're wondering, I do agree with something that Doyle has pointed out to me and which he says he discovered but is getting no credit for having done so -- that PM's position can be determined by computing a triangulation of the line of an aluminum window frame with the plane of sunlight falling on PM's right hand, and that the results of said computation preclude's 1) PM's being back in the corner, or 2) his or her leaning against the wall. Regardless ... Just by using my own common sense, it's obvious to me that PM's right leg couldn't have been 2 1/2" to 3" longer than the other one, and neither could he or she have had disproportionately long, giraffe-like legs (as Andrej apparently wants us to believe). In other words, he or she couldn't have been standing in either of the two ways Andre has PM standing in his two different graphics models (which both have PM standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing). To wit, neither: 1) by balancing the toe of his or her left shoe on the landing, nor 2) in order to have that foot flat (or at least flatter) on the landing, having to bend his or her left knee in an awkward, leg-splaying manner. Which of those two (In My Humble Opinion) highly implausible positions do you prefer, Bart? Hey, maybe the final result of my collaborating with both Doyle and Stancak will be that not only I, but the whole "research community," will benefit! Maybe even you, Bart. I mean, you know, ... in the really, really, really, really, really, really long run? -- TG

That's right, Sandy. (Where did Bart go, by the way? Haven't heard from him or Linda for awhile now.) -- TG

Andrej, In a nutshell, it's easier for me to believe that "PM" is a person about 5' 6" tall, either male or female, who's standing on the same flat surface as 6' 1/2" Frazier, and who appears to be dwarfed by Frazier only because he or she IS probably only about 5' 6" and standing somewhat behind, and a few feet farther from the camera than Frazier, ... ... than it is for me to believe that "PM" is a man of average height (or a tall woman) who is awkwardly standing with one foot about 7" inches below the other one. -- TG

Michael, Excellent points all, but I would like to point out that Woman-All-In-White (Reed? Hicks?) was "captured" going up the steps in Couch-Darnell (and trying to pull Gloria Calvery with her; note how WAIW's left shoulder dips and her torso twists counter-clockwise in C-D as she pulls Calvery's right arm up) only about 20 to 25 seconds after the assassination. But, granted, even just a few seconds is an awful long time for PM to stand with one foot on the step and the other on the landing, with either: 1) his left foot balanced on the toe of his shoe (see Andrej's graphic in my previous post, above), or 2) flat-footed, and with his left leg splayed way back there and his knee bent in an awkward-looking way. Which graphic "2" -- showing only PM and Frazier -- Andrej posted about six months ago, but which I now cannot seem to locate. Perhaps Andrej would be kind enough to re-post it here? -- TG

How long do you think anyone would stand on a step-and-landing combo like that, Andrej? -- TG

Michael, Why would he (or she) lean if they were perched on the edge of the landing above that step? I don't understand what you're getting at here. -- TG

Andrej, But why would he have stood there like that instead of back a foot or so, up on the level (and less precarious) entryway landing? To be closer to the action? (sarcasm) To improve his view of Elm Street by a couple of feet to the right down there (maybe)? Could you please create a graphic showing us what, exactly, he could see down there from that vantage point, and how it would have been better than from his traditionally assumed position, back there in the corner? How much lower is his head in your model than it is up on the landing and on the edge of that step? Pretty much the height of the step, right? What was that? Six or eight or ten inches? Why would he have sacrificed that height advantage as it pertains to POV? "To get a more sweeping view" of Dealey Plaza and Elm Street? Etc. -- TG PS It just seems to me that you're artificially placing 5' 9.5" Oswald there in that semi-dangerous "perch" because whoever it is back there in the corner (i.e., "PM") is too short by far, compared to Frazier, to have been 5' 9.5" Oswald. And that you feel compelled to keep Oswald in the Weigman, et al., "scene" somehow, in order to banish the thought that he just might have been inside the building, instead. In my humble opinion, it's all too contrived in order to "exonerate" Oswald, Andrej. Not unlike what Fetzer was doing a couple of years ago on this very forum with his "Oswald Was Doorman" theory.

Just curious. Has any of that early research been debunked or amended with little caveats at the bottom? -- TG

But she was practically deaf, right? -- TG

Josh, Gosh Darn It. -- TG

Also, if PM were standing like that, would his shoulders have been as parallel with the ground as they appear to be in the film (or films)? -- TG

Andrej, Thanks, but I don't understand WHY Prayer Man would stand with almost all of his weight on his right foot like that, as though he's ready to tumble (or be inadvertently bumped into by somebody and tumbled) down the steps. Not only that, but there's something unnatural about the model of him that I can't quite put my finger on. Are the lengths of his legs, as measured by his inseams, the same and/or in correct proportion to his torso, as Frazier's DO appear to be? Etc. Thanks, -- TG

Michael, In others words, why, IN MY OPINION, did I post this place? (LOL; You really DO crack me up sometimes, Michael. Do you fancy yourself the Forum's de facto watchdog?) Well, to answer your rather queer query (nice alliteration, eh?) ... one WOULD think it would be rather interesting to know (assuming that shots were fired from *somewhere* in the TSBD) whether or not it was possible for someone who was where Oswald *claimed to have been* during the assassination (wherever THAT was, Old Boy) to HEAR said shots, and if the answer to THAT question is "yes," then how Oswald answered the question, "Did you hear any shots, by the way, Old Chop?" (if, indeed, he was queried said ... query. I mean, don't you think that would have been interesting, and possibly even probative, to ask him that bloody question, Michael? Is it plausible, even, that they could have done, but decided to withhold that little tidbit from the WC ? "Yes, I heard them coming from Mr. Truly's office, or some such thing!" Regardless, why do YOU ask, if you don't mind my ... asking?? (Is it that you are sitting on "pins and needles" waiting for my next brilliant observation and/or thoughts provoking ... revelation?) -- TG

Andrej, Question #1: Can you think of any reason PM would stand the way he's standing in your model, with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing? In other words, did he stand like that for a reason, or simply because he could stand like that? Question #2: Isn't his right leg longer than his left one? Question #3: Aren't his legs too long for his torso? Thanks, -- TG

Just wondering -- was Oswald asked if HE'D heard any shots? "Naw. That noisy Coke-Cola machine musta drowned 'em out!" -- TG

Done. -- TG

edited and bumped