Thomas Graves

Mark, What better venue to bring up that aspect of the H&L "theory" than a thread on which a post is made which includes a document which states that the man who was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63 had expressed himself very well, indeed, in a job interview? -- TG

Michael, Should I have said "religion," instead? -- TG

Michael, Could you please explain to me how a Hungarian boy raised like that could end up speaking English better than most college graduates (if you ignore his Bronx-New Orleans-Texas "sound," that is)? Thanks, -- TG

David, I was asked nicely to not comment on the H&L Cult? When was that? -- TG

bumped; see my posts on this thread regarding this address also please bear in mind that, fwiw, I learned from a La Jolla friend of mine about a year ago that he had attended an Alpha 66 meeting in La Jolla back in 1963

I don't know if F&W knew this, but you are aware, aren't you Len, that there were two Oswalds and ... gasp ... two Marguerites? -- TG

Steve, It's interesting that Oswald expressed himself so gosh-darned well for a guy whom the H& L crowd believes was born in Hungary, and had learned that non Indo-European language and Indo-European (but highly inflected) Russian before, at eight years or so of age, he finally learned not-nearly-so-highly-inflected English. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. -- TG

James, Brian sent this FB message to me this morning: "I can't see the Education Forum link to register because I've been "deleted"...If you could pass me the registration link I'll re-apply..." -- TG

Good point, Sandy. In fact, if I understand correctly, Brian believes that Oswald was somehow set up by the CIA to be in the 2nd floor lunchroom during the assassination. -- TG

Bart, Are you accusing me of "playing games" on the Forum regarding Gloria Calvery, Gloria Jeanne Holt, Buell Wesley Frazier, Billy Lovelady, William Shelley, Sarah Stanton, Peggy Burney, Stella Mae Jacob, Marrion Baker, et al? Isn't that like impugning a Forum member's intellectual honesty, which is prohibited by Forum rules? -- TG

Copied and pasted here from my "A Question For James Gordon" thread, in which I ask James to please consider readmitting Brian Doyle to the Forum. Bart, How do you know Brian Doyle hasn't spoken with Gloria Calvery's son? Why would he prevaricate about Calvery's son telling him, in so many words, that Sandy and I correctly identified his mother in Betzner3, the Z-film, and Couch-Darnell about a year ago? Especially since Brian has been claiming for a long time that Gloria Calvery is the "Running Woman on Elm Street Extension" in Couch-Darnell? In other words,why would Brian fabricate a phone conversation so that he could publicly embarrass himself about having been so wrong about something for such a long time? Brian told me today that Debra Conway has accepted his theory. If true, that sound's like a ringing endorsement to me. Why should I (or anyone else on this forum) have to "explain my recent behavior"? Have I done something wrong? Is this an Inquisition? If you're wondering why I've recently started supporting Brian on his theory that Prayer Man is Gloria Stanton, let me say this: Starting with my discovery in the photographic record about a year ago of self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob and her TSBD colleagues Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Simmons, and moving on to Sandy and my ensuing discoveries of largish Gloria Calvery in Betzner3, the Z-film, and Couch-Darnell, those discoveries, taken in conjunction with what Buell Wesley Frazier, in his 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview, said about his having spoken with a "heavyset Sarah" on the TSBD steps a short time after the assassination, and various statements made by Gloria Calvery and Joe Molina and others, it seems to me that Brian is on the right track when he says that Sean Murphy's "Prayer Man" was actually Sarah Stanton, and that Marion Baker and Roy Truly did enter the TSBD about one minute after the assassination. Sorry to be so blunt, but Andrej's unconvincing-to-me attempts to show how Prayer Man could or even must have been a 5' 9" man (just like Lee Harvey Oswald of all people!) only serve to reinforce my opinions, as I outlined in bare-bones form, above. -- TG Trivia factoid: LHO was 5' 9.5"

Bart, How do you know Brian Doyle hasn't spoken with Gloria Calvery's son? Why would he prevaricate about Calvery's son telling him, in so many words, that Sandy and I correctly identified his mother in Betzner3, the Z-film, and Couch-Darnell about a year ago? Especially since Brian has been claiming for a long time that Gloria Calvery is the "Running Woman on Elm Street Extension" in Couch-Darnell? In other words, why would Brian fabricate a phone conversation so that he could publicly embarrass himself about having been so very wrong about something for such a long time? Brian has told me that Debra Conway has accepted his theory. If true, that sound's like a ringing endorsement to me. Regardless, why should I (or anyone else on this forum) have to "explain my recent behavior," Bart? Have I done something wrong? Is this an Inquisition? If you're wondering why I've recently started supporting Brian on his theory that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton, let me say this: Starting with my discovery in the photographic record about a year ago of self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob and her TSBD colleagues Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Simmons, and moving on to Sandy and my ensuing discoveries of largish Gloria Calvery in Betzner3, the Z-film, and Couch-Darnell, those discoveries, taken in conjunction with what Buell Wesley Frazier, in his 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview, said about his having spoken with a heavyset "Sarah" on the TSBD steps a short time after the assassination, and various statements made by Gloria Calvery and Joe Molina and others, it seems to me that Brian is on the right track when he says that Sean Murphy's "Prayer Man" was actually Sarah Stanton, and that Marion Baker (and Roy Truly) did enter the TSBD about one minute after the assassination. Sorry to be so blunt, but Andrej's unconvincing-to-me attempts to show how Prayer Man must have been 5' 9"(5' 9'.5", actually) Lee Harvey Oswald only serve to reinforce my opinions, as outlined in bare-bones form, above. -- TG

Andrej, Would you please post for me your graphic that shows only Prayer Man and Frazier, or tell me where I can find it on this forum? Thanks, -- TG

Yep. -- TG

Clive, This is interesting stuff. If I understand you correctly (I haven't watched this video, yet), Fagin and guests have messed up at least twice on the "big screen": with Woodward a few years ago, and more recently with Westbrook. Hmm. -- TG

Clive, If I remember correctly, Woodward was mis-identified by researchers for a long, long time. IIRC, she's not the pretty lady sprawled on the grass and wearing sunglasses. Can't remember the name of that woman right now ... FWIW. -- TG

James, I haven't cleared this with Brian Doyle yet (I'm doing this on my own inititiave), but I was wondering if you would allow Brian to rejoin the Forum, IF he promises to be civil and non-accusatory no matter how much baiting, or taunting, or invective he might be the recipient of here. I think it speaks volumes about Brian's integrity, knowledge, and serious desire to solve the JFK assassination that he contacted me by FB personal messenger a few days ago and told me that, to his everlasting chagrin, he had found out from Gloria Calvery's son that (in so many words) Sandy Larsen and I had correctly identified his mother in Betzner3, the Z-film, and Couch-Darnell, and that he, Brian, had been wrong in claiming for such a long time that "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension was Gloria Calvery. (He now believes, and I concur, that "Running Woman" must have been Calvery's colleague, Peggy Burney.) In short, I think that IF Brian could remain civil and unperturbed, he would be a great addition to the Forum, and that he could explain in his own words his "take" on Prayer Man, etc. Thanks, James. -- TG

Clive, Woodward, or Westbrook? -- TG

Clive, Thanks for the feedback. You're mentioning some things I hadn't thought of but which do make sense. I believe Calvery said that a policeman (Baker?) went into the building just before she (and her all-in-white colleague?) did. Also, if I remember correctly, Joe Molina said he encountered Calvery and another woman with her in the "lobby" a few seconds after the assassination, and he also said that a policeman (Baker?) entered the building at about the same time as that encounter. -- TG

Huh? Where, pray tell? Forty-three minutes ago and counting. Shall I bump it again, now, Michael? Or shall I wait the mandatory 24 hours before doing so, and give you another opportunity to "cover" it with a non-sequiteur one-sentence "post" at that time? Regardless, "quoted" for what, Michael? Are you compiling something like the Steele Dossier on Tommy Graves, except with the aim of proving that The Deep State really does exist? -- TG

dupe

Paul, I believe that Golitsyn was a flawed true defector, and that Nosenko was a flawed false defector. A big problem for Angleton and eventually for the CIA as a whole was that when the CIA or the FBI or whomever decided not to prosecute long-term mole "SASHA" (Igor Orlov) because he was no longer active, Golitsyn went a little bonkers and decided to cast suspicion on Orlov's former handler, Paul Garbler, and things kind of snowballed out of control from there. Or perhaps already had, IDK. (I'm away from my books at the moment and I'm sending this reply to you via my tiny android. I'll try to elaborate on this later this afternoon when I'm better able to do so.) Regardless, in my humble opinion it's rather foolish to insinuate that Golitsyn was the false defector of the two for the simple fact that Golitsyn helped to uncover several *important*, *still-active*, and *previously unsuspected* moles and Soviet spies in the U.S. and other NATO countries, whereas false defector Nosenko didn't do jack xxxx in that regard, and whose purpose in life seems, in retrospect, to have been to contradict, divert attention away from, and/or minimize most of what Golitsyn, in his vintage, pre-mid-1964, "golden" period especially, was telling the U.S. -- TG

Andrej, I guess I misspoke. Going from memory here, but didn't Prayer Man turn towards Frazier a bit sometime between Wiegman (when the first shot was fired, as captured in Altgens) and Couch-Darnell, suggesting that they might have been speaking with each other during the latter, i.e., while Calvery was telling Lovelady something on the steps ? Regardless, something that the very observant Brian Doyle pointed out to me is the fact that you have both of Prayer Man's hands illuminated by sunlight in your graphic, above, and that that suggests that you have the plane of sunlight wrong, for in Couch-Darnell only part of PM's right hand is in the sunlight. -- TG

Sandy, A case of sour grapes? Bart? More like a fried-out Kombi full, one would think. -- TG

Andrej, That's all well and good, yet you have yet to prove to my satisfaction that Sarah Stanton was not the "Sarah" towards whom Buell Wesley Frazier turned and spoke with, in Couch-Darnell, while Gloria "Big Girl" Calvery was telling Billy "Receding Hairline" Lovelady on one of the lower steps exactly what she and her colleague-in-white had seen about 25 seconds earlier down on Elm Street. And just before Officer Baker started running up the steps, past Calvery and her colleague-in-white, and into the building (as stated by Calvery and Joe Molina), and, yes probably even just before Lovelady and Shelly, whom you've come to realize are still "on the steps" in Couch-Darnell, took off for ... well ... took off for somewhere. -- TG PS Please bear in mind that Sander's description of where Stanton was a few minutes before the shooting started does not necessarily mean that Stanton was in the same location in Couch-Darnell.