Thomas Graves

Yes, Ian. But we must recall that Shelley's and Lovelady's affidavits varied from each other's quite a bit, and both of their affidavits, in turn, were radically different in essense from their respective WC testimonies. --Tommy

Yes, Ian. Good points, all. --Tommy

Dear Robert, I would agree that first day statements are generally more accurate (from a memory point of view) than later ones, but I would argue that they are not necessarily more truthful. In the case at hand I would argue that none of Shelley's and Lovelady' statements and testimonies were particularly truthful. They seem to be full of intentional mistakes, half truths, and "limited hangouts." All of them. Affidavits as well as WC testimonies. Do I think that Marion Baker and Roy Truly prevaricated, too? Yes! See my recent post in another thread in which I agree with Robert Mady that S & L were caught in Couch / Darnell walking towards the parking lot a few seconds after the assassination, but they didn't actually get there because they cut their journey short and entered the TSBD via a rear or side door. --Tommy

Robert, I guess that all depends on who you think "Gloria Calvery" was. Do you mean the woman at whose wedding (in July of 1963) "Bill Shelley of Dallas" was the best man? Do you mean the former "Gloria Jean Little" from Grand Prairie, Texas? --Tommy PS But I think you're right. We do need to look for a kinda tall, kinda heavy-set, blondish, light-complected, glasses-wearing woman standing near Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook down on Elm Street during the motorcade. If we can't find her, then we're gotta have to start wondering whether or not she was any good with a rifle. (Hey! Maybe S & L & Molina were covering for her. LOL!!!) It would be real nice to find some verified photos of Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook in order to help us locate Calvery. BTW, Ronald Fischer did mention to the WC that he saw a tall woman enter the front door of the TSBD a few minutes before the assassination. Could that have been the tall and pregnant Carolyn Arnold going inside for yet another glass of water? From the WC testimony of Ronald B. Fischer: Mr. BELIN - Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man? [in the sixth floor window] Mr. FISCHER - Yes. Mr. BELIN - Did you see such a girl walk in the building? Mr. FISCHER - I can.'t remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fischer.htm His affidavit of 11/22/63: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=493&tab=page

Dear Robert, I didn't mean to imply any of that. Perhaps you are inferring it? (Perhaps you posted this while I was still writing / editing my last post.) There's a big difference between saying that S & L walked to the parking lot and hung out there for a couple of minutes, versus saying that S & L started walking towards the parking lot (and were caught in C/D doing so), but cut their journey short, and entered the TSBD via a rear or side door, instead. Regarding your question about Adams and Baker, I'm sure the former was telling the truth. But that doesn't mean that Baker couldn't have run up the steps and entered the building, as suggested by the C/D footage. It's anybody's guess what he (and Truly) did after that. Maybe they stepped inside the Domino Room, shut the door, and talked about the situation for a couple of minutes, just to make sure they got their stories straight. How do I know? What do you think Baker and Truly did for the first five minutes or so after the final shot? --Tommy

--Tommy edited and bumped

--Tommy

Ron, if you watch the pertinent video you'll see that the car was backing up (because it was too far forward at some point) and it looks like Fritz was trying to tell the driver where or when to stop. Notice how the car's brake lights are on in the frame I posted? That's because the driver was braking after having backed the car up closer to Oswald and entourage. Never mind. I can't seem to post the "screen shot" image here. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. --Tommy PS But I agree with you, Ron. Fritz obviously broke away from Oswald because 1 ) he didn't want to get shot by Ruby, and 2 ) he wanted Reno to stop! stop! stop! so that Ruby would have plenty of room to "do the job."

Oh Mr Tidd, I fear you are digging yourself in deeper. But thanks for clarifying that about the scantily clad femme fatale nazi magazines not being about sex at all. Although I’m very interested in WWII I haven’t really explored that aspect of it and I’m not sure my reading will ever take me to that niche. Thanks for the heads up about ebay though. I didn’t realise Playboy had such interesting articles either. Now I understand why it’s so popular with the menfolk. In terms of Oswald it's probably best if we stick with the things we know he did read or watch (like his library books and "I led 3 lives"). I agree with Mr Parker that there is no question that Oswald was adventurous. He'd only just turned 24 when he died and if there were any other men his age that had led the extraordinary life he did up to that date then I'd be very surprised. Heck yes, Vanessa. It took me until forty-eight to reach that point (at which age I owned a bar in the Czech Republic and had already, many years earlier, hitch-hiked from La Jolla to Alaska and worked in fish (crab) canneries on Kodiak all winter, started surfing at Windansea (q.v.) in La Jolla, gone to law school, found my biological parents, etc, etc.). But Jon is right, Playboy has always been known to have good, interesting, occasionally even "intellectual" articles. You should check it out sometime. BTW, I have never ever ever even glanced at the foldouts, even when I was living in that crowded bunkhouse on Middle Bay, Kodiak (q.v.). I do wish I'd had these two great book by Greg Parker with me. But then again, that was way back in 1973. Or was it 1974? --Tommy

Robert, Maybe someone should politely and discretely ask Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, Carol Reed, or Gloria's former co-worker at the tire store, Dana Herring, whether or not the "Gloria Calvary" [sic] on Elm Street was the Gloria Jean Little / Gloria Jean Calvery they knew. Or, heck, even contact her brother, Jim Little, in Plano / Dallas... --Tommy That would definitely prove things beyond a doubt, although I believe the odds of another Robert Calvery marrying another Gloria Jean Little in Dallas, Texas are almost too astronomical to consider. So, where does this leave us? According to her statement. she was watching the motorcade, along with Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, on the north side of Elm St., about halfway between Houston St. and the Triple Underpass. It is not hard to recognize, from the back side, the blonde haired Hicks and Reed in her scarf but, is it possible that really is Calvery with her back to us, and another woman altogether in the lower photo who Mr. Speth has mistaken for Calvery, simply because of the similarity of her attire? Did Calvery take off for the TSBD as soon as the shots started? Nope. Here she is standing on the grass in a Jack Martin frame. (This Jack Martin was the one who a postal worker and worked at the big Terminal Annex Building, across the plaza) And note the other putative "Gloria Calver" wearing the white blouse and red dress, standing in the street. And photographer Malcolm Couch (who has already filmed Running Woman on Elm Street Extension) in the car. Bummer. I guess that means Running Woman (with light-colored blouse/sweater and dark-colored skirt) wasn't Gloria Calvery after all. Dang. Credit: I stole this image from the evil evil Duncan MacRae's "disinfo" website, jfkassassinationforum.com The frame is from 0:18 in this video: --Tommy

I'm bumping this great post by Robert "Maddening" Mady. FWIW, we now know that Bill Shelley was "best man" at Gloria Calvery's wedding in July, 1963, and that her husband worked practically next door to the TSBD in the County Records Office. I do not believe that the two possible "Gloria Calverys" down on Elm Street (where Gloria said in her FBI statement that she had watched the motorcade with Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook) was the "Running Woman" in Couch / Darnell -- wrong clothes, wrong complexion, not enough time. In her statement to the FBI, Calvery said nothing about walking or running back to the "island" or to the TSBD and telling Shelley. Lovelady, Molina, or anyone else for that matter, at either of those two places, about what she had seen down on Elm Street. Interestingly, she was not required to give testimony to the Warren Commission, so all we have is her FBI statement. I think the "Calvery-Shelley / Calvery-Lovelady / Calvery-Molina stories were fabricated out of whole cloth (with "limited hangouts," half-truths, and confusing intentional inaccuracies in all of them) in order to impunge (spelling?) Vicki Adams' account of how she and Sandra Styles descended the wooden stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor about one minute after the assassination. From another website: The Girl in the stairs Victoria Elizabeth Adams, a 22-year-old employee of textbook publisher Scott Foresman watched the JFK motorcade from the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository as it passed by. After seeing the fatal head shot, Adams and co-worker Sandra Styles ran to the stairwell and raced down the stairs to the first floor, determined to get out the back of the building to see what they could find in the railroad yard behind the fence on the grassy knoll. The key aspect of her testimony was that the stairway Adams took was the same stairway Lee Harvey Oswald would have had to have taken to get from the sixth floor to the lunchroom, where he was found by Baker and Truly. Yet, Adams testified she saw and heard nobody else on the stairs at that time. She estimated the time between hearing the shots and leaving the window to head for the stairway was between 15 and 20 seconds. She estimated it took less than a minute to run down the stairs from the fourth floor to the first floor. The problem was that Adams did not see Oswald passing her on the stairs; she testified she did not hear anyone else on the stairs when she was running down. Investigative reporter Barry Ernest describes in his book “The Girl on the Stairs” his 35-year search to find and interview Victoria Adams. When he finally found her in 2002, Adams repeated for him her story in person. She explained how various government officials, including the Dallas Police Department, had harassed her over her testimony. She produced for Ernest a 1964 letter her attorney had written to L. Lee Rankin, the chief counsel for the Warren Commission, complaining that someone had made changes in her deposition, altering her meaning. She explained to Ernest that she left Dallas after the assassination because she was seeking to disappear. “Remember, though, I was a very young woman at the time (22 years old) and believed in my government,” she told Ernest. “Because of the strange circumstances and discounting of my statements, my multiple questioning by various government agencies and the Warren Commission’s conclusions, I lost my starry-eyed beliefs in the integrity of our government. And I was scared, too. I was a young lady alone with no family or friend support at the time.” Reviewing with Ernest her testimony as published in the Warren Commission volumes, Adams insisted her testimony had been altered. “The freight elevator had not moved, and I did not see anyone on the stairs,” she insisted to Ernest. When Ernest asked her why the Warren Commission never called Sandra Styles to testify, Adams speculated, “Looking backwards I think they didn’t want to corroborate any evidence.” Yet, the record is clear. There is no photograph showing Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor during the JFK shooting, and there is no testimony from anyone who worked in the building to suggest that he was there either. The Warren Commission dismissed Victoria Adams, saying she must have come down the stairs later than she estimated – enough later that Oswald had already passed by. [...] Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/girl-on-the-stairs-refutes-p-c-jfk-narrative/#TYvvcJPjgAWicIXa.99 --Tommy

Here's an interesting Jack Martin frame showing the traditional "Gloria Calvary" [sic] standing on the grass, and the recently discovered, red-skirted "Gloria Calvery" standing in the street. Obviously, neither of them are "Running Woman," because Mal Couch (in car) has already filmed her running down (or across) Elm Street Extension. Bummer. Credit: In stole this image from Duncan MacRae's evil evil "disinfo" website, jfkassassinationforum.com --Tommy

Great clip, Clive. "Running Woman" is barely visible, running "off stage, right" in the upper right hand corner. Is this clip a continuation of Couch or Darnell, or both? Is Gloria Calvery on the "corner of the park," ready to tell these two guys (IMHO Shelley and Lovelady) what she saw, or is Running Woman Gloria Calvery? --Tommy PS These two guys are walking in the same direction, and are doing so in such a "synchronized" manner and in such close proximity to each other, IMHO, that we can say that they are very likely walking "together." It's just that one of them (probably Supervisor of the Miscellaneous Department -- William H. Shelley) has "taken charge," so to speak, and is "leading the way." Edit: I now believe that "Shelley" has started crossing over toward the "island," and that "Lovelady" is continuing on towards the Railway Yard and that he has just started running in that direction. If any two guys were walking to any "same place" together from the steps of the TSBD, would anyone expect them to be walking side-by-side at this point? Edit: Holding hands? Still a valid question. LOL Just kidding. That sure looks like "Shelley" and "Lovelady" to me, especially thin, suit-wearing "Shelley." The only problem I have here is "Lovelady's" (apparently) light-colored shirt. Edit: That "problem" immediately "evaporated away" when Bart Kamp, recently and on another thread, posted enlarged and contrast-adjusted frames from Couch which show "Lovelady" with a bald spot on the top-rear of his head and wearing a distinctive, long-sleeved, PLAID SHIRT as he walks down Elm Street Extension about 20 seconds after the assassination. Notice "Lovelady's" bounding, rising head in his very first first step. Compare the motion of his head to the heads of people around him. Their heads don't jump or rise like that, indicating that his head really did rise because he's starting to run in order to catch up with "Shelley." get to the Railway Yard (or the side / rear entrance to the TSBD?) as quickly as possible.

I respectfully disagree, Bob. They are walking side by side at the very beginning, and then "Lovelady" takes off and starts running when "Running Woman" is almost upon them. The situation: The handsome, charismatic President has just had his head blown off in an open convertible about fifty yards down the street. People are yelling and screaming and falling on the ground. "Running Woman" (whoever she is) is running like crazy in the opposite direction from where most people will soon be running to -- the far corner of the Grassy Knoll where it butts up against the Triple Overpass, or to the railway yard / parking lot. It's reasonable to assume that this Running Woman, whoever she is, has seen something traumatic / frightening associated with the firecrackers / gunshots heard by everybody right before the screaming and yelling started. It's also reasonable to assume that she may have conveyed something about her traumatic / frightening experience, perhaps even in a loud voice, as she ran across / down the Elm Street Extension. Given the timing and the situation, it's most reasonable to assume that something she said, or just the fact that she was running like that, motivated "Lovelady" to start running towards the railway yard parking lot, leaving his buddy (whom I believe to be Shelley) temporarily behind. Interestingly enough, note that "Shelley," too, seems to lean forward and "pick up the pace" right after that. I could go on and on, Bob. Suffice it to say that I disagree with you as to whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" while walking / running down Elm Street Extension for a very few seconds in Couch Darnell. You say "no." I say "yes." And we will never change each other's opinion, unless we can come up with some new photographic "proof" or "disproof." Where would you like to have Shelley and Lovelady this time? I have looked at this part of Couch / Darnell over and over again. I've found that it's best when I look at it "blown up" and in slow motion, because only then can I "only just" make out not only Lovelady's distinctive short-but-husky stature, the sunlight shining on his bald forehead, his long sideburns, and his generally-receding hairline, but also Shelley's white shirt collar above his dark suit, his thin physique, and his distinctive turned-up-in-the-front "hairdo." If you are patient and you look very closely (like you did when I told you where to look for that tiny bit of Gloria Calvery's face behind Aurelia Alonzo's head -- remember?), you can see these things, too. Since it's a film clip instead of a static photo, you'll probably have to look at it over and over and over again, as I did. Are you willing to do that, Bob, and at least try to see what I'm trying to point out to you? Edit: It looks like "Shelley" pulls up a little (slows down; stands up straighter) as Running Woman gets close to them, as though he wants to look at her closely and hear anything she might have to say, or maybe ask her a quick "yes or no" question, and please note how he then leans his body forward a bit and starts running, too. What's interesting is how Running Woman seems to "pull up" some, too, if only for a split second, and seems to glance at them when her head is between theirs. Credit: Gerda Dunckel I'm sorry if this doesn't fit in with some theory of yours. Not trying to sound sarcastic. BTW, Why do you believe so much of what Shelley and Lovelady said and changed so many times? In his affidavit Shelley said he talked with Calvery on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination, but in his WC testimony he sang a different tune and said that she "ran back up there [to the steps] crying and said 'The President has been shot" three or four minutes after the assassination, and that he and Lovelady then walked to the "island" from which point they turned and saw Truly and Baker near the front of the TSBD.. Lovelady didn't mention Calvery in either of his affidavits, nor did he say anything about walking with Shelley down to the parking lot, but did say in his WC testimony that they spoke with her when she came up to them on the steps about three minutes after the assassination. Which version of theirs do you want to believe in, and which versions do you want to discount? What is it that you don't believe about Baker's "timing" -- too long, too short? What about the photographic evidence of Couch / Darnell, including that part of Couch which seems to show the red-dress-wearing "Gloria Calvery" still down on Elm Street by A.J. Millican while Running Woman is running down or across Elm Street Extension, and Marion Baker is running towards the front steps of the TSBD? --Tommy PS I'm always leery when anyone on an assassination forum says "Obviously." Edited and bumped Isn't anyone besides Robert, Chris, Clive, and myself interested in this thread? What do others think -- Were Shelley and Lovelady "captured" in Couch / Darnell as they walked / ran down Elm Street Extension? Yes or No? Don't be shy.

I respectfully disagree, Bob. They are walking side by side at the very beginning, and then "Lovelady" takes off and starts running when "Running Woman" is almost upon them. The situation: The handsome, charismatic President has just had his head blown off in an open convertible about fifty yards down the street. People are yelling and screaming and falling on the ground. "Running Woman" (whoever she is) is running like crazy in the opposite direction from where most people will soon be running to -- the far corner of the Grassy Knoll where it butts up against the Triple Overpass, or to the railway yard / parking lot. It's reasonable to assume that this Running Woman, whoever she is, has seen something traumatic / frightening associated with the firecrackers / gunshots heard by everybody right before the screaming and yelling started. It's also reasonable to assume that she may have conveyed something about her traumatic / frightening experience, perhaps even in a loud voice, as she ran across / down the Elm Street Extension. Given the timing and the situation, it's most reasonable to assume that something she said, or just the fact that she was running like that, motivated "Lovelady" to start running towards the railway yard parking lot, leaving his buddy (whom I believe to be Shelley) temporarily behind. Interestingly enough, note that "Shelley," too, seems to lean forward and "pick up the pace" right after that. I could go on and on, Bob. Suffice it to say that I disagree with you as to whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" while walking / running down Elm Street Extension for a very few seconds in Couch Darnell. You say "no." I say "yes." And we will never change each other's opinion, unless we can come up with some new photographic "proof" or "disproof." Where would you like to have Shelley and Lovelady this time? I have looked at this part of Couch / Darnell over and over again. I've found that it's best when I look at it "blown up" and in slow motion, because only then can I "only just" make out not only Lovelady's distinctive short-but-husky stature, the sunlight shining on his bald forehead, his long sideburns, and his generally-receding hairline, but also Shelley's white shirt collar above his dark suit, his thin physique, and his distinctive turned-up-in-the-front "hairdo." If you are patient and you look very closely (like you did when I told you where to look for that tiny bit of Gloria Calvery's face behind Aurelia Alonzo's head -- remember?), you can see these things, too. Since it's a film clip instead of a static photo, you'll probably have to look at it over and over and over again, as I did. Are you willing to do that, Bob, and at least try to see what I'm trying to point out to you? Edit: It looks like "Shelley" pulls up a little (slows down; stands up straighter) as Running Woman gets close to them, as though he wants to look at her closely and hear anything she might have to say, or maybe ask her a quick "yes or no" question, and please note how he then leans his body forward a bit and starts running, too. What's interesting is how Running Woman seems to "pull up" some, too, if only for a split second, and seems to glance at them when her head is between theirs. Credit: Gerda Dunckel I'm sorry if this doesn't fit in with some theory of yours. Not trying to sound sarcastic. BTW, Why do you believe so much of what Shelley and Lovelady said and changed so many times? In his affidavit Shelley said he talked with Calvery on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination, but in his WC testimony he sang a different tune and said that she "ran back up there [to the steps] crying and said 'The President has been shot" three or four minutes after the assassination, and that he and Lovelady then walked to the "island" from which point they turned and saw Truly and Baker near the front of the TSBD.. Lovelady didn't mention Calvery in either of his affidavits, nor did he say anything about walking with Shelley down to the parking lot, but did say in his WC testimony that they spoke with her when she came up to them on the steps about three minutes after the assassination. Which version of theirs do you want to believe in, and which versions do you want to discount? What is it that you don't believe about Baker's "timing" -- too long, too short? What about the photographic evidence of Couch / Darnell, including that part of Couch which seems to show the red-dress-wearing "Gloria Calvery" still down on Elm Street by A.J. Millican while Running Woman is running down or across Elm Street Extension, and Marion Baker is running towards the front steps of the TSBD? --Tommy PS I'm always leery when anyone on an assassination forum says "Obviously."

Bob, I haven't even read your whole "reply" yet, just the first sentence -- a rhetorical question which kinda irks me. Where in the heck did I say that that's how they found out / learned of the assassination? If anything, I said that's how Shelley said he'd "learned of" the assassination -- from an encounter with a woman [he thought was?] "Gloria Calvery" "on the corner of the park" (i.e., near the "island"?). Are we gonna quibble about everything, Bob? If so, I'm outta here. I get the feeling that most of what I say doesn't jibe with some grand theory of yours which you are for some reason loath to elaborate upon at this forum. Don't you like the idea of my trying to "spin" or interpret the evidence in such a way as to support those students and researchers who believe that Lovelady and Shelley prevaricated at different times and in different ways, with the ultimate effect of "giving" Oswald enough time, before Adams' and Styles' belated "coming down to the first floor and talking with Shelley there", to run down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunch room for his timely encounter with Baker and Truly? I'm outta here for a few minutes. Maybe I'll even read the rest of your reply now. I may even come back and say "My bad. I'm sorry. I should have read you whole rhetorical reply." LOL --Tommy OK I've read all of it now, and ... no apologies. You make a mistake in your second sentence when you say "From both of their first day statements ..." [emphasis added]. Fact is, only "best man" Shelley said anything about Calvery in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Lovelady said nothing about Calvery in either of his. In both of them he says, "After it was over we went back inside the building." Did he make a third or a fourth statement (affidavit) on 11/22/63 of which I am blissfully unaware, Bob? Since you don't think Shelley and Lovelady were "captured" walking down the Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell, do you instead believe that Lovelady was telling the truth when he said "After it was over we went back inside the building and went to work [sic] took some policemen upstairs to search the building"? Or that Shelley was telling the truth when he said he spoke with Gloria Calvery "on the corner of the park" and then, instead of walking down to the railway yard / parking lot with Lovelady, went back inside and called his wife and then was told to guard the elevator on the first floor but turned the job over to "slow-but-loyal-and-reliable" Jack Dougherty, instead, and proceeded to take some police officers upstairs? What do you think Lovelady and Shelley did right after the shooting, Bob? Went back to work / Took some policemen upstairs or guarded the elevators or twiddled their thumbs for three minutes on the front steps (although they apparently weren't captured in any photographs or films) and then walked down to the railway yard / parking lot and returned to the TSBD and entered it through a back door to find Vicki Adams there? Maybe we can "tweak" enough things to make one of these "work." Just curious as to what you believe, Bob. Thanks.

PS It's always possible that Lovelady and Shelley only thought it was Gloria Calvery who was running past them yelling "The President's been shot!" as they walked down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot a few seconds after the assassination. The fact that they misidentified Calvery or created the Calvery story out of whole cloth (dummies -- why even mention her at all, Bill Shelley? -- because since you'd been "best man" at her wedding you figured she'd prevaricate for you?) argues for the fact that they'd only gotten a glimpse of Running Woman -- mistaking her for Gloria Calvery -- in passing, and that they didn't talk with either of them on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination or on the steps some three minutes (as Lovelady said) after it. William Shelley blew it when he mentioned Calvery's name in his 11/22/63 statement, but the half-truth he did tell is fascinating-- that he [and the unmentioned Lovelady] left the steps right away and "encountered Calvery" -- the streaking-past-them-Running Woman] "on" / near / across from the "island" as they were walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard. Little (pardon the pun) did they know that some fifty years later some guys and gals on the Internet would figure out that they had left the steps almost immediately after the shooting, and that the screaming, running woman they thought was Gloria Calvery really wasn't Calvery after all. And that we would eventually figure out that they had lied, Lovelady in particular, in order to twist Vicki Adam's story in such a way as to give Oswald enough time to sneak down the stairs without being seen by Adams and Styles. Shelley's typed 11/22/63 affidavit. In it he says he ran across to the "corner of the park" (i.e., the "island") and encountered a crying Gloria Calvery there who told him the President had been shot. He says he went back inside the building and called his wife and was then told to guard the elevator on the first floor, but that he left it in charge of Jack Dougherty and went up to the upper floors with some police officers. http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/m1/1/ In his first affidavit (handwritten) of 11/22/63, Lovelady says nothing about leaving the steps and walking / running down to "the corner of the park" or the railway yard / parking lot, nor anything about Gloria Calvery. Just, "After it was over we went back inside the building and went to work. [sic] took some police officers up to search the building." http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338698/m1/1/?q=lovelady Lovelady's second affidavit (typed) of 11/22/63 said the same, except in it he says "We went back inside the building and I took some policemen up to search the building." Still nothing about leaving the front steps and walking / running down to the railway yard. Nor anything about encountering Gloria Calvery on or near the "island." Lovelady didn't mention any of that until he gave his WC testimony about half a year later. http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338214/m1/1/?q=lovelady From Lovelady's WC testimony: Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken? Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating). Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step? Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level. Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. ["Yeah" sounds like a prevarication here. Why not, "Yes", "Right", or "Yes, sir" like all of his other affirmative answers? This is the only "yeah" in his testimony.] Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley. Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes--- Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there? Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running. Mr. BALL - That's all? Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess--- Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Mr. BALL - How many steps? Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk. Mr. BALL - A fast walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door? Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door? Mr. LOVELADY - That's right. Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it? Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street? Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock. Mr. BALL - I am? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two. Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. Mr. BALL - Now, the south side--- Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street. Mr. BALL - That's south. Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? [excellent question, Mr. Ball, but you shoulda then asked Billy, "Why did you even bring her name up before I asked you, you big dummy, and why wouldn't you swear it was her -- afraid of perjuring yourself, are you? -- Who told you it was Vicki, anyway? -- Shelley? Bill Decker? Joe Civello?] --Tommy Edit: As though Lovelady would have timed, with his watch, how long it took Gloria Calvery to run up to him and Shelley on the steps if he had had a watch. What a lame response to Ball's statement, "Three minutes is a long time." LOL ! Likewise, what lame excuses by Lovelady for "not noticing" whether or not people had started running by the time Calvery came up to them. What a p-r-e-v-a-r-i-c-a-t-o-r Lovelady is!

Here is the Couch clip from which the above frame was taken. In the clip you can see the woman with the white blouse near A. J. Millican stepping up on the curb from the street. "Running Woman," of course, has already been caught on film by Couch's own camera. --Tommy

Jon, he talks about watching TV and reading magazines all day while truanting in NYC. The specifics regarding the magazines are never mentioned. I have always taken it to mean comic books. Whether he read the type of magazines you refer to when a bit older, I don't know. He could have been exposed to them in the brief periods Robert lived at home, or while working at Tujagues, or later in the Marines. The question about the alleged fascination with Philbrick fascinates me. He liked comics, therefore he had fantasies of power and revenge. He may have opened a gun magazine once. That makes him a gun nut. He may have liked spy books and tv shows. He was therefore drawn to emulate. He may have seen 7 days in May and so was influenced to assassinate Kennedy. In any case -- you haven't even specified who you're talking about. Lee Oswald or Marina's husband? Get with the program, Jon. Greg, Dang it! We already know that "Lee" was a macho, bull-necked bully, and that "Harvey" was a wimpy little kid of Hungarian ancestry (Hungarian isn't an Indo-European language and is therefore very different from Russian, and English, too, for that matter) who was interested in astronomy and reading. (Or was that "Lee"? -- I get so confused.) Anyway, I'm betting it was "Harvey" who watched "I Led Three Lives" and read "True Men" as a way to --- well, compensate for his inadequacies. "Lee"? He didn't need to. He was livin' the life, baby, playin' hooky, livin' above a bar in the French Quarter, hangin' with Dave Ferrie and all. (Or was that "Lee"? -- I get so confused.) --Tommy

Yes, as is one of the two khaki-dressed guys standing in front of the TSBD in Wiegman, you know, the two guys previously misidentified as "Truly and Campbell"? One of them looks back toward the front entrance about the same time as A.J. Millican does. Maybe they and the black women all heard the silenced shot. Regarding the two-frame Wiegman gif, in the frame with the car, the guy I'm talking about is visible above the driver's side window and he's looking straight ahead at the motorcade. In the frame without the car, the same guy is shown a few seconds later, after at least the first shot has been fired, and he's looking at the front entrance / steps of the TSBD. [i'm having problems posting the gif here] --Tommy

Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones. I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film. Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely. Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off. IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch. On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert? Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself? If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed. I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one. This is I think, the woman Chris [Davidson] pointed to in Z, still in position next to [A.J. Millican] and lamp post [...] Clive, Edit: I think you're right, so I guess it means Chris' "Gloria Calvery" (in the white blouse and long dress, above), couldn't be the same person as "Running Woman." The timing is all off. Darn. Back to square one. Nice catch, btw. [...] Robert, For What It's Worth -- I want "Running Woman" to be a lithe Gloria Calvery (having lost some weight since her marriage), wherever she was standing during the motorcade. I want the two guys who are in close proximity to each other as they are walking / running down Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady (and I believe they are), proving that they prevaricated (in order to screw up Vicki Adams' story) when they said they stayed on the steps, twiddling their thumbs, for three minutes. I want the fast-running Calvery to yell out, "The President's been shot!" as she runs past Shelley and Lovelady, not far from the "island" on Elm Street Extension. I want Calvery to continue running down to the corner of Elm and Houston and for Baker to follow her down there and talk with her for five or ten minutes, in order to accommodate any theories that we might come up with regarding Oswald and the second floor lunchroom "encounter," etc. But that would prove Joe Molina to be a prevaricator then, wouldn't it. I forgot about that... I want the three women, standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street and previously "identified" as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed, to be finally determined to be other people entirely. Seriously. Not being ironic or sarcastic here, --Tommy edited and bumped

Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones. I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film. Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely. Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off. IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch. On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert? Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself? If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed. I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one. This is I think, the woman Chris [Davidson] pointed to in Z, still in position next to [A.J. Millican] and lamp post [...] Clive, Edit: I think you're right, so I guess it means Chris' "Gloria Calvery" (in the white blouse and long dress, above), couldn't be the same person as "Running Woman." The timing is all off. Darn. Back to square one. [...] Robert, For What It's Worth -- I want "Running Woman" to be a lithe Gloria Calvery (having lost some weight since her marriage), wherever she was standing during the motorcade. I want the two guys who are in close proximity to each other as they are walking / running down Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady (and I believe they are), proving that they prevaricated (in order to screw up Vicki Adams' story) when they said they stayed on the steps, twiddling their thumbs, for three minutes. I want the fast-running Calvery to yell out, "The President's been shot!" as she runs past Shelley and Lovelady, not far from the "island" on Elm Street Extension. I want Calvery to continue running down to the corner of Elm and Houston and for Baker to follow her down there and talk with her for five or ten minutes, in order to accommodate any theories that we might come up with regarding Oswald and the second floor lunchroom "encounter," etc. But that would prove Joe Molina to be a prevaricator then, wouldn't it. I forgot about that... I want the three women, standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street and previously "identified" as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed, to be finally determined to be other people entirely. Seriously. Not being ironic or sarcastic here, --Tommy

Here's a blowup of Willis #5 (from a French website) which shows the same white-bloused woman next to A. J. Millican. Looks to me like she could be Gloria Calvery. Interesting to see she was wearing a red (plaid?) dress. "Running Woman's" arms aren't swinging in Couch / Darnell, probably because she's clutching her purse to her chest. Note that the girl wearing the red dress in Willis #5 appears to have her purse tucked under her left elbow.

Vanessa, Resit arrest, I mean. --Tommy

(Please disregard somebody else's confusing of Oswald for Lovelady in this extreme blowup of Altgens 6.) Blow it up (click on it) and look very closely at the girl wearing glasses next to A. J. Millican. Notice how her cheek seems to be all puffed out way past her glasses? It's not her cheek, but part of the face of the woman standing behind her, between her and Millican. You can see some of the other woman's hair, too, and her forehead and right eye (as we look at her), as well. https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg --Tommy