Thomas Graves

See ya, Stevo. I've had my fill off idiots. But no one has to agree with my take on it. I have more new info to come concerning the defection. // PARKER QUOTE IN RED ================================================================================================= KNEW THE EKDAHL'S ?? YOU MEAN HE WAS SELECTED FOR INTELL RIGHT AFTER SECOND GRADE ?? (SEE ABOVE TIMELINE) ,Welcome to Harvey & Lee.,gaal Likelihood that a one family knew another (Hyde clan knew the Ekdahls ,per Parker) 23 years before PAINES MEET Oswalds seem like a meaningless stretch of facts. ,gaal The forum gets what it asks for. It gets Steve. Greg, It's good therapy. Looks like Steve wants to make you an honorary member of the H&L Cult. --Tommy

Jon, I intuited that. --Tommy

Greg, Was FICON the predecessor to the U-2 program, or was it supplanted by it? --Tolmmy The difference is a bit too subtle for my primitive outback mind,Tommy. Greg, I suppose I should take that into consideration. --Tommy

Can we please get past the ridiculous assertion that one has to read every word in H&L in order to express an opinion on any given subject? Greg Parker or anyone else can go to the book and look through the index and read everything Armstrong wrote about Hartogs for example and then be fully qualified to discuss Armstrong's theory on that particular issue. Why is that concept so difficult for the H&L people to grasp? Let me quote from an EF poster named Lee Farley who said it best: "One of the tactics generally fired at you from the H&L supporters, in an effort to dismiss you, is to challenge whether you have read the book. First of all - - you CANNOT READ this book in the conventional sense of reading a book. It is not a page turner. It is a reference book that contains a thinly held together narrative of nonsense." Should we suppose Lee Farley now has the last word re H&L? C'mon Parnell... The lone nut camp has made a career of late criticizing an independent JFK assassination researcher who sponsored his own researcher (time and money) privately published his own work and distributed his own work... That about right? Actually, I don't blame you for reaching to the stars. Just imagine, nutters now looking through the "looking glass." After 50 years of defending the undefendable, 'the 1964 WCR,' you guys certainly need a change of scenery... Tis the last generation of LHO did it all by his lonesome crowd, right? But ya still need to make 'no conspiracy here, ma' hay somewhere, somehow, right... lmao! Dear Mr. Healey, I'm obviously not speaking for Tracy Parnell here, but do you think everyone who is a CTer and happens to disagree with Armstrong's premises, interpretations, and/or conclusions, is a "Lone Nutter"? --Tommy thank you for assuming this post was not directed to you, it wasn't. Let me fill you in on something most who have been at this for a while KNOW. Without DOUBT! Those that claim CT status need go no further than the claim, they will not be chastised for what they know or don't know. If some professed CT's need further convincing about anything, so be it, feel free to do whatever toots their boot! I could care less. For me, reading the entire 1964 WC 26 volumes and the WC abridged report did not make me a CT, concluding the Zapruder film may have been altered did not make me a CT. It's was a visceral gut reaction that made me a CT. And I'm still not convinced LHO of whatever stripe was NOT involved in the assassination (knowingly or unknowingly). Shorthand, the WCR did not convince of his guilt. You are what you are Tom, but if you can't spell my last name right and I suspect you've had trouble with that spelling for a long while, years in fact. And that of course, has nothing to do with H&L! Dear Mr. Healy, I apologize for spelling your name incorrectly. It was unintentional I assure you. "That" spelling? What do you mean by "that" spelling? Am I the first person to misspell your name? Thank you for letting me know it's okay to be a CTer but not be a devotee of H&L. It just seems to me that you think everyone who disagrees with you on the assassination is a "lone nutter," --Tommy

Clive, Correct. I disagree. I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street. --Tommy

Linda, if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us. I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us. Right, We try to only insult people we don't know. LOL --Tommy

Can we please get past the ridiculous assertion that one has to read every word in H&L in order to express an opinion on any given subject? Greg Parker or anyone else can go to the book and look through the index and read everything Armstrong wrote about Hartogs for example and then be fully qualified to discuss Armstrong's theory on that particular issue. Why is that concept so difficult for the H&L people to grasp? Let me quote from an EF poster named Lee Farley who said it best: "One of the tactics generally fired at you from the H&L supporters, in an effort to dismiss you, is to challenge whether you have read the book. First of all - - you CANNOT READ this book in the conventional sense of reading a book. It is not a page turner. It is a reference book that contains a thinly held together narrative of nonsense." Should we suppose Lee Farley now has the last word re H&L? C'mon Parnell... The lone nut camp has made a career of late criticizing an independent JFK assassination researcher who sponsored his own researcher (time and money) privately published his own work and distributed his own work... That about right? Actually, I don't blame you for reaching to the stars. Just imagine, nutters now looking through the "looking glass." After 50 years of defending the undefendable, 'the 1964 WCR,' you guys certainly need a change of scenery... Tis the last generation of LHO did it all by his lonesome crowd, right? But ya still need to make 'no conspiracy here, ma' hay somewhere, somehow, right... lmao! Dear Mr. Healey, I'm obviously not speaking for Tracy Parnell here, but do you think everyone who is a CTer and happens to disagree with Armstrong's premises, interpretations, and/or conclusions, is a "Lone Nutter"? --Tommy

Robert, the only way I've seen this calculated is by using Wiegman in Couch and anyone can check it for themselves. Wiegman stops filming the Hesters close to 24secs after Z313*, then runs to the Newmans and Couch partially captured this event three seconds into his own film. So, it's very probable that Mal(and Jimmy) started filming within a second or two of Dave stopping or even, at the exact same time. So 24s after Z313 for the Couch frame you chose and the Wiegman frame is actually 3s before Z313. So 27 seconds between the two. *That can be worked out because Wiegman just happened to catch the limo in one frame. Speaking of Wiegman. Does a newsman that's just witnessed first hand shots and all, an attempted assassination of the President then head to the original destination of the motorcade? Well it could happen, he couldn't have know he was actually shot. While he's heading there though and with a Lem Johns on-board, there must have been more than a little speculation amongst the passengers, you would think. So when they arrive at the Trade Mart, what does Dave Wiegman do? Does he alert the cops at least? [...] 12:45pm Johns hears a broadcast over a radio that he's been hit and Dave, Tom and Lem head to Parkland. It's not concrete evidence he was as in the dark as Atkins but one might be forgiven for thinking that Dave had no clue about a shooting at all. Dear Clive, Alert the police about what? Why do you think Wiegman jumped out of his car and ran like a madman down Elm and filmed the Hester's, etc, on the Grassy Knoll? Because he thought the TSBD sniper might have been aiming for them? You ask: Why did Wiegman leave the immediate area of the TSBD if he thought the shots had come from there? Well, he had to make a quick decision, didn't he. Perhaps it was partly based on what we nowadays call "denial". "OMG, President Kennedy couldn't have been shot." --Tommy

Greg, Was FICON the predecessor to the U-2 program, or was it supplanted by it? --Tolmmy

Delighted to at least partially assist, doubting Thomas. Here is Holt from the ROKC website thread, Minor Witnesses, courtesy of Stan Dane, who, to his additional credit, correctly identifies the side (south) of Elm on which she took temporary residence: http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses So, in the spirit of amicable reciprocity, a question for a question: where are the group of Holt, Jacob, and Simmons on the south curb of Elm facing Zapruder? Dear Mr. Rigby, I don't see how Dane's paraphrasing of a FBI report / statement equates to his "correctly identifying the side (south) of Elm on which [Holt] took temporary residence." The FBI report might have been wrong. All Dane did was show us, by accurate paraphrasing, what the report said. . --Tommy

Dear Mr. Rigby, Could you please post some photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob? Or did the bad guys alter all of them? The photos, I mean. Thanks, --Tommy

Dear David, You're right. It's a shameless exploitation film. And I enjoyed it immensely. Thanks, --Tommy

Not that I know of, Robert. Although some people seem to think (or perhaps used to think) that the guy wearing the coat and tie behind Frazier is Shelley, he honestly seems to me to be too broad-shouldered to be him. And the guy seems to be wearing a hat , too. Molina said he was on the steps, so perhaps the guy behind Frazier is Molina. Shelley was caught on film an hour or so later wearing his coat over his white shirt and tie. If Shelley is on the steps in Altgens or Wiegman or Couch/Darnell, I think he must not have been wearing his coat at the time. --Tommy

Dear Robert, Why don't you spell out your current theory for us? (There's nothing wrong with having a current theory, BTW.) For example: Where was Calvery during the motorcade? Where was Shelley during the motorcade? What were Shelley and Lovelady doing 10 seconds after the final shot? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? 40 seconds? 50 seconds? One minute? Two minutes? Three minutes? Four minutes? Five minutes? Etc. Thank you in advance, --Tommy

Who intercepted it, if anyone? Was it intercepted by the Ruskies, and the info was somehow shared with the CIA / State Department? Regardless, was it a logical move by the Ruskies to make sure that the U S Embassy didn't receive it? Or is it more logical to assume that it wasn't intercepted -- that the U S Embassy did receive it, and did not reply to it, but forwarded it to the CIA? --Tommy

Robert, I thought Ruby had said that to them after he'd died. --Tommy PS I do agree that the timing of the missing letter and the opening of Oswald's 201 file looks suspicious.

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression. This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign. "On Sept. 19, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long. So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes. Gary Mack" I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh? Dear Robert, Not sure what you're getting at regarding Shelley. Can you see his distinctive hair style in the photo in which he's walking with Arce and Williams and Detective Brown to the police car? Good! Well, that's a start at least. If you look closely you can see that the man I claim is Shelley in Couch / Darnell has the same combed-up-in-front hairdoo in about half of the frames, which leads me to believe that we really are seeing that hairdo on him and not just "aberrations" or "artifacts" attendant to the film's development, poor resolution, etc. Couch/Darnell Another good view of Shelley (L. and R.) and his hairdo (R.). Credit: Gerda Dunckel (Shelley on far right; Detective C. W. Brown in flashing red circle) --Tommy bumped

Jon, Are you saying there may have been two boys who looked kinda alike and were about the same age and that they both had the legal name "Lee Harvey Oswald"? And that one of these boys was eventually murdered by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63, and the other one was his chosen doppelganger for ten or so years? --Tommy

Shelley and Lovelady could have fibbed a little in their affidavits and also gotten the sequence of events mixed up. The Couch / Darnell gif that Clive posted a few days ago shows "Shelley" and "Lovelady" apparently crossing over to "the park" (the extension of the 'island') after Running Woman has passed them. If so, then maybe that's when they had their conference with Gloria Calvery. Over there on the "island." Regarding the timing, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out given the fact that Couch panned down towards the triple overpass and "caught" several cars, motorcycles, and known people in the general area of Elm Street and the Grassy Knoll. Let us know what you come up with, Robert. --Tommy PS What makes you think that Shelley spoke with Calvery on the concrete island and then walked partway down Elm Street Extension? Maybe it was the other way around. Or maybe they never spoke at all. Except at her wedding, of course.

Robert, How much time do you want? Fifteen seconds? Twenty? Forty-five? A minute-and-a-half? What works best for you, Robert? How far away do you think Running Woman was when she started running? Did she run all the way from where she was standing during the motorcade? PS I'm guessing 30 seconds. What's your guess? --Tommy

Greg, Bravo! --Tommy

Greg, You mean to tell me that the person who wrote that sentence in red had the gall to not even source where they got that "information" from? Not surprising, actually. --Tommy

Jon, What do you think was the full legal name of the person Marina married in the U.S.S.R.? Thanks, --Tommy

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression. This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign. "On Sept. 19, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long. So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes. Gary Mack" I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh? Not sure what you're getting at regarding Shelley, Robert. Can you see his distinctive hair style in the photo in which he's walking with Arce and Williams and Detective Brown to the police car? Good! Well, that's a start at least. If you look closely you can see that the man I claim is Shelley in the Couch / Darnell gif Clive posted has the same combed-up-in-front hairdoo in about half of the frames, which leads me to believe that we really are seeing that hairdo on him and not just "aberrations" or "artifacts" attendant to the film's development, poor resolution, etc. Edit: Another good view of Shelley (L. and R.) and his hairdo (R.). Credit: Gerda Dunckel (Shelley on far right; Detective C. W. Brown in flashing red circle) --Tommy

Clive, Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168, I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady [edit 12/5/15 : Shelley] because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted. Shelley circled in red: --Tommy