Thomas Graves

As usual, Tommy, it's difficult for me to tell when you're being sarcastic or not. Are you saying that you, yourself, have no solid evidence against Ruth Paine to make us believe she was part of a CIA plot to murder JFK and frame LHO for the murder? Is that your opinion? Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Twist it any old way you want to. --Tommy

Martin, Dick Clark? https://youtu.be/MT9QZBGyXjU --Tommy

[...] n that photograph of the tall man in the suit scratching the back of his neck with his right hand, we see the back of his hand as well as the fingertips -- and to me the back of his hand looks white. The man in the photograph has his back to the camera, and all we have to go on is his neck, his hair, and his right hand. In my subjective impression the man is was white. [...] Dear Paul, Questions: Why doesn't the skin on the back of "Neck Scratcher's" neck appear to be as light-colored as the sides and tops of his fingers? Do you think his fingers were in more direct (or indirect) light in the video than the back of his neck, making the back of his neck appear to be darker than it really was? If he's a white man, wouldn't you expect him to have a white neck? Why does he appear to have a dark neck? Do you actually think he has a white neck in the video? Answer: That's why I suggested that you rapidly freeze-frame (quickly go click-click, click-click, click-click, click-click, ... ) on the other suited guy who walks in from the left at 3:53 point 5 (just before "Neck Scratcher" does), so you could see that the first guy is a white guy, and so you could compare the first guy's very white neck and side of face in that very short lived "freeze-frame" with "Neck Scratcher's" neck under similar lighting conditions, and you could see that "Neck Sctatcher's" neck was considerably darker that the first guy's. But you know something? It feels like I'm trying to lead a mule to water. --Tommy

Paul, Whether you're right or wrong about that, why don't you just declare yourself "The Winner"? --Tommy No, that wouldn't be satisfactory. I want to hear what SOLID EVIDENCE that people have genuinely claimed to have against Ruth Paine after 50 years of nagging. Without the flimsy guesswork of DiEugenio/Hewett, there appear to be crickets -- only the sound of crickets. Come on, people. Surely there was more to your rancorous complaining than THAT. Regards, --Paul Trejo I hereby declare Paul Trejo "The Winner." --Tommy

Paul, Whether you're right or wrong about that, why don't you just declare yourself "The Winner"? --Tommy

Oh, I see the scar above the left eye, Tommy. I agree with that part of your scenario. That's David Morales in all those scenarios. When I referred to the "second photo" I was referring to the one from a larger photograph taken in 1966 which a camera strap. In that photo Morales could easily be mistaken for a Negro, as some witnesses suggested on 11/23/1963 they saw a Negro at or around the TSBD building looking suspicious. One witness said he saw a Negro on the 6th floor with a rifle. Could it be Morales? Perhaps. Could Morales have been driving the car that Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw? Perhaps. My only point was that the film clip showing the tall slender man in a full suit with his back to the camera, scratching the back of his neck with his right hand -- well, his hand looks WHITE to me. The thing about folks with dark-complexions like David Morales is, they're dark all over. So, I doubt that guy would be David Morales. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, I disagree with your statement that, in so many words, "dark-skinned people are dark all over." Haven't you ever noticed, for example, that the palms and bottoms of the fingers of Black people are the same color as white folks'? Oh well, at least I got you to admit that Morales had a scar that ran up his forehead an inch or two from his left eyebrow. Since getting you to make any concession is like pulling teeth, I take that as a major accomplishment! BTW, I wouldn't say that "Neck Scratcher" was "slender." The word "slender" connotes the word "skinny" in my mind. It's just more politically / socially correct to use the former in describing an in-law, for example. I'd say "Neck Scratcher" had a very powerful, muscular, athletic build, like a light-heavyweight fighter, or a quarterback. or a safety. He definitely was not slender / skinny. --Tommy

Jon, Believe it or not,...... I agree. Oh God, I can't believe I just said that. --Tommy

Oh brother. Yes, his fingers are light colored, but the top of his hand is dark. It's interesting to see how you try to twist and stretch the truth to your advantage not only in your interpretation of written documents, but photographic documents, as well. Didn't you make the effort to "freeze frame" the guy who walks in from the left at 3:53-3:54 just before "Neck Scratcher"? You know, so you can compare the skin color of the backs of their necks? Your failure to mention that is telling. LOL --Tommy

LOL Great find my ... Anyone here besides me old enough to remember Ed "Kookie" Byrnes of the immensely popular TV series 77 Sunset Strip? "Kookie" influenced thousands (if not millions) of us male teenagers and young men to style our hair like his. "Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb" from 1959!!! --Tommy

Second photo? Which "second photo," Paul? Geez. BTW, can you or can you not see the 45-degree scar I'm talking about on and above Morales' left eyebrow? --Tommy

Well, once again, Tommy, I see the tall, athletic-looking man wearing a grey suit and scratching the back of his neck while standing, with his back to the camera, around 3:55 to 3:58 of the Jim Doyle film. First, the guy doesn't seem to have a dark-complexion to me, i.e. we can't see his face, but we can see his hand as he scratches the back of his neck, and his hand is WHITE. But, are you saying that you can recognize the same man from another photographic sample -- also from the BACKSIDE? Regards, --Paul Trejo You must be visually impaired then, Paul. Can't you see the dark-ish skin on the back of his neck between his collar and his hair line? --Tommy PS Anyone else want to weigh in on this, or am I stuck with only Paul Trejo? The guy I'm talking about walks in from the left, scratching his neck, around 3:55 in this video: Something I've just now noticed. If you "freeze frame" the white guy in the dark suit who walks in from the left (between 3:53 and 3:54 --ya gotta be quick) just before "Neck Scratcher" walks in from the left, you'll be able to compare the color of their respective skins (the backs of their necks, to be exact), and you'll see that "Neck Scratcher's" skin is considerably darker that the white guy's. PS The back of "Neck Scratcher's" hand is dark. His fingers are light in color, but the side and the back of his hand are dark. Just like the back of his neck between his collar and his hairline.

Dear Paul, Why don't you start your own thread on Bill Shelley? Inquiring minds want to know. --Tommy PS Do you really think that the baby-faced guy at 3:19 in the Black Op Radio video is 38-year-old Bill Shelley?

Dear Paul, Haven't you noticed how almost nobody on this forum is interested in what you think anymore? Sincerely, --Tommy

Jon, Going from memory here but I believe that sixteen year-old amateur photographer James "Jim" Doyle (since deceased) observed Oswald's being watched closely and and being photographed by a man using an "exceedingly expensive" camera the day Oswald and Bringuier and two other Cubans were arrested for disturbing the peace, on August 9, 1963. Doyle said that the man with the camera kinda stuck out because he was wearing a grey suit on a hot New Orleans day when most of the other men wear wearing short-sleeved shirts. Also, in the notes made by a journalist (Billings?) who "helped" Jim Garrison in his investigation there is reference to a "shepherd," apparently spotted at Oswald's leafletings, including at Oswald's brief Maison Blanche Building leafleting by, of all people, Carlos Bringuier and his young sidekick Miguel Cruz, and that the "shepherd" was wearing a coat and tie and sunglasses and was taking pictures of Oswald. Billings wrote that, according to Garrison, the "shepherd" had a 1-inch scar on his left eye brow. Billings or Garrison apparently wondered whether or not this same "shepherd" dude might have been the driver of the "tan station wagon." I assume that what they are referring to is the station wagon that Orest Pena or one of his friends saw (a couple of days after the notorious Oswald-vomiting-the-lemonade-on-the-bar incident at Pena's bar in New Orleans) in which car was riding the commie-speaking Mexican-looking dude who had accompanied Oswald into the bar a few days or nights earlier. Edit: More likely, Billings / Garrison were referring to the suspicious station wagon that Roger Craig and Richard Carr saw in Dealey Plaza right after the assassination. http://www.jfk-online.com/billings4.html In the Jim Doyle film you can see a tall, athletic-looking man wearing a grey suit and scratching the back of his neck while standing, with his back to the camera and right in front of it, watching Oswald who is walking past him and apparently wearing his "Viva La Fidel" sign, as reported by Doyle's younger sister, who also witnessed the event. To see the guy I'm talking about, go to 3:55 of this youtube video; you'll see him walk in from the left and "scratching" the back of his neck (probably thinking that he's cleverly pointing out Oswald for photographer John T. Martin, but it's not Martin who's filming behind him -- it's 16-year-old Jim Doyle!). FWIW, I believe you can see the back of the same large, dark-complected man wearing the same suit in a photo taken a few minutes after the assassination, standing in the crowd and watching the goings-on in front of the TSBD, but interestingly, facing in the direction of the Terminal Annex Building where Harry Holmes' fifth-floor office was situated... --Tommy drastically edited and expanded on 11/07/15, and bumped bumped again, in spite of 'jacker Paul Trejo

Jon, Going from memory here but I believe that sixteen year-old amateur photographer James "Jim" Doyle (since deceased) observed Oswald's being watched closely and and being photographed by a man using an "exceedingly expensive" camera the day Oswald and Bringuier and two other Cubans were arrested for disturbing the peace, on August 9, 1963. Doyle said that the man with the camera kinda stuck out because he was wearing a grey suit on a hot New Orleans day when most of the other men wear wearing short-sleeved shirts. Also, in the notes made by a journalist (Billings?) who "helped" Jim Garrison in his investigation there is reference to a "shepherd," apparently spotted at Oswald's leafletings, including at Oswald's brief Maison Blanche Building leafleting by, of all people, Carlos Bringuier and his young sidekick Miguel Cruz, and that the "shepherd" was wearing a coat and tie and sunglasses and was taking pictures of Oswald. Billings wrote that, according to Garrison, the "shepherd" had a 1-inch scar on his left eye brow. Billings or Garrison apparently wondered whether or not this same "shepherd" dude might have been the driver of the "tan station wagon." I assume that what they are referring to is the station wagon that Orest Pena or one of his friends saw (a couple of days after the notorious Oswald-vomiting-the-lemonade-on-the-bar incident at Pena's bar in New Orleans) in which car was riding the commie-speaking Mexican-looking dude who had accompanied Oswald into the bar a few days or nights earlier. Edit: More likely, Billings / Garrison were referring to the suspicious station wagon that Roger Craig and Richard Carr saw in Dealey Plaza right after the assassination. http://www.jfk-online.com/billings4.html In the Jim Doyle film you can see a tall, athletic-looking man wearing a grey suit and scratching the back of his neck while standing, with his back to the camera and right in front of it, watching Oswald who is walking past him and apparently wearing his "Viva La Fidel" sign, as reported by Doyle's younger sister, who also witnessed the event. To see the guy I'm talking about, go to 3:55 of this youtube video; you'll see him walk in from the left and "scratching" the back of his neck (probably thinking that he's cleverly pointing out Oswald for photographer John T. Martin, but it's not Martin who's filming behind him -- it's 16-year-old Jim Doyle!). FWIW, I believe you can see the back of the same large, dark-complected man wearing the same suit in photos and / or films taken a few minutes after the assassination, standing in the crowd and watching the goings-on in front of the TSBD, but interestingly, facing in the direction of the Terminal Annex Building where Harry Holmes' fifth-floor office was situated... --Tommy bumped

Well, Jon, you should know. You're a conspiracy theorist, aren't you? BTW, Please tell us again when it was that the bad guys decided to frame "Odd Duck Oswald" (Harvey's wife's husband, if you prefer) because he was so ... well, ... conveniently situated for them, and because he was, after all, such ... an ... "Odd Duck," just begging to be "framed" (but not "set up", mind you). Five minutes before the assassination, or five minutes after? --Tommy

Jon, Are you a dangle? Hmmm? --Tommy

Well, Peculiarly Pedantic Paul, We already know that, don't we. Do you enjoy lecturing? --Tommy

Chris, Possible teenager John T. "Jack" Martin from Minnesota filmed Oswald while visiting New Orleans on August 9, 1963, the same day that sixteen-year-old Jim Doyle and his eleven-year-old sister shot the very same Oswald leafletting incident at which Oswald, Bringuier, Cruz. and one other anti-Castro Cuban were arrested for disturbing the peace. This August 9 incident is not to be confused with Oswald's leafletting activity in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart on August 16, during which Oswald was assisted by paid worker Charles Steele and an unknown Hispanic-looking guy, and nobody was arrested. Thanks for asking! --Tommy I believe that the scar I've been talking about (which is barely visible on and over Morales' left eye in the upper right photo) is much more visible in the lower left photo. If you look very closely, you can even see it in his high school photo, which leads me to believe it was from an old high school football injury, which sport Morales played, according to his old high school buddy, Ruben Carbajal. --Tommy The reason I think Morales' scar is important is because a Garrison researcher, Life Magazine's Richard Billings, wrote in his notes in 1967: "More on Spanish trace... Giant [Jim Garrison] says the shepherd has a one-inch scar on his left eyebrow. He was also seen by Bringuier and Miguel Cruz at Maison Blanche when Oswald passing out leaflets." Note: The "Maison Blanche" was a large old building where Dean Andrews had his law office on the sixth floor, only two blocks from where Oswald, Bringuier, and Cruz were arrested on August 9 in the 700 block of Canal Street. After the assassination, Andrews said he had seen Oswald passing out leaflets in front of this building, and that Oswald told him it was just a $25 "job" ... "He [the "shepherd"] was wearing a coat and tie and sunglasses... He was taking pictures of Oswald." [emphasis added] http://www.jfk-online.com/billings4.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Billings' notes, he wonders if "Spanish Trace" might have been the dark-complected driver of the "getaway" Rambler station wagon in Dallas. rhereby suggesting that "Spanish Trace / Shepherd" was both dark-complected and Mexican-looking. David Sanchez Morales was half Spanish and half Yaqui Indian, and was so dark-complected that his nickname was "El Indio. The photo below is of Morales and is cropped from a larger photograph taken of him in Chile or Peru in 1966. I have seen the larger photo on the Internet. It shows a 35mm camera hanging in front of Morales' chest. I can't find that larger photo right now, but a least we can see the camera's strap in this one. FWIW, 16-year-old amateur photographer Jim Doyle, who filmed Oswald's arguing with Bringuier and being arrested, said that the guy monitoring Oswald on August 9 was wearing a grey suit and taking pictures of Oswald with an expensive-looking camera. --Tommy bumped

Thanks Tommy, I actually had this one already, but the PM site is new to me, also. Are the dates for Shelly that I posted correct? Tom Tom, I wouldn't know. That's why I had to read his WC testimony and then, based on his self-described work history and the fact that he said his education consisted of just high school, guess at his age. I'm afraid I'm not much of a researcher. Too lazy I guess. LOL. --Tommy

Tom, It was very, very easy. Just googled, in quotation marks, "bill shelley" and then clicked on IMAGES and scrolled down a bit. And wah law, this is what I just now came up with -- a great, new (to me) website called Prayer Man. Enjoy! http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/ --Tommy

Tom, Yes, that's definitely Bill Shelley. Detective C.W. Brown is back to the left on the sidewalk, outside of this particular cropped frame, and I believe Detective Senkel is hovering somewhere in the background, also out of this cropped frame. In case you didn't know, Shelley was photographically "captured" that afternoon (wearing tie but sans coat), drinking coffee just inside the TSBD front doors (with some guys who look like reporters). FWIW, I wonder if Martin Blank's "Shelley" in the Oswald-in-front-of-the-New-Orleans-Trade-Mart-on-August-16th doesn't look too young to be the William H. Shelley who was filmed / photographed in Dallas on November 22nd? In his testimony, Shelley said that he had worked "in defense plants a little during the (2nd World) War," and then started working at the TSBD on October 29, 1945. So I'm guessing that he was born around 1925, making him 38 years old in 1963. Question: Does Martin Blank's "Shelley" (in New Orleans) look like the fissure-faced 38 year old we see in Dallas, or more like a "peaches 'n cream" faced twenty-eight-year-old? --Tommy