Thomas Graves

Robert, Turns out they got her husband's middle initial wrong in Gloria's WC statement, and you've mis-spelled her last name. As have many, many, many other "researchers," so don't feel bad. Here's her WC statement. Note the "e" in Calvery. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0334b.htm Her husband's name was Robert L. Calvery. They divorced in 1978. http://marriage-divorce-records.mooseroots.com/l/54825526/Robert-L-Calvery Gloria J. Calvery's maiden name was Gloria Jean Little. She was born in 1942, probably in Bonham, Texas. She was raised in Grand Prairie, Texas, not far from Fort Worth. Here's her mother's obituary: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/obituary.aspx?n=ila-mae-little&pid=86457565 Gloria's brother is still alive and viewable on the Internet, if you know where to look. FWIW, He looks 100% Caucasian (white). Edit: This is Gloria's father, James Stewart Little. It says he was white. http://www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/Texas/James-S-Little_5lh7g3 --Tommy

The Couch clip was five or six seconds long. This is the final part of it. Just noticed: The two children on the right seem to be trying to get attention of their father, who spins around towards them. Question: Is Karen Westbrook, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, or Gloria Calvery visible in this clip? --Tommy edited and bumped

The Couch clip was five or six seconds long. This is the final part of it. Just noticed: The two children on the right seem to be trying to get attention of their father, who spins around towards them. Question: Is Karen Westbrook, Carol Reed, Karen Hicks, or Gloria Calvery (maiden name: Gloria Jean Little, born 1942) visible in this clip? --Tommy

I don't think his sleeves are rolled up. Note how his wrist is thinner than the light gray sleeve (on his lower arm) which stops right above his wrist. Separate issue: How are we to know whether that's the "heater in the vestibule" or his left hand? --Tommy

Couch and Darnell didn't start filming until about 20 seconds after the fatal head shot. --Tommy

Yes, Bart. I think I alluded to that in post # 21. --Tommy

Robert, I guess you've proved it -- Baker didn't run up the front steps. Instead, he ran real hard across the Elm Street Extension from his motorcycle and then turned sharply to the right and ran down the sidewalk for some very puzzling reason. But if he was running to the corner or to the side of the TSBD (and why would he do that?) from the very beginning, why didn't he take the shortest path from his motorcycle and run all the way down the street, instead? Very puzzling, indeed. --Tommy edited and bumped

Hi Vanessa, Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad to see you're still around. Robert Prudhomme has pointed out that Baker actually veers and runs behind the guy who is sidestepping out of Baker's way, motioning him up the steps. But you're right -- the suited guy obviously thought that Baker was going to run up the steps, as did at least two women in the Darnell clip who seem to be scurrying out of Baker's way. I've incorporated most of this in my new thread, "Gerda Dunckel's Synchronized Couch and Darnell Clips." --Tommy

And Truly, whom I believe Sean Murphy originally spotted? Didn't he say Baker went through the front door? --Tommy PS I think the big guy seen turning in the middle might be the elusive Jack Dougherty, whom Truly called "a great big burly fellow." Robert, Just to be clear, I think Truly is the guy circled in red, above. As you can see, he is not all that "near the base of the stairs," as you claim, but more in the middle of the street.. [stabilized, Slow Motion Darnell clip. Credit Gerda Dunckel] Edited and bumped.

Deleted. I bumped the wrong post.

And Truly, whom I believe Sean Murphy originally spotted? Didn't he say Baker went through the front door? --Tommy PS I think the big guy seen turning in the middle is the elusive Jack Dougherty, whom Truly called "a great big burly fellow." Robert, Just to be clear, I think Truly is the guy circled in red, above. As you can see, he is not all that "near the base of the stairs," as you claim, but more in the middle of the street.. [...] --Tommy [...] [stabilized, Slow Motion Darnell clip. Credit Gerda Dunckel]

Well, at least he told the truth about the limo's stopping, right? I's amazing how those crafty devils would mix in a little truth with a whole lot of lies, huh? The point I think he was trying to make is that there was a lot of commotion going on around him, a lot of people were either running or walking towards the TSBD front entrance, and this motivated him to go there, too. --Tommy

Holy Toledo! They carried him there? I certainly don't see that in the film. I only see four or five people running towards it around him, a bunch of people walking towards it around him, and several people walking up the steps in front of him. But I don't see them carrying him for crying out loud. My God, what a prevaricator he was! --Tommy

Gee, I don't know Robert. Say what? That Jack Dougherty was a "great big husky fellow?" Yes, I suppose he would, wouldn't he. --Tommy

And Truly, whom I believe Sean Murphy originally spotted? Didn't he say Baker went through the front door? --Tommy PS I think the big guy seen turning in the middle is the elusive Jack Dougherty, whom Truly called "a great big burly fellow."

Yes, Robert. There was. So are you convinced that Baker didn't run up the steps? Yes or No. --Tommy

Robert, I guess you've proved it -- Baker didn't run up the front steps. Instead, he ran real fast across the Elm Street Extension, jumped up on the sidewalk, and continued running towards the corner for some very puzzling reason. If he was running to the corner (why would he do that?) from the very beginning, why wouldn't he have taken the shortest path from his motorcycle and run diagonally down the street, instead? --Tommy

Robert, Maybe a better way to put it is that no witness on the steps said they remembered seeing Baker enter the TSBD. Or no witness on the steps reported seeing Baker enter. Question: Were any of the witnesses on the steps asked if they saw Baker enter the TSBD? If not, would you expect them to volunteer it? I think Baker veered to the right so he could go up the less-crowded middle or right part of the steps. Why would he run such a long distance directly towards the front entrance if he didn't intend to enter it? --Tommy

On hold for more "analysis." You might be right, Robert. Meanwhile, for your viewing pleasure, a great stabilized, "slow mo" Darnell gif by Gerda Dunckel which shows Baker running between my big, turning "Jack Dougherty" and the dark-suited guy who sidesteps out of the way and motions Baker up the steps with his left hand. Baker runs behind that guy, not in front of him as I previously thought. Darnell sequence. 94 frames, 6 frames per second, 5.9 MB So, it looks like you're correct, Robert. Why would Baker veer and go to the right? To go up the less-crowded middle or right part of the steps, perhaps? --Tommy

Robert, I looked for it for quite awhile, today, but to no avail. I know I saw it just yesterday and I'm pretty sure it was on a long thread started by Gerda Dunckel on jfkassassinationforum.net called "Couch Film / Lovelady and Shelley?" http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php It's a still from Darnell, actually, and it shows a man's leg sticking out and "hovering" over the first step, and the leg could only belong to Baker, whose body is hidden behind some other people who are just kind of standing there at the base of the steps. I'll keep looking for it occasionally and I will post it when I find it. It's kinda frustrating... --Tommy Robert, This is the best I can do for now. It's from page 10 of the thread I mentioned. [Credit: Gerda Dunckel] --Tommy PS Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but I doubt that Baker stopped on a dime here and said, "Naw, I don't think I'll go up these steps. I think I'll go inside the building through another door." I could have sworn I saw a better "still."

Robert, I looked for it for quite awhile, today, but to no avail. I know I saw it just yesterday and I'm pretty sure it was on a long thread started by Gerda Dunckel on jfkassassinationforum.net called "Couch Film / Lovelady and Shelley?" http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php It's a still from Darnell, actually, and it shows a man's leg sticking out and "hovering" over the first step, and the leg could only belong to Baker, whose body is hidden behind some other people who are just kind of standing there at the base of the steps. I'll keep looking for it occasionally and I will post it when I find it. It's kinda frustrating... --Tommy

Edit: Whatever it was you said, Greg, I completely agree. LOL --Tommy PS -- A question for the H&L crowd: What did "Lee" tell his friends and acquaintances in the U.S. when he was sill supposed to be in the U.S.S.R.? "I'm just visiting for a couple of days. I'm going back to Minsk next week?"

Thanks, Duncan, marvelous gif by Gerda. And what do you know, here's Roy Truly: Watch the gif closely and you see Baker actually push him out of the way. I think the big guy turning and lumbering towards the TSBD could be the elusive Jack Edwin Dougherty. If you look closely, at the very beginning of the clip "Truly" has his head turned in his direction (see how much of "Truly's" white shirt you can see?) and they're looking at each other and I can imagine that "Truly" might be saying something to him like, "Get back in the building!" In his WC testimony, Truly said that Dougherty was a "great big burly fellow" who liked to work and wasn't interested in girls. Well, fwiw, there's something about how the big guy is "broad in the beam" and has his pants pulled up real high that tells me he isn't a real big hit with the ladies. Is he wearing some kind of cap? Glasses? --Tommy

[lost upon editing; luckily I had saved it in my word processing program] -- Yes he did, Clive. In post # 174 to be exact. It only took me half an hour to find it. Thanks. So they were taken during the same "session." Great! That should help us determine, from context, whether all of the photos taken of "Oswald" during that session were taken of your "Harvey" or your "Lee." The problem is, it's hard to know what you think your "Lee" looked like. All I've heard from the H&L folks so far is, "Well, since it would have been impossible for the bad guys to chose two unrelated boys who would grow up to look just like each other several years later, it's obvious that Harvey and Lee must have looked just barely enough alike to fool a whole lot of people." Question: What did "Lee" tell his friends, family, and acquaintances in the U.S. during the period of time that he was supposed to still be in the U.S.S.R.? "I just came back for a short visit. I'll be going back to Minsk in a couple of days?" Question: Did the bad guys wash out and alter the "Frankenstein" photo of Lee so that people in Russia who subscribed to the Fort Worth Star Telegram would think that defector ("Harvey") was the person whose photo was in the paper and that his name was therefore "Lee Harvey Oswald"? Or do you contend that the fat-nosed, large-mouthed Oswald in the "Frankenstein" photo was what "Lee" really looked like? Something doesn't add up here. How can "Harvey" look so darn much like "Lee" at times, but so dissimilar at other times? I say that "Marina's husband" was Lee Harvey Oswald and that there was no "Harvey." But we could go round and round in circles forever on it. And we would never convince each other would we. Question: Have any of the Harvey and Lee crowd put together a two lists of photographs, one of "Harvey" and one of "Lee"? Or is that something that's impossible to do, except based on their respective timelines and when each photograph was taken and where? If they looked sufficiently dissimilar that their photographs can be sorted correctly just by looking at them, are there any photographs of them in existence which are problematic for the Harvey and Lee people in that regard? In other words, photos of an "Oswald" which the H & L folks don't know if they should put in the "Harvey" folder or the "Lee" folder? That would be interesting, but I seriously doubt it. Because the beautiful thing about the Harvey and Lee theory is that it's so doggone flexible, and that "Harvey" and "Lee" could at any time look sufficiently alike, or sufficiently unalike to fulfill it's requirements. --Tommy Thanks, Tracy. now let me bump this because the original got lost and I had to reconstruct it

Jim, Why didn't you post the whole book? LOL Kittrell was a bit of a nut case, described as a "frustrated old maid" and somewhat "squirrelly" by her boss. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60400&search=kittrell#relPageId=196&tab=page She thought some voting machines in Dallas had been purposefully broken and persistently insisted that the FBI correct the problem. One-and-one-half years after the assassination, she sent a rambling, handwritten (and literally slanted) fourteen-page letter to Attorney General Robert Kennedy about her experiences regarding "The Two Oswalds" at the Fort Worth TEC. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60400&search=kittrell#relPageId=203&tab=page She doesn't come across as a credible witness to me. BTW, The guy in the black motorcycle jacket does sound like Larry Crafard, although Kittrell doesn't say anything about his missing front teeth. Maybe she found that so gosh darn unpleasant to look at that she blotted it out from her old maid memory. Or maybe Crafard didn't smile much or open his mouth very much when he spoke. The long-sleeved motorcycle jacket would have covered his tattoos, wouldn't it. You quoted Armstrong: "In early October (probably October 8th) Laura was interviewing a colored woman who wanted to quit domestic employment and find work as a trainee in an electronics factory. During the interview the woman told Laura that she used to work as a maid for [...] Murray Chotiner in California." Why would the black lady "drop" Chotiner's name unless Chotiner was well known outside of California, too, and the lady thought the fact she had worked for him would impress Kittrell? Chotiner was already well known when he was Nixon's vice presidential campaign manager during the 1952 elections, and would have received national "press" in that regard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Chotiner Also, an infamous double murder occurred in attorney / former Nixon campaign manager Chotiner's office in July of 1957, and it received a lot of publicity immediately afterwards and during the trial, at which Chotiner was a major witness. Chotinier was even considered a suspect for a while. http://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/2d/174/281.html Lastly, why did Kitterell express in her June, 1965, letter to RFK that she had been very reluctant to mention the Fort Worth TEC "Chotiner incident" in it if not for the fact that Kitterell was already aware of Chotinier's notoriety and knew that many other people were aware of it, too? Therefore, it's not surprising that the guy in the black motorcycle jacket had heard of Chotiner, especially if that guy was Larry Crafard, employee of Jack Ruby, whom some say was introduced to Nixon by Chotinier in 1947. http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/fact-check/fact-check-did-richard-nixon-know-jack-ruby/ You know, Jim, I'm starting to think that Larry Crafard and The Two Oswalds were chosen many, many years earlier to participate in the Harvey and Lee and Larry tripleganger project because they all looked so much alike. LOL --Tommy edited and bumped You say Ms. Kittrell "was a bit of a nut case," but that is your description, not that of her boss. Being a "frustrated old maid" and "squirrelly" is hardly a description of a "nut case." I'm shocked, SHOCKED that anyone would think voting machines in Big City elections could POSSIBLY be rigged! She did indeed send a fourteen page later to Robert Kennedy about her interview of the two men claiming to be Lee Harvey Oswald. You offer this information in an attempt to impeach her? You say "maybe Crafard didn't smile much or open his mouth," but Kittrell said the second Oswald laughed so loudly everyone in her office could hear him. You ask, "Why would the black lady 'drop' Chotiner's name unless Chotiner was well known outside of California?" BECAUSE HE WAS HER EMPLOYER! It was a job reference! Can you name the campaign manager of any vice presedential candidate ever, other than Chotiner? Doesn't sound very famous to me. Chotiner also worked for a California Republican Senator named Knowland and was an ALTERNATE delegate to the Republican National Convention in Chicago. Wow! There's national fame! Kittrell probably referred to the "Chotiner incident" because the mention of that name by the black woman is what started the incident with the first Oswald (Harvey). Jim, How many successful Vice Presidential campaign managers have also had, a few years later, a double homicide committed in their office by one of their law clients? Why was Ms. Kittrell so darn worried about mentioning "Maury Chotiner" in her 1965 letter to RFK? Because he was so unknown? --Tommy