Thomas Graves

Shelley's testimony is suspect on many counts, but I don't think he's Prayer Man because of the clothing differences. It seems you can barely make out Prayer Man's t-shirt or bare chest under his dark shirt. Shelley was wearing a suit and tie that day. --Tommy

Maybe it's a case of "Top step" vs. "Landing," and different people referring to them in different ways --Tommy

Dear Bob, If "Prayer Man" wasn't Oswald, who do you think he or she might have been? Respectfully, --Tommy

You're looking at the wrong guy, Bill. We're talking about two different grey-suit-wearing men. Please watch it again, starting at 3:50. At 3:55 Neck Scratcher (Morales?) walks up and stands right behind the guy with the bald spot you're talking about. The guy you're talking about is also wearing a grey suit. The guy you're talking about is wearing glasses and has a bald spot and you can see a few seconds later, after the camera position has changed, that the guy you're talking about is holding a bunch of stuff in his hands.. Both of the men in grey suits can be seen simultaneously at 3:55-3:56 and you can see the bald spot on the guy standing in front of Neck Scratcher (Morales?). I think the guy who is scratching his neck and standing behind the guy with the bald spot is David Sanchez Morales. --Tommy bumped one last time for Bill Simpich Everyone, Please see my new post on Morales on the "Who Killed Bobby?" thread. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13105#entry299808 --Tommy bumped

Vanessa, Here it is, but now I'm not sure it was a telegram. Maybe a letter. Mailed / sent on 11/24, not 11/22. My bad. Det. Paul Bentley Dallas Police Dept. Dallas, Texas 7960 June Lake Dr. San Diego, 19, Calf. 24 Nov. 1963 Dear Paul, Perhaps you are aware that ONI has quite a file on Oswald, which no doubt has been made avbailable on the Washington level. If not I am certain that this information can be obtained for you through our resident special agent in charge of our Dallas office, A.C. Sullivan, who is a wonderful agent, and whom I hope you know. As a personal friend I congratulate you - wish you continued success - and pray that your guardian angel will remain close at hand and vigilant, always. Respectifully, Robert D. Steel Commander USNR-R Originally posted by the illustrious Bill Kelly. Spelling errors are Kelly's. http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/01/dallas-police-detective-paul-bentley.html --Tommy

Vanessa, I didn't know that, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised. I do know that the Terminal Annex Building was a federal building and had a lot of federal offices in it, including a Navy Recruiting Office in 1962 and perhaps later. Are you sure you aren't confusing Dealey Plaza with Bannister's office in New Orleans, which was supposedly within walking distance of the offices where the "big boys" (CIA, ONI, FBI, etc) worked? But I digress yet again. What do you say we get back to trying to prove that Prayer man was Oswald so that we will know for sure that he didn't do it. LOL --Tommy

Vanessa, He told me he was "the best investigator the ONI had" (bragging to me a few times that his IQ was 170), so he traveled a lot, investigating the really important stuff for the Navy. He was from Texas and knew a lot of the ONI and FBI and CIA people in Dallas and traveled there quite a bit. But to answer your question, he was living in San Diego at the time and was assigned to the old Eleventh Naval District. From a Wikipedia article: "The Eleventh Naval District, headquartered at the Lake Training Station in Lake Bluff, Illinois, was established on 7 May 1903 in accordance with General Order No. 128, signed by Acting Secretary of the Navy Charles H. Darling. The district was activated in 1911 as part of a larger administrative unit known as the "Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Naval Districts." In 1920 the Eleventh Naval District became a separate Naval District. In 1945 the district was headquartered at San Diego, California, and consisted of the following geographic areas:New Mexico; Arizona; Clark County, Nevada; southern part of California, including Counties of Santa Barbara, Kern, and San Bernardino, and all counties south thereof. The Eleventh Naval District was disestablished on 30 September 1980." --Tommy PS We became aware of him because he sent his friend Paul Bentley, the polygraph officer at the Dallas Police Department, a telegram on the evening of 11/22/63 11/24/63 congratulating him for his role in the arresting of Oswald at the Texas Theater.

Vanessa, Good one! Btw, when I asked him where the ONI office was situated in Dallas in 1963, he said, "It was across the street (from the TSBD?), it was in the Postal building (the Terminal Annex Building had a post office in it !), it was in the building Kennedy was killed from ("killed from" meaning where the command center / observation center was located? -- maybe even Harry Holmes' upper floor office?) " But I digress, again. --Tommy

Vanessa, Everyone can remember where they were and what they were doing except, of course, the retired ONI special agent, Robert David Steel, who told me he had "very probably" done the investigation of Oswald at El Toro when Oswald defected to Russia, who was a good friend of Oswald's arrester, Paul Bentley, and whom I interviewed on tape a few years ago (and which tape I am still waiting for Bill Kelly to return to me). Steele could remember how long his small WW II ship (USS Sea Scout) was, where he was when he heard that Pearl Harbor had been attacked (Brownwood, Texas), but for the life of him he couldn't seem to remember where he was when he heard JFK had been shot. But I digress. --Tommy

Could this be him Mark? This seems to be more likely him That's Euins talking with the policeman, but obviously the photo was taken after the assassination. --Tommy

Jon, with respect: did Oswald really go to Russia and easily return, sans consequence, without connivance from above? Would someone who had defected and returned with a Russian wife not be useful in stateside intelligence as an infiltrator of both left groups and right groups? This is what I have meant in using the word "dangle." If this is a unique situation in intelligence work, then perhaps it existed singularly to motivate Oswald and steer him toward set-up as a patsy for any action that could be blamed on a right group or a left group (or left government). Or blamed on a lone-nut, wannabe political player. Was Ruth Paine an intelligence agent? Was George De Mohrenschildt? What is Oswald doing playing political footsie with them? Ruth had a filing cabinet devoted to pro-Castro groups in her home. Her husband attended Walker rallies with Oswald. All of this is innocent of intelligence agency involvement? Also, why wasn't Oswald arrested or "detained" on the spot inside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow when he, an aviation electronics operator recently placed in the marine reserves, threatened to commit espionage / sabotage against the U.S. for the Russians, and to tell them about something of "special interest"? --Tommy

It looks like Prayer Man's white t-shirt is barely visible under his dark-colored shirt. --Tommy

We're talking about two different grey-suit-wearing men. Please watch it again, Bill, starting at 3:50. At 3:55 Neck Scratcher (Morales?) walks up and stands right behind the guy with the bald spot you're talking about. The guy you're talking about is also wearing a grey suit. The guy you're talking about is wearing glasses and has a bald spot and you can see a few seconds later, after the camera position has changed, that the guy you're talking about is holding a bunch of stuff in his hands.. Both of the men in grey suits can be seen simultaneously at 3:55-3:56 and you can see the bald spot on the guy standing in front of Neck Scratcher (Morales?). I think the guy who is scratching his neck and standing behind the guy with the bald spot is David Sanchez Morales. --Tommy bumped one last time for Bill Simpich Everyone, Please see my new post on Morales at the "Who Killed Bobby?" thread. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13105#entry299808 --Tommy

Vanessa, Here it is. You were right. Thanks. From Weigman film. Notice how Lovelady, with left half of body in shade, is standing next to the center railing and leaning on it, indicating to me that this frame must have been shot at very nearly the same instant that Altgens shot "Altgens 6". Another Weigman frame showing Lovelady and Prayer Man, not cropped, from post #82: --Tommy

Hi Vanessa, Would you please point out Lovelady to me in Weigman? Thank you, --Tommy

Dear Don, Unless, of course, Altgen's "Doorman" and Weigman's "Prayer Man" are the same person (Lovelady). Respectfully, --Tommy

Everyone, Please watch this video by Shane O'Sullivan about David Sanchez Morales' possible involvement in the assassination of RFK and the goings on in the Ambassador ballroom a few minutes after the assassination. Of particular interest to me is the short clip starting at 6:35 which shows the "David Sanchez Morales" character in the Ambassador's ballroom, turning his head around to watch the entrance of two men who are about ten feet apart from each other as they walk from right to left. It looks like as soon as he spies the second man ("horseshoe" mustache; wearing glasses and a light colored sweater), "Morales" snaps his head back around to the front. Could that glasses-and-sweater-wearing guy with the "horseshoe" mustache be professional assassin Michael Townley? Townley was 25.5 years old at the time of RFK's assassination. Townley (center), in a photo published in a 1980 newspaper article. Townley Townley --Tommy

Dear Don, Have you considered the following two possibilities: 1 ) although Altgens 6 captured Billy Lovelady as "Doorman," it did not capture "Prayer Man" because "Prayer Man" was standing behind, above, and to the left of "Doorman" and therefore was out of Altgen's camera's "view," or 2 ) Altgen 6's "Doorman" (Lovelady) was Weigman's "Prayerman" (Lovelady) ? Respectfully, --Tommy

Paul B., The FPCC was being smeared by whom? The FBI and the CIA, or Oswald? --Tommy

Ray, Just looking at the photographs, it's hard to believe that there is only a 4'2" difference between street (sidewalk?) level and top of the step. Respectfully, --Tommy

Dear Jon, Yes, Oswald is almost as hard to "put your finger on," "to get a handle on," as some Intelligence Agents and Intelligence Operatives are known to be. Imagine that. --Tommy

Dear Chris, What was the point you were trying to make in post # 72 ? (see below) Tom [Hume], http://www.angelfire...rexes/1959j.htm Mr. ROWLAND - That is a whopper. I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what 1 said, and I said, "He is not there now." I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her. The photo does not appear to depict an African-American. chris Respectfully, --Tommy

Tom, http://www.angelfire.com/tx/rangerexes/1959j.htm Mr. ROWLAND - That is a whopper. I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what 1 said, and I said, "He is not there now." I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her. The photo does not appear to depict an African-American. chris Chris, Rowland doesn't say that the guy in the window with a rifle was an African American. He says that the guy who had an epileptic fit was an African American. Respectfully, --Tommy BTW, I think that Rowland is a very credible witness.

Dear Greg and Mark, FWIW, Brute Krulak was never Commandant of the Marine Corps, but his son was. Neither was he a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, although he did serve them as a special assistant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_H._Krulak Respectfully, --Tommy

James, I think you meant to congratulate Robert P., not me. I'm the fly in the ointment here. I'm the spanner in the works. I'm arguing that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled down. I believe that in the bottom photograph, the sleeve covering his right forearm is in the sun or perhaps a penumbra-like shadow (partial shade), making it appear to be lighter-colored in comparison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. I believe his right sleeve is not rolled up, but it is a few inches short of his wrist. So, James, I disagree with your assessment that the person is "clearly" wearing a short sleeve shirt. If the person was wearing a short sleeved shirt, he had very hairy arms. And the hair stopped a few inches from his wrist. I think Prayer Man might be Billy Lovelady wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt with the sleeves rolled down. Note the sunlight, direct or indirect, on his right elbow and on his right side below his arm: Respectfully, --Tommy Before we started talking about how tall Prayer Man was and which step he was standing on, we were talking about whether or not he was wearing a long sleeved shirt. . edited and bumped