Thomas Graves

Paul, That was my own little "theory" that I came up with today after having read in Bagley's "Spy Wars" that, in Bagley's opinion, de Vosjoli is an excellent example of someone who brings correct and dire warnings to his own intelligence agency, and for whatever reason (mostly institutionalized cognitive dissonance, oh-no-it-can't-happen-here mentality, and a healthy dose of embarrassment avoidance syndrome), is shunned, ignored, and blamed for doing so. That and what you wrote on this thread -- that de Vosjoli defected to the U.S. and then in October,1963, hightailed it (with Angleton's help) to Brandy's place in Mexico. Since then I've read in Wise's "Mole Hunt" that De Gaulle did order a special unit of French Intelligence to find and kill de Vosjoli. So you tell me, Paul -- if French intelligence and government was heavily penetrated by KGB (which I believe it was), would it be more correct to say that De Gaulle wanted de Vosjoli dead, or that the Ruskies wanted de Vosjoli dead (before he could uncover any moles or KGB agents in France), or that the Ruskies manipulated the situation and influenced De Gaule into wanting de Vosjoli dead? -- T.G.

OMG, It's "whom," James? But to answer your question -- Kosti and the boys down in Old Mexico? Or that nice, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald" down there? Raul and Che down in Habana? John Hurt? Beats the heck outta me, James.

Paul, Are you aware that Phillipe de Vosjoli (not actually the head of SDECE) tried to alert his own government about the many penetrations by-the-Ruskies it had sustained (which he had learned about from true defector Anatoly Golitsyn), but was totally shunned and ignored, probably because of said penetrations, plus the fact that hey, no government wants to admit that it's been "worked"? And maybe he "fled" to Mexico because he was afraid the Ruskies would find him in the good 'ol U.S.A.? -- T.G.

I might even be that Oswald decided to do that on his own, to enhance his "mystique". -- T.G.

B. A. Copeland, All you need to do to be convinced, as John Newman and I already are, that pre mid-1964 Golitsyn was "golden" (except for possibly having mistaken the word "Sasha" in a secret document or two as the mole's code name rather than as the diminutive form of "Alexander," a different mole's former first name) is to read Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars. Since Golitsyn defected in December, 1961, that means he was (generally speaking) very good for us, indeed, for two and one-half years. Question: Will you be the first member here (other than me, of course, and as far as I know) to have the gonads and the sufficiently open and inquiring mind to actually read it? It's free, you know. https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames By the way, I hope you noticed that right after PDS tells Newman that he now believes Nosenko was a false defector, PDS says, "But ... but ... but ... but ... gasp ... that Golitsyn ... ," Newman says, in so many words, "Well, early Golitsyn was very good." -- T.G. PS Regarding what an easily duped, nuts-'n-bolts lamebrain Bruce Solie was, read Mark Riebling's 1994 book Wedge: The Rivalry Between the FBI and CIA.

Chris, Given the fact that you recently, on Greg Burnham's website, reiterated your belief that "Prayer Man" is a woman, one can only wonder whether or not you and Andrej are secretly collaborating on trying to prove that Sarah Stanton was wearing pants that day, and was ... gasp ... 5' 9" tall. -- T.G.

Andrej, If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be funny watching you go through all these contortions (literally, figuratively) as you try your darndest to prove that "Prayer Man" was a skinny five-foot nine-inch guy. Whose name just happened to be Lee Harvey Oswald. Wow, talk about coincidences! In all honesty, it seems to me that it would have been so much easier for you if only he had been ..... (gasp) ..... 5' 4" or so, and standing with both feet on the landing! Carry on, my friend ... -- T.G. PS If it's any consolation, "Prayer Man" doesn't have to be Oswald. I mean, look at it this way, Andrej. Even if he wasn't "Prayer Man," it's still hypothetically possible that he was innocent!

Totally different from the one I heard him give at San Diego State College's "Aztec Bowl" stadium in June, 1963. -- T.G.

Vince, I've always thought you were really, really gullible. For example, do still think Nosenko was a true defector, as James and Jefferson Morley apparently do? (LOL) -- Charles

I've since edited it, Michael, by putting your "kiscks" in. Can you "dig" it? -- T.G. By the way, thanks for helping to spark greater interest in "My New Thread" among the members and guests!

Michael, So, you have no opinion one way or the other on "Prayer Man," but just wanted to "join the fray," right? Especially since I'm in it, and you do always like to get a few digs and kiscks in? Oh yeah, and to give poor Andrej some "moral support," although you don't particularly buy his "interpretation"? -- T.G.

Much better than your .... d-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-s ... , Michael. Hint: think ... "rodents" EDIT ALERT: I MEAN "VERMIN" You know, those little, furry, long-tailed, and often filthy mammals that you accused Bernie Laverick and Michel Walton, and Tracy Parnell and I of being in this post of yours from back in December of last year? Members 3,289 posts Gender:Male Report post Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) It's just really disappointing that we can't have a decent discussion about a decent article without the same three hooligans throwing sucker punches, and kiscks to the head, like rabid dogs, thugs or vermin. This article stood clear of the the larger Harvey and Lee work, but a hurt-child and dedicated ramshackle couldn't leave it be. lay dome some straight-up criticism, find fault with references citations or arguments, that's fine. Waltons hurt and despondency over his works bending ignored has created a disturbed child who needs to be removed from tha class of normal students. Walton has whined about no one paying attention to his garbage before, and we all have to pay for his delinquent, childish acting out. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/7252-michael-walton/?do=content&type=forums_topic&change_section=1 Edited December 4, 2017 by Michael Clark -- T.G. Tell me, are you an aficionado of Andrej's very athletic but mal-formed Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, arch-backed (to ... uhh ...see better, or just to appear to be 5' 9"???), and kinda on the steps and kinda on the landing? PS lay dome?

Know what's really creepy, Michael? Aww ... never mind. Don't wanna get "moderated," again. -- T.G. P.S. Counted my number of "edits" recently? PPS "Obtuse," huh. Did you think of that big word all by your widdle self, or did someone help you with it?

Yes, Andrej, hopefully you'll soon be able to give us absolute 3-D modelling proof that 5' 9.5" Lee Harvey Oswald was fully capable of being an abnormally formed (one leg 3" or so longer than the other; sway-backed), purse-carrying, highly athletic (70-degree pivot on one leg!), wide-in-the- hips, female-faced, 5' 9" "Prayer Man" so that we'll finally know in our heart of heats that he was ... gasp ... INNOCENT ALL ALONG. -- T.G.

I sympathize with you, Andrej. After all. pounding a square peg into a round hole is very hard work, indeed. -- T.G.

Andrej, Are you aware that Chris Davidson recently publicly stated (on Greg Burnham's website, iirc) that he thinks "Prayer Man" is a woman? -- T.G. Edit: Yep, here it is. Post # 12 on the "Gloria Calvery's True Location" thread on Greg Burnham's website. (I noticed that in post #13, Burnham himself wrote, "I tend to agree." Debate to your hearts content. I could care less who it is. Man, Woman, Lion, Tiger, Bear ? My original thought was the Wiegman enhanced frame shows a woman. I have not changed my mind. This one just reconfirms it for me. https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

David, Interesting quasi Simpich-related Webster / One-And-Only-Lee-Harvey-Oswald / Rand "findings", but as for some of your earlier posts, do you really think Master James DiEugenio created this special thread for me so that you could take it over with your spaghetti-on-the-wall "'Henry' and 'Lee' and 'Harvey' and the Two ... (Gasp!) ... 'Marguerites'" cut and paste, wall-to-wall-with-cheap-wallpaper ... garbage? -- T.G.

Andrej, To je skoda. (Czech for "It's a pity.") Regardless, have you seen Chris Davidson's enhancement work on "Prayer Man's" face as it appears in Wiegman? -- T.G.

Andrej, In the interest of good-natured "research" and "collaboration," can't you just tell me? Don't remember? -- T.G.

Andrej, I'd already corrected my horrendous mistake before you posted this, and even went back once again to ask you a question at the very bottom of my edited again-and-again post. Have you seen it yet? Hint: It's in bold red text. -- T.G.

Joe, Have you tried typing the word s-t-a-n-t-o-n into the little search box thingy in the upper right-hand corner of the main page??? In a nutshell, Debra Conway, ex-EF member Brian Doyle, and I (and a few others who are brave enough to speak out) believe that "Prayer Man" is TSBD employee Sarah Stanton, whereas Bart Kamp, the (self?) exiled Greg Parker, Andrej, and oodles and gobs of others who really, really, really want photographic proof that Oswald was innocent, believe that Sean Murphy's "Prayer Man" is a 5' 9" man. (Oswald was 5' 9.5"). In his very creative representation of a Darnell frame, below, Andrej has placed a shortish woman behind "Bill Shelley" (the man wearing the suit), and has labeled her "Sarah Stanton". (You can see a teensy-weensy bit of her head sticking up over "Shelly's" right shoulder.) Andrej's only "reasons" for doing this are: 1) Another TSBD employee, Sandra Styles Pauline Sanders (the woman wearing the purple dress in the graphic) told the FBI that her colleague Stanton was standing roughly where Andrej has "Stanton" standing behind Shelly, but the problem is that Style was only talking about their relative positions (i.e., Stanton's and Styles' positions) several minutes before the motorcade passed by, and she makes no mention of where either of them were standing during the shooting or immediately thereafter. So, obviously, Stanton had plenty of time to kinda wander away from her colleague and assume the position of the infamous figure you and I know as "Prayer Man" before even Wiegman had started filming (some 30 seconds before Couch and Darnell started filming). And oh, yeah: 2) Andrej thinks he's detected a blob of protoplasm "stuck" to Lovelady's left cheek in Altgen's 6 and that said blob is a piece of Stanton that was tall enough to somehow crane itself forward behind Lovelady's head and the back side of Shelley's head, maybe to get a better view? Joe, are you aware that in a 2013 videotaped interview, Buell Wesley Frazier said that when "a crying girl" (undoubtedly Gloria Calvery, visible near the bottom step with the back side of her black blouse and black headscarf to the camera in the Darnell clip) "came by the steps" and announced that "JFK had been shot," he (Frazier) turned "to" or "towards" (not "around to") a "Sarah," and asked her if she'd heard the crying girl the way he'd heard her? Note: The direction that "Prayer Man" is facing changes about 70 degrees between Wiegman and Darnell. I don't think Andrej has accurately portrayed the magnitude of that miraculous one-legged "pivot" in the above graphic. Also, Andrej has both of "Prayer Man's hands in the sunlight, whereas in reality, only "his" right hand was in the sunlight in Darnell. -- T.G. EDIT: Andrej, how tall, exactly, is your "Sarah Stanton" in the above graphic? Thanks.

Andrej, If the only way you could get your 5' 9" Oswald to look "right" in your very creative graphics (e.g., height-wise in relation to Frazier; with sunlight only on "his" right hand, etc, etc) was to have "him" doing "The Limbo" while straddling two steps, and with one leg six inches longer than the other, ..... would you do it? You know, just to absolutely prove that Oswald was innocent? -- T.G.

John, It seems to me that you're looking at a copy of a Darnell frame in which someone has (probably unintentionally) reduced/changed the shadows by fiddling with the "contrast" adjustment, you know, in an attempt to "bring out" Sarah Stanton, I mean "Prayer Man" up there on the landing, or some such thing.. -- T.G.