Thomas Graves

Sandy, With all due respect, it sounds as though you should start reading (CIA Soviet Block Counterintelligence officer; Pro-Angleton) Tennent H. Bagley's 35-page PDF "Ghosts of the Spy Wars" (2015), *AND* Bill "The CIA Killed JFK" Simpich's "State Secret" to get an inkling of what I'm talking about ... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362 https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Preface.html -- Tommy

Pure speculation in a wilderness of mirrors, Sandy. All hypothetical at this point, but a paradigm that might help to explain some apparent anomalies ... Now let me ask YOU a question: *IF* there was a mole or a network of embedded KGB-types, would they have been willing to kill JFK (or any other U.S. president for that matter) if they had been instructed by their KGB / GRU handler(s) to do so, to enable ever-increasing KGB / GRU influence on our country through "active measures counterintelligence operations" (which started in 1921) and "strategic deception operations" (which started in 1959), thereby giving rise to paralyzing, cancer-like propaganda and disinformation (e.g., "The evil, evil CIA killed JFK," and "The evil, evil CIA killed JFK via the 'Harvey & Lee and Two Marguerites Program,'" and "The evil, evil CIA and the Mafia ... ")? So that, you know, ..... EVENTUALLY a Russian Mafia-compromised (and therefore eminently blackmail-able) anti-NATO "useful idiot" like Donald James Trump could be installed as our president? (Or do you believe that some disgruntled DNC or NSA insider not only hacked the DNC's and Podesta's e-mails, but gave said e-mails to Julian Assange and DNCLeaks? And that Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear and Guccifer 2.0 are just an evil, evil CIA "cover story" or "fantasy"?) LOL -- Tommy PS: I would suggest that pieces of the puzzle lie in Bill Simpich's "State Secret," John Newman's "Oswald and the CIA," and Tennent H. Bagley's "Spy Wars" and "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," and Mark Riebling's "Wedge".

I can really shake 'em down, Sandy. -- TOMMY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Contours

Huh? So is ... . or So, is ... ? Hmm Or, who told somebody to say that somebody said that somebody said that?

James, Care to say anything else about it? -- Tommy

Thanks, Robin! I hope to find the intercepts Petty apparently told Russell about, and then try to "analyze" them from a Tennent H. Bagley / Sergei Kondrashev point-of-view and knowledge base (and maybe even a little Mitrokhin Archives, too) as regards the people said KGB agent was colluding with and / or working against through the years. -- Tommy

Did James Jesus Angleton knowingly risk JFK's life in an attempt to catch a high-level mole? Could he have believed that catching such a mole was more important than protecting the current POTUS, or any POTUS for that matter? You know, based on the fact that presidents are, after all, replaceable, whereas an undetected high-level mole (pardon the redundancy) is an "incubus" worse than ... Alien? Could it have been a case of "I Fought The Mole And The ... Mole Won"? -- Tommy

Mr. Pope, With all due respect ....... LOL -- Tommy

According Richard Russell, CI/SIG officer Clare Edward Petty told him there were some Venona intercepts that indicated to Petty that GdM might have been a Ruskie spy. "Clare Petty, a former official on Angleton's staff, told me that shortly before his CIA retirement in 1974, he was examining a potential de Mohrenschildt link to some Soviet cipher traffic first intercepted by American intelligence in World War II. Known as the VENONA material, 'it Was only partially broken,' according to Petty, including lots of agent cryptonyms that we never found out to whom they applied. I had started to consider the possibility of whether a certain Soviet illegal might have been de Mohrenschildt. It was clear that whoever was being described in the codes had been in the United States, went to Mexico during he war, and was a real wheeler-dealer. He also had another nationality; my recollection is that it was Polish.'" --The Man Who Knew Too Much, Dick Russell pp. 273 Let's see, the KGB agent ... 1 ) Was from Poland, or some other northern Slavic country 2 ) Was in the U.S. before WW II 3 ) Went to Mexico during WW II 4 ) Was a real wheeler-dealer Hmm ... 1 ) George "von" Mohrenschildt was born in Mazyr, Belarus, about 300 miles east of the Polish border 2 ) He immigrated to the U.S. in May, 1938. 3 ) He and his girlfriend, Lilia Larin, lived in Mexico for several months in 1942, and then returned to the U.S. 4 ) He was a wheeler-dealer. (Insurance Salesman, His Own Art Work, Sugar Speculator, Oil Speculator, Film Producer ...) -- Tommy P.S. Does anyone know how to access the decoded intercepts, themselves? Have they been released?

Hey Steve, Not a problem. Heck, even I made a mistake once, LOL -- Tommy AKA "I used to be conceited, but now I'm perfect."

Fwiw, I interviewed 93 year-old retired ONI special agent Robert D. Steel (R.I.P.) at his house in my hometown of La Jolla, California, in 2013, and I have posted about it on other threads on this forum. -- Tommy

Sandy, In that scenario, do you think Ruth was originally assigned to Oswald on some rather innocent project which "went bad" on her on 11/22/63? -- Tommy

Michael Walton, I'm leaning more and more towards believing that Oswald didn't go to Mexico City, and that certain elements of the KGB, the CIA, and the Cuban Consulate / Embassy conspired with each other, or maybe piggybacked each other's operations in some complex Mad Magazine-like "spy vs spy" game, to make it appear that he had. You are probably now thinking: "Can you explain why you feel this way, Tommy?" No, not in any great detail. I haven't worked it all out yet. (lol) Suffice it to say that the fact Duran's and Azcue's descriptions of the "Blond Oswald" who had (or had not) visited them on Friday, September 27, 1963, were not only implausible to begin with (describing Nikolai Leonov!), but varied so much over the years (at one point during her HSCA testimony Duran said the "Blond Oswald" weighed about the same as a guy in the HSCA proceedings who weighed 200 lbs ! And when a HSCA lawyer who was questioning her said (in so many words), "Now earlier, out of the court room, you told us this guy was wearing a sports jacket", and she basically contradicted him and said, "No, he wasn't so elegantly dressed" or words to that effect. When we remember that Cuban Consul Azcue had claimed that "Blond Oswald" was wearing a dark blue "Prince of Wales" jacket with stripes, I think what the HSCA lawyer let slip out of the bag is kinda telling about the veracity (or lack of such) of both Duran and Azcue, and opens the possibility that no Oswald, blond or otherwise, visited the Cuban Consulate in late September, 1963. Kinda thinking out loud here, now, ... I think the almost-identical after-the-assassination descriptions Nechiporenko and Leonov gave of their "Oswald encounters" (on Saturday and Sunday, September 28th and 29th, respectively) in which Oswald was made out as being "highly unstable, brandishing a loaded revolver" were fabricated in order to suggest that Oswald was emotionally predisposed to killing people (i.e. Tippit and JFK), and also as an attempt to corroborate what Nosenko had told CIA in February, 1964 -- that Oswald was so doggone unstable when he arrived in the U.S.S.R. that the KGB didn't want to have anything to do with him. Which is very interesting. Because Golitsyn, who defected 6 months before Nosenko (and whom I believe was genuine -- I'm talking about Golitsyn here) had already told CIA that KGB's Department 13 interviewed all defecting U.S. military personnel to learn of any military secrets they might have. Now this doesn't necessarily mean that I believe the KGB recruited Oswald to kill JFK. But it does raise the interesting question of why in the heck the KGB wanted us to believe they hadn't even routinely interviewed Oswald for military secrets. I can think of a few possibilities: 1 ) They didn't interview him. Not because they suspected he was crazy, but because they suspected that he was actually a CIA or ONI "plant" sent to the U.S.S.R. to give the KGB / GRU false information about the U.S. military. (But why not interview him anyway, not "let on" what you suspect his true motives are, and give him some false info in return?) 2 ) They did interview Oswald but didn't want the CIA to know that. Because: A ) They got some really juicy info from him, like a description of the new height-finding radar we were using in conjunction with the U2, etc, and KGB didn't want CIA to know that KGB knew that. B ) They didn't get squat from him (because he was "crazy" and just couldn't remember, etc), and after the assassination the KGB was afraid the U.S. would nuke the U.S.S.R. if it became known that the KGB (and specifically Department 13 !) had not only contacted Oswald when he arrived in Moscow, but had actually interviewed him. (I don't know exactly when Golitsyn told CIA about Department 13's normal operating procedures as regards recently-arrived U.S. military defectors, but it's reasonable to assume that he might have kinda brought it up at some point before November 22, 1963, so I guess this isn't a particularly plausible excuse on KGB's part for the simple fact that the U.S. hadn't quite gotten around to nuking the U.S.S.R. when Nosenko defected on February 4, 1964. (Hmmm ... Was the KGB worried about what the Warren Commission might uncover?) C ) Out of KGB's concern that if they admitted in, say, February of 1964, that the KGB had interviewed Oswald, that they would be revealing top secret "sources and methods", and it might even come out that their foreign assassinations section -- Department 13 -- was the department doing the interviewing. But I'm rambling, I suppose, and I am getting tired. Time for another cup of that cheapo instant coffee .... -- Tommy Oh yeah, all of the above plus the fact that neither the Ruskies nor the Mexicans were ever able to produce the communications Nechiporenko and Leonov claimed they'd sent to the authorities on 9/28/63 and 9/29/63, respectively, about this "unstable, dangerous Oswald guy" they'd met with.

Yes, Pamela, you already have. Intriguing theory btw. Have you read Spy Wars or Ghosts of Spy Wars yet? In them, Bagley (one of Nosenko's interrorgators) points out that Nosenko's answers changed so much over the years as to suggest that it wasn't just a matter of his KGB superiors' giving him bad information for him to unwittingly pass on to CIA, but that he was lying a lot and having a hard time keeping his lies straight. -- Tommy Or put another way, CIA was asking him detailed, unexpected questions on things he'd already knowingly lied about in a general kind of way, and he had a hard time keeping those "secondary" answers straight during subsequent interrogations.

John, I think that's a good idea. The problem is -- there are so many factions on both sides. Who would represent a faction like "A Witting LHO and Some Other People Did It Together", for example? And how would you accommodate such "fringe" theories (imho) as "Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites, Too" and "General Edwin Walker, Guy Banister, and David Sanchez Morales Did It"? Or the really intriguing but unpopular "Mid-Level CIA and Upper-Level KGB Did It Together"? For example. -- Tommy

Update: I haven't exactly counted up the votes since I know it's something like Yes, Nosenko was a genuine defector -- 50.5 votes No, Nosenko was a false defector -- 2.5 votes Anyone else have an opinion on this? By the way -- Has anyone here actually read Tennent H. Bagley's book Spy Wars? (2007) Okay then, how about his 37-page sequel, Ghosts of Spy Wars? (2015) http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362 -- Tommy PS I intended this as a poll thread, not as a discussion thread seein' as how there already are threads on Nosenko, Golitsyn, Angleton, etc. So please, put your comments, if any, on one of those threads so as not to interrupt the "flow" of this here poll thread. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Bumped

Michael, In that post I was kinda multi-tasking if you will. I'll start explaining / defending myself in a few minutes after I've had another cup of coffee and listened to AC/DC's "Rock N Roll Train" a couple more times to get the "juices" flowing..... I mean I mean I mean seriously dude I just got up. Well, about an hour ago, truth be told. Pulled an all nighter. Well, until about 4 AM, truth be told.. But thanks for asking. "Now where did I put that jar of cheapo house brand instant caffeinated coffee, gosh darn it?........" I do promise to get back to you after I've thought up a few plausible .... "rationalizations". More than enough time for my good buddy to jump in and say something highly enlightening if he wants to. -- Tommy

" an old school rebel ..."

I like T. S, Elliott. -- Tommy

I wonder if this John T. Martin in Saint Paul, Minnesota, somehow ties in with the phone call David Ferrie made to someone in Minneapolis immediately prior to calling that bank in my hometown of La Jolla, California, in April, 1962? -- Tommy

Paul, I don't know if I've ever read any of Grozev's articles. If the stuff he writes "rings true" to me, based on what I already know about the wars in Donbas, etc, I'll "go with it" because I know from experience that bellingcat is a "straight shooter" news source. If you spend a little more time reading the articles there about the wars in Syria and Ukraine, etc, I think you'll notice the lack of emotional language and the straightforward, detailed, and often social-media-based (and therefore photographically verifiable) subject matter. For example, the "selfies" and regular photos that Russian solders seem to love to take of interesting-looking things and of their soldier buddies while they're in Syria or Ukraine, and which they foolishly post on some social media website. I say "foolishly post" because often times there are self-incriminating geo-specific "land marks" in the background of those photos which can be found on Google Earth by the bellingcat analysts and thereby used to figure out exactly where those Russian soldiers (and their tanks, etc) were and what the heck they were "up to" when the photo was taken. Etc. -- Tommy

Paul, Thanks for sharing, Paul. I absolutely agree with you -- Degree of factual reporting is much more important than the emotional language or "slant" that might be used in an article or book or, in this case, "news source" (since that's what you and I are talking about right now). When I'm doing basic research (like just getting started on something), I like to find the subject matter on Wikipedia, if possible, and then I "take it from there" by reading the article on Wikipedia and clicking on any interesting-looking "links" therein. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wikipedia/ Of course, if I'm reading an article on what I consider to be a reputable JFK assassination-oriented website (like on the MFF or in Simpich's State Secret), I just click on any interesting-looking links there, too. I spend one heck of a lot of time on Facebook, posting and "sharing" oodles and gobs of anti-Trump, anti-Putin, anti-Assad, and pro-Ukrainian stuff, and when someone else posts or "shares" something having to do with those subjectmatters, I'll typically run that person's news source through https://mediabiasfactcheck.com to see whether or not said "news source" has my required "High" level of factual reporting. As I said in an earlier post, I like the NYT and the WP. I also like AP (Associated Press), PBS, Reuters, and believe it or not USA Today. There are others that I like that I can't think of right now. I'll even go "Left-Biased" sometimes as long as it has "High" factual reporting. If memory serves, MOTHER JONES is one of those. Surprised? Regardless, none of news sources I "share" on facebook are "Right" or "Right-Center" biased according to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com The only exception might be the occasional military-oriented one in the "Right-Center" category, but it's still gotta have "High" factual reporting for me to be interested in it. Sound reasonable? I hope this answers your question. -- Tommy PS Your DEMOCRACY NOW looks like a good one because it has "High" factual reporting. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/democracy-now/

"Fifty-thousand dollars on 'evens'? Yes, sir, ..... There you go, sir. Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen!" -- Tommy PS That all you got, Chris? PPS Personally, I like number one.