Gene Kelly

Charles: I agree... scientific theories can be postulated as either deductive (from a series of facts) or inductive. In the latter, you submit the theory and then go gather the facts to support. An excellent example is Einstein's general relativity theory wherein he made the bold claim (in part) that light would bend near massive objects. It took Sir Arthur Eddington to demonstrate by experiment during an eclipse that this prediction was accurate. Physicists have been challenging that theory for almost 100 years now, and it still stands tall. My point being, general relativity is an audacious (and counter-intuitive) concept - almost incomprehensible - but it's nonetheless valid. So goes our assassination quest... and I think your theory is plausible. Just like other posts have stated the presence of backup plans, alternate kill sites and contingencies. Thorough planning for such an act would demand no less. I've read in more than one source that Colonel "Bishop" was at Parkland, along with our old friend Jack Ruby. And didn't someone offer a picture of an individual resembling the sinister Colonel Boris Pash? Scientific theory (including quantum mechanics) would not support these occurrences as random or coincidental... their presence at Parkland is not a coincidence. Gene

Charles: Was that the deadly "colonel Bishop"?

Tim: This is an absolutely true story. I had an interview in NYC in the mid-70's and found myself in an elevator (in the financial district, in a high rise) alone with Doris Day. As a dumbstruck young guy, I resorted to the stupid line of "you're Doris Day"... very affably, she said yes, and then asked me what my name was. I thought for a second, then my floor was reached and the doors opened...so as not to seem a wise guy, I replied "...you wouldn't believe me if I told you" and left the car. Gene

Pat: How did the Paines ever escape being investigated, researched and deposed? They're truly accessories to a murder, and suspicious as any characters in this labyrinth plot. - gene

John: I agree whole-heartedly ... Harlot's Ghost was a great read. I thought that Mailer was really onto something. He seemed to have an "inside " scoop or perspective on the CIA and the times surrounding 1963, especially the MKULTRA/LSD thing. It was written in the first-person. As you may know, his style/thinking was that history was somewhat inaccurate, and so his version (thoroughly researched and detailed of course) was just as legitimate as the sanitized/published version. I heard him speak at the Univ of Pennsylvania on this theme; quite fascinating. I especially think he was "on" to Harvey and Angleton... but he ended it with an unfinished tenor ("...to be continued") but apparently never finished. I had heard he was courted by CIA and went to Langley for a visit. I wonder why he didn't followup with a sequel. regards, Gene

Kathleen: I don't get that response as much as I used to... and if I had a dollar for every time, well you know the rest. Funny story, my wife and I are taking dance lessons recently, and when all the couples introduced themselves, our instructor (after hearing my name) said she had waited for this moment all of her life. Gene PS. ... Mrs. Kelly's name is not 'Ginger'

I'm caught in a logical conundrum... how can you put stock in the information provided by an expert in disinformation?

Shanet: Can you elaborate on the concept of "sweeps"? If the photographed individuals are conducting a known post-op surveillance, that's very telling. Not only the ways and means, but the actual faces identified, would give much more substance to the plot. I don't know much about what "sweepers" are or do, but have read fictionalized accounts. Obviously they're a very real technique. - gene

Purists and hardliners will probably never be able to accept the fact that as early as 1958, people like Richard Condon who wrote "The Manchurian Candidate" and "Winter Kills" and "Prizzi's Honor" were quite familiar with the Right Wing Hate Networks allied against JFK. Not only were they aware of the public statements made by these people, but many of them had back channel connections into groups like the American Security Council, the White Citizens Councils, The John Birch Society, etc. At this point many so called "Allied" generals had already been exposed as being, in fact, much closer to Hitler than to FDR. Do Google searches on Albert C. Wedemeyer (who failed a Barium Leak test and was essentially demoted), George C. Stratemeyer, Charles A. Willoughby (whom MacArthur called "My Little Fascist"), Bonner Fellers (whom Hitler called "our best ally" for reveaing Monty's troop movements thru Angleton), or for that matter Angleton's father Hugh Angleton who was part of OSS during WW-II but according to Tom Mangold "...was very friendly with Mussolini and his associates." Hugh Angleton, Charles Willoughby and George Draper were cavalry officers riding with Gen. John Pershing when they went after Pancho Villa together as professional "head hunters". The fact remains, accept it or not, that Condon identified Angleton in The Manchurian Candidate in the personna of "Ole Banstoffsen - Washington" which is an anagram for "H. Angleton B Waffen SS Notsi" or Hugh Angleton was a Waffen SS Nazi". The acorn does not fall far from the tree. Jim Angleton was also a Nazi sympathizer plain and simple. He ran the Vatican Ratlines with Col. Philip J. Corso and selectively picked the Nazi War Criminals he wanted released into his custody by convincing Giovanni Battista Montini that they should first be given credentials then released to him or to Corso for "incarceration". Corso himself described how he and Angleton were able to pull off this little scam in his hometown newspaper after his retirement. The Angleton's were either double agents or just Nazi Waffen SS Agents. Take your pick. The Honetel program was meant to ruin careers and stifle the success of the CIA and it worked... almost perfectly. Any other interpretation borders on almost childlike simplicity. And Seymour Hersch was "given" the evidence to justify the firing of Angleton. Hersch could not find a BMW in a haystack. He was taken in twice by scams, once even falling for the "1st wife of JFK" scam which first surfaced in the 1960's courtesy of Rev. Gerald L K Smith. Hersch was a barely capable journalist and a headline chaser who jumped onto story lines to pump his career. John: Would you therefore conclude that Angleton was a right-wing Nazi double-agent, and thus part of a bigger scheme to murder JFK? or, as James Richards implies, he was not complicit but knowledgable afterwards? My intrigue with Angleton started when I read Norman Mailors book "Harlots Ghost" in which JJA is a central character... that book had a ring of authenticity to it. And JJA was apparently in the middle of MKULTRA and mind control (which is suspect with Ferrie, Oswald, Ruby et al). Is it too far fetched to speculate those patsies were prepared as manchurian candidates, and the plot as well as coverup masterfully manipulated by "Mother" (JJA) to further confound, convolute and hamstring the CIA? Any way you put it, JJA had to have known what really went down (and why). Plus his exploits with Nosenko and especially in the aftermath of the Mary Meyer murder seem far too involved to ignore or ascribe to coincidence. - gene

Tim: Somewhere I read that Conein was especially known for these kinds of operations (but I don't recall where or by whom... maybe it was in the works of Prouty). Fingerprints was a play on words, since I believe he was missing several fingers as well. He was intrically and actively engaged in the CIA's Viet Nam activities, plus a close colleague of Ed Lansdale. so he certaintly seems to be in the "right" Company (pun intended). Didn't James Richards identify a figure in the Plaza (familiar faces) that closely resembled Conein? In any case, that's the basis of my question. - gene

Isn't one of 3-finger Lou's renowned trademarks the subterfuge associated with highly contrived "plays" (assasinations, misdirections, operations) with actors and distractions? The complex multi-layered event that was played out in Dallas appears to be his specialty. His fingerprints are all over the plot. Hi Jim, Here is the McCord comparison I did. That photo you posted of the crowd gathering on the knoll is a very interesting one. Amongst many different aspects, you will find present Alfredo Duran, Billie Sol Estes and a known associate of Bernardo De Torres look-a-likes. If you look over toward the right of frame behind the little wall, there is a guy (2 guys actually), one who in some circles is considered to be Lee Oswald leaving the TSBD. I believe this was the Oswald impersonator. James

James /John: I am forever haunted by the smiling face of Angleton in a video clip seen many times on the History channel series (TMWKK) and its clearly him with Dulles in Dealey Plaza during a reconstruction visit. Its a quick fly-by cameo shot, but it's most assuredly him. And he's smiling/laughing, at the right hand of Dulles. Perhaps it was a visit by the Warren Commission staffers in the months that followed. But seeing his face, and his smile, and those intelligent devious deep eyes just gives me the creeps. Without any evidence or basis of fact, my instincts scream at me that he's complicit and culpable in the deed. What's your thoughts on this? -- Gene In addition to William Godell, there was a little known Agency man named Thaxter Goodell. He was associated with Victor Marchetti somehow and I think he may have handled Luis Aparicio, AKA Daniel Flores. Goodell also wrote a thing called "Cratology Pays Off" which was a detailed analysis of containers carrying weapons. This came in handy during the missile crisis. FWIW. James

Meet you at the Crab Trap

James: This is right out of James Bond (or Austin Powers) - gene

As in University of PA Wharton school? Greg, and James, Many thanks for this info. I spent a decade trying to find this guy, and he drops the initial of his first name E. Wharton Shober - and while his wife mentions Philly he forgets to mention it in his bio. And Greg, I don't think he amassed a fortune, I think he already had inherited it. His grandfather Shober was Governor of Pennsylvania and Wharton comes from the largest English grant landowner in South New Jersey - the Wharton Track of N.J. Pine Barrons is still an undeveloped wilderness in the most densley populated state in the union. At least I now know where he lives and how to contact him with questions, which I will do. I wonder if he's still pals with the Somoza family? Thanks again, you guys are the best, BK

James/Larry: I thought Harvey was dying in Arizon during HSCA at that point? If he testified, and his testimony is captured and/or released, it must be top shelf material. I firmly believe that he is central to all of this intrigue: he had strong motive... and exquisite means. The information available about him is unusually scarce (and hence well-protected) with virtually no pictures or anechdotes captured. His raw input would be like precious stones, IMHO. - gene

Hello Gene, Thanks for your reasoned response. As someone versed in physics, have you ever looked at the ballistics, acoustics, etc. in which such science comes into play? BK Bill: The acoustics are not my expertise... while I understand the basic concepts, the available "evidence" seems thin and the sound analysis was debated during HSCA hearings (with two schools of thought prevailing but no compelling bottom line). I've no conclusions in this regard, other than the shooter's trick of "canyon shoot" was at play that day in the Plaza. So it was hard to follow the sources and number of shots, especially if silencers were utilized. Plus, it appears there was a simultaneous volley that made it very difficult to correlate head movement and shot direction. Regarding ballistics, again the evidence trail seems "spoiled" or distorted, and therefore difficult to reconstruct and form any meaningful conclusions. Dr. Alvarez and splatter is interesting, but again that's very specialized. My interests don't run in either of these two areas. Plus, I have no practical experience in rifle techniques and sniper skills. - Gene

Bill: Quick note...we are 'neighbors' of sorts and share some interests. I'm a big Stones fan. I live in the Philadelphia surburbs (Lansdale) and am planning a wedding for my daughter next spring in Somers Point. I read your posts with interest and respect. Regards- Gene Kelly

Gentlemen: I read BK's posts with much interest and respect. I'm not as well versed as you all are, but my study of all that transpired leads to a strong conclusion that disinformation was rampant and evident after Dealey Plaza. Messrs. Hunt and Phillips were well known for this particular skill ... the Mafia, angry Cuban exiles, LHO (as the perennial loner) and even Castro's resources at the time do not hold a candle to the people best equipped to provide this specialized deliverable. The clear and persistent trail of disinformation is oa compelling indicator for me, personally. And the folks who are expert in this specialty seem obvious. - gene kelly

I am not the visual/image expert that you folks represent, but I follow these discussions with interest. Didn't more than witness testify to seeing or experiencing smoke in the vicinity of the Knoll? - gene kelly

Thanks James

James: Who is the second patsy...the one who changed the Plan by betraing Oswald? - Gene

James: This post is about a month old, and many have weighed in with opinions on Morales... what's the concensus? Is it him? I'd think some people who knew him well - and would have strong instinctual notions about the photo - may've validated your question. Seems like his tall, dark features stand out... while some others look for the appearance of being "official" or operational. I'm assuming its still reasonable to assume it's him..and if so, where would he have been prior to this photo? It does seem amazing that a senior person would risk being on the scene (and being seen), but then the audacity of this "hit" - high noon, head shot, blown his brains out, sitting next to his wife, broad daylight - was calculated for maximum effect. I'm not an expert, or even remotely qualified to say... but i think it's him. Regards, gene

Myra: Yes (sorry for late response). Putting myself in his proud and capable government 'shoes', and after all of his down and dirty (i.e. did the real dangerous field stuff) work in intelligence, he runs up against Bobby... and he ultimately gets creamed, and loses his rank and privlidge. It seems his career was done after RFK had him banished to Rome. A clear demotion. Projecting into his ego and professional pride... I think he got more than just mad. He got even. Gene

Harvey was senior (and superior) to all of the prominent suspects. He was displaced by Spring 1963, but still very much engaged with Roselli and Exec Action. I think he had the ideal means, strongest motive and an excellent opportunity at that time. There's lots of legend about him, but verry little in the way of facts and pictures available. He certainly became invisible afterwards... and had the perfect 'cover' far away in Rome. All my instincts scream at me that he's the lynchpin (if that's the right term). I wish we could get more factual information and meaningful investigation centered upon him; but I'll bet those facts are very well protected.