Peter McGuire

This, from someone who has convicted a dead man for two murders without the benefit of a trial, which created an injustice that depended on all kinds of “evidence” in order to convict the man in the public eye and in the history books. No, I don’t just “believe,” as you put it. There is a mountain of evidence which points to a conspiracy in this case. It’s too bad that you don’t believe in anything except for what you are told. But like I said; I guess you just didn’t get the memo. Or you just don't get it. Oswald never thought of killing President Kennedy and he did not. The pictures are incriminating and the point was that no one would take incriminating pictures of themselves. Get it now? You say they look odd yet you can not get yourself to believe that they are not just odd, but rather fake and were used to frame Oswald. This is a common mindset in deniers but I have faith in you Denis; you can do it; that is gather a moment of independent thought and see these pictures are not only odd, but are in fact most likely fake and were used to frame the man. This isn't the only piece of non-evidence that points to the framing of Oswald, so this possibility didn't just arrive on the scene yesterday. Why would I not be surprised that you are not convinced that Oswald was not the 6th Floor shooter when you can not even see the photos are fake?

Here we go with the continuing practice of attempting to show how the patsy COULD have done it. Although these attempts always fall short of proving anything, they accomplish their purpose of casting doubt on who the real assassins were.

The skillset are a pair of eyes and the common sense to know that nobody would have these pictures taken of themselves. Considering that it has been proven here that Oswald was NOT the sixth floor shooter, why are you even bothering with this issue?

No, that's not the "bottom line". The real bottom line is that although Marina Oswald may have been scared and intimidated by the CIA/government agencies back in 63 that's certainly not the case today. And yet Marina still claims to have taken those photographs, even though she could now be accurately described as a CT. Why? Do the photos look fake? That is the question.

This is the bottom line on this issue. I am familiar with Mr. Whites work and bought the VCR tape some ten years ago. That being said, a fresh look at those pictures is enough to see that they are fake, and a quick independent thought tells me NO ONE would take those pictures of themselves. I guess some people just didn't get the memo.

I think Duke's scenerio has helped everyone understand what happened in the building in those crucial minutes after the assassination. If the following can be defended, no more needs to be said. I also believe that this issue seems to be the latest aspect of the assassination that the defenders have given their spin. "The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been." As usual, they take the "look at this scenerio ( cartoons, drawings and the like) you see, Oswald COULD have done it." Never mind, as has been the case from the beginning , WHO ELSE could have done it.

“President Griswold, members of the faculty and fellows, graduates and their families, ladies and gentlemen: Let me begin by expressing my appreciation for the very deep honor that you have conferred upon me. As General de Gaulle occasionally acknowledges America to be the daughter of Europe, so I am pleased to come to Yale, the daughter of Harvard. It might be said now that I have the best of both worlds, a Harvard education and a Yale degree. I am particularly glad to become a Yale man because as I think about my troubles, I find that a lot of them have come from other Yale men.” This makes me wonder what President Kennedy would think about anyone, much less a Yale graduate, who is indecisive about whether or not some obviously faked photos are real or not.

Very well put. I could add more aspects of the case along these same lines but there is no reason to do so. Remember; The law has long followed the rule that if a person lies to you on one point, you may thereafter reject all of his testimony. Have we been lied to on one point? I rest my case.

The backyard photos are an obvious attempt to make the man look guilty, which seems to part of a process of framing the man for murder. A lot of work has been done on this aspect of the matter. However, I don’t know how anyone can take even a quick glance at those pictures and not conclude that they are doctored photos. The heads do not match, but mostly common sense tells you nobody would produce pictures like those of themselves. I certainly do not care what Marina said at the time, and there is no chain of custody, like so many pieces of so called evidence in this case.

I guess I thought Duke’s explanation of what happened during that critical time was part of Education Forum lore, and that no acknowledgement of the author was even necessary. The important thing is that, as you have suggested, even if you did believe the ridiculous story that Oswald brought the weapon in under the auspices of it being “curtain rods”, it doesn’t matter because you can’t place him on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting.

I understand what you are saying, Bill. In other words, that aspect of the framing process - - links to the rifle, was fairly good. ( A mauser was found, however) In my opinion, documents were manufactured and there is no reason to believe the official scenerio. That being said, as you say, the matter is moot since Oswald was not in position to fire from the sixth floor. I do not believe any denial offered by the government regarding their involvment in this matter. The law has long followed the rule that if a person lies to you on one point, you may thereafter reject all of his testimony. *"The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been." *From Duke Lane and "Inside the Target Car"

Of all the peripheral characters whose lives were destroyed by what they saw and heard on Nov. 22, 1963, there is no sadder or more tragic case than that of Roger Craig, Dallas detective. "I ran to the front of the Texas School Book Depository where I asked for anyone involved in the investigation. There was a man standing on the steps of the Book Depository Building and he turned to me and said, "I'm with the Secret Service." This man was about 40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit. I was naive enough at the time to believe that the only people there were actually officers -- after all, this was the command post. I gave him the information. He showed little interest in the persons leaving. However, he seemed extremely interested in the description of the Rambler. This was the only part of my statement which he wrote down in his little pad he was holding. Point: Mrs. Ruth Paine, the woman Marina Oswald lived with in Irving, Texas, owned a Rambler station wagon, at that time, of this same color. I learned nothing of this "Secret Service Agent's" identity until December 22, 1967 while we were living in New Orleans. The television was on as I came home from work one night and there on the screen was a picture of this man. I did not know what it was all about until my wife told me that Jim Garrison had charged him with being a part of the assassination plot. I called Jim Garrison then and told him that this was the man I had seen in Dallas on November 22, 1963. Jim then sent one of his investigators to see me with a better picture which I identified. I then learned that this man's name was Edgar Eugene Bradley."

What evidence? Paines? The Warren Report? Good grief. I'd say that there is no reason to believe that Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of 22 November 1963.

Indeed. Oswald's moves in the aftermath have never made any sense. What kind of "assassin" would hang around the murder scene only to eventually leave which would then certainly cause suspicion. Then finally trap himself in a movie theatre like Oswald did. And this is really all that we really know about what he really did that afternoon which we can believe from the official accounts.

i'll give you some evidence,if the secret service had done their job that day,11/22/63 would be a footnote in history as the day of a foiled assassination attempt.....Palamara's work speaks for itself,i'm a huge fan.... you discount the uncovered Chicago and Miami plots against JFK, in the previous weeks prior to Dallas, as if they never happened and imply that Dallas was a routine trip in regards to security.... What happened to Rybka? All that I heard is that he in died ( in his thirties) in 1975. At Love Field was he being playful? Simply angry for being left behind to guard Air Force One? Or, was he upset because he was not allowed to do his job and knew it was endangering the president? I was looking for a "Greer Shootist" thread, but couldn't find one. I also found the following comment on a Greer shot JFK video which I think is right on the mark. "The (unintentioned) result of this frame is a stark reminder of the driver's looking back twice (and many-if not most) people claiming to have watched the limo slow to an almost stop, when the first order of business is to flee immediately at the first sign of trouble. Whether the driver shot JFK is secondary to the greater liklihood that he was probably involved in the setup. "

Great post, however, I would change it somewhat to confirm to my unwavering belief that Oswald was simply the fall guy. My version would be "the same, only a little different". I have also including Connelly’s statement which makes it impossible not to believe in some kind of frontal shot. Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest Sixth floor of book depository, not the grassy knoll, was origin of lethal shot Although there is ample evidence to prove shots from the front, we know Kennedy was also shot at and hit from behind, so lets just say that some of the shots from behind came from the 6th floor southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building. With that in mind, even if it could be shown with 100% certainty that shots did come from the southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger. The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been. Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after they had heard - either directly from a police radio, or through the word spreading through the crowd - that the Presidential parade was on Main Street. The earliest that could have been was 12:22, or possibly as late as 12:26. They then walked around the TSBD via Houston Street and rode the freight elevator to the fifth floor. Bonnie Ray joined them after they had arrived at the windows, and immediately after he had left the sixth floor. Both elevators were on the fifth floor, according to the testimony of Roy Truly, who had looked up the shaft and seen the bottoms of both elevators at the same level after entering the building behind Officer Baker, and before the two of them began their ascent by stair. The east-side passenger elevator could only be operated by someone inside the elevator car; the freight elevator, while able to be called from another floor, would not operate if the gate was open. Truly was unable to call either elevator to the first floor, thus indicating that the freight elevator gate was open. When Baker & Truly reached the fifth floor, the freight elevator was gone. Jack Dougherty himself testified to his location at the time he heard "a backfire," and that he was "getting stock" on both the fifth and sixth floors. Since the only other persons known to be upstairs - the "three blind mice" at the front windows - were away from the elevators. While any could have left the gate open (despite Jarman's testimony that he'd closed it upon exiting), Jack's proximity to the west-side freight elevator - "ten feet west of the west elevator" - his "getting stock," and his admission that he'd ridden the freight elevator downstairs after hearing the "backfire," does more than simply suggest that it was Jack who'd had the elevator gate open. When Roy Truly saw the elevators upstairs, he not only yelled up for it, but also rang a bell that was used to alert anyone using the elevator that someone else needed it and to make sure the gate was closed. Standing directly beside it, Jack did not react to the bell or Truly's yelling. Whether this was a pre-arranged signal or not, it certainly served to alert anyone upstairs that someone else wanted to use the elevator. Since Bonnie Ray could've seen Oswald but apparently didn't (he'd have had no fear of retribution from Oswald after the weekend was over, so if he'd seen him he could have said so), and had been upstairs past the time that the parade had been scheduled to go by - meaning that anyone who'd intended to shoot the President would have had to have been in position before the scheduled 12:25 arrival - and Jack did not get run over (or hear or see anything) while standing directly in Oswald's presumed path from the time he'd heard the "backfire" until he'd taken the elevator downstairs after Truly had started upstairs, demonstrates conclusively that Oswald was not upstairs; someone else therefore must have been. Whoever was upstairs doing the shooting was not constrained by the time needed to meet Officer Baker on the second floor, and thus had nearly all of the time that it took Baker to run inside, wait for the elevator briefly, start upstairs, encounter Oswald, and run up the remaining flights of stairs, stopping to look beyond each landing, before it was necessary to go down ... or possibly up to wait at the sixth floor while Baker & Truly boarded the east elevator (which Truly did not even remark to Baker about its being missing when they got there) and rode it up to the seventh floor, clearing the way for the freight elevator to go down without the chance of encountering Baker on the way. ... And that, my friends, is how it's quite possible that the fatal shot came from the 6th floor southeast window without having been fired by Lee Oswald. It likewise explains the "elderly Negro" (Bonnie Ray with white stuff in his hair) seen by someone on the street, and it's my bet that it was Jack Dougherty both standing at "parade rest" (his WWII service before his release on medical grounds was guarding aircraft on the ground, i.e., sentry duty) and babysitting Bonnie Ray and the boys on the fifth floor to make sure they didn't go downstairs before the shooting was done, as well as how the shooter(s) got out of the building. Luke Mooney saw them on his way upstairs but apparently never realized it. In the "Men Who Killed Kennedy", Governor Connelly describes what happened at the time of the shots and talks about Kennedy's brains being on the back of the limousine. "Governor Connelly says he heard what he thought was a rifle shot, in response to this he turned and looked over his right shoulder, because that was where he describes the sound to have come from, and when he did not see anything because Kennedy had leant forward, he turned back again and then felt a blow to his back which he describes to have felt like a ‘fist’ hitting his back. The force of such a blow bent him over and he noticed he was covered with blood. The shirt was straight afterwards dry-cleaned to remove all traces of any blood. He then remarks, “Oh my God, they’re going to kill us all”. He says it with a calm resilient tone in his voice, as if he thinks whoever is shooting is going to take everyone out, including himself, which he may not have expected. Connelly states that he also heard another shot and says he saw blood and brain tissue all over the back of the limousine. He states that at this point he knows the president had been fatally hit because Mrs. Kennedy said, “My God, I’ve got his brains in my hand”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QkKkXYtr4

Staking out a niche market. The one Foot In Both camps brigade are now accommodated. Vince, I have been searching for a reason to apologize for the remarks I made about you a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, I can not. If someone even takes a cursory look at the so called evidence used to frame Oswald, they would see that the SBT can not be proven. The rest of the story then becomes suspect and even implausible, and the whole charade falls apart. It is not rocket science. It has only been because of big names that the story continues to this day. The question is; why have so many of these names been thrown behind this story? And, why do they have to do that in the first place? Because…. If the cover story was believable in the first place, this gargantuan effort of convincing people that it is true wouldn’t have to be.

From a Lawyer's Brief: The press made much of the fact that Oswald had been seen with a copy of the Worker, a Communist publication , and that he had received a least two letters from the Communist Party. A New York newspaper referred to him editorially as a "Communist murderer." Did Oswald not know that the U. S. Communist party supported Kennedy when he ran for the presidency in 1960 and that within the last six months Gus Hall urged the the CP , which he heads, to endorse and support Kennedy again? Why should Oswald wish to assassinate the President; and after firing at the President, how did he plan to escape? Did he wish to flee from the building? If so, why did he remain in the lunchroom sipping a soda? Was he in a hurry? If so, why did he take a ride on a bus? It was a very warm day in Dallas. Mrs. Kennedy, sweltering in the open moving car, later said that she was looking forward to the cool relief of riding through the underpass just ahead. Why then , did Oswald , seeking to escape the police , go home to pick up his jacket? If he was planning to leave the city , why did he then go to a movie just as the city-wide search was gaining intensity?

I see what you are doing, Carl. And I think it is good. Correct me if I am wrong but this excercise will point out all the official facts as you put them that are simply ignored by everyone. Another words they are ignoring the official facts in the case and blindly believing the official conclusion, which is contradicted by the official facts. And that would not surprise me! Although I am dizzy now.

All right. I will bite; 4) The fact that the Single Bullet Theory can not be proven. ( here is major lack of evidence, or evidence of a frame job) 5) Mulitiple Parkland Hospital testimony to shots from the front. 6) Negative Parafin test and false report of a positive test by Chief Curry.

Tim, why do you seem to appear on this forum arguing something from the ground up? This isn't a "practice my debate skills forum". This particular argument is weak in facts and lame in presentation. George McGovern? Who was George McGovern? A LOT of people like this guy and for good reason; furthermore, his opponent is unqualified in intellect and personality. Yea, Yea , Yea, he is a war hero. I salute him for that. Back to your motivation…..

Interesting commont the the blog: 1 comments: rusty said... in 1963 america was looking forward to a total of 24 years worth of kennedys in the white house. lyndon johnson, richard nixon, ronald reagan and, yes, even george bush sr. DID NOT LIKE THE LOOKS OF THAT. when everyone agrees on what needs to happen there is no conspiracy. June 6, 2008 1:44 AM Post a Comment Newer Post Older Post Home Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom

From the speech written by Ted Sorenson: "If I am elected president, my vow for this country can be summarized in one short, simple word: change. This November 2008 election -- the first since 1952 in which neither the incumbent president’s nor the incumbent vice president’s name will appear on the national ballot, indeed the first since 1976 in which the name of neither Bill Clinton nor George Bush will appear on the national ballot -- is destined to bring about the most profound change in the direction of this country since the election of 1932." "I’m told that John F. Kennedy was fond of quoting Archimedes, who explained the principle of the lever by declaring: “Give me a place to stand, and I can move the world.” My fellow Americans -- here I stand. Come join me, and together we will move the world to a new era of a just and lasting peace."

He certainly never stated or implied any such thing on this forum, or anywhere else that I know of. I think Vince's practice is to leave name-calling to the likes of you. You seem to be quite skilled in that department. Hey, I don't think Vince called us anything. But he did call Lee Harvey Oswald the sole assassin of President Kennedy and a Pipsqueak, a point I must take issue with. If LHO killed JFK all by himself without any assistance then how come he's not the world's greatest assassin? That's what I want to know. Why is he a Pipsqueak rather than a great assassin? Which way is it Vince? And Vince's new Mentor VB, he has the same problem, as one the one hand he says the assassin did it all by himself, and on the other hand, he was such a jerk nobody would have had him as part of a conspiracy, a clear contradiction, except in their minds. BK Once again, well put Mr. Kelly. Which is it folks? If you believe Oswald got in some accurate shots with that vintage rifle (even at the time), then he has got to be characterized as a great assassin. Murderer, for sure, but he should be called a great assassin. And loathing should rain down on him for killing our beloved President. Do the likes of the Jackal and other notorious assassins get the same treatment? Why call this successful assassin a loser? Furthermore, he nearly got a way with it. He got out of the building and was on the loose for a great deal of time. Surely, since this was premeditated murder, he had an escape plan. But not this guy, he kills the president and zig zags around town for awhile and then traps himself in a movie theatre. Now that’s where he gets dumb. ( or he was told to go there)

Think again, Tim. According to this writer, Obama has done a lot is his short time in the Senate. Perhaps he just didn't have the time to go into his record during the occasion you refer to: I found the BEEF - Obama's Senate Record by Helenann Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 02:19:52 PM PDT It has really been bothering me - the charges that Obama is all talk and no action. Those of us who support him and have reviewed his record know there is no basis to this charge, but just to make sure, I went to the Congressional Record http://www.thomas.gov and did a search for bills sponsored or co-sponsored by Senator Obama in his three short years in the US Senate. I searched the 109th and 110th Congresses which cover the years 2005-2007. In a nut shell I found: Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress. Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005. Senator Obama has also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate. His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois. Details below the fold. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/2.../783/290/461422