Chris Davidson

Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry Hi Jerry, It looks like his right shoulder, along with his neck and ear exposed, when compared to JBC's profile. It appears that Greer's head is turned even farther towards the rear seat than JBC's, when a comparison is made. I've stabilized Greer in this movie. http://98.155.2.255:8400/89944/Headturn.mov If you look closely, you can actually see his head/face in some of it. I don't see the extent of his head turn in Z, that I do in Altgen's at frame 254/255. What do you think? chris

What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's? According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris

"What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?" It gives me a headache! Actually, the Drommer works are some of the most accurate information available. There is of course, the old "however". Without that knowledge contained within the previous survey works, as well as the actual survey notes, the Drommer work merely leaves one with information in which much of that information is not even know the significance of. Is it not "Chris" who has the Drommer plat??? Whoever it was, many of the "keys" to deciphering this important document have been provided. As to "accuracy" on other survey items, therein lies much of the problems. Very little of any of the actual survey was done beyond the accuracy of degrees & minutes. (no angles, (vertical or horizontal) were taken to the "seconds" of accuracy. Likewise, one must place into perspective that this was the "old" days of tape measures and long/drawn out mathmatical calculations utilizing logrithmic tables as well as the process of interpolation. All of which interject a given amount of error by nature of the process. And, although I never thought to ask Mr. West as to exactly why the survey accuracy was of such an extent to have actually allowed for such errors, I would bet my beret on the fact that the WC did not want such detailed accuracy. Kind of difficult to complete pull the wool over someone's eyes when there is no room for error. That information gathered during the Time/Life work is unfortunately the most lacking in physical accuracy, but then again, it was all done within a single day's time without benefit of any true physical survey related to the topographic terrain/surrounding area. So, as much as possession of this information aides one in resolution of some problems, it only generates further confusion and speculations among those who do not understand that, by it's very nature, the process was somewhat flawed even without the WC's interjected alignment errors. Hi Tom, Yes, I do have the Drommer plat. Many others do also. I recommend converting the resolution of Drommer from 72 to 100 DPI. Might help with the 1inch=10Ft. key. Some important info from Tom in previous posting's. It is highly unlikely that, from this limited testimony, one would be aware that the SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 was even generated and that actually some four days of survey work (December 2/3/4/ with a full scale re-enactment complete with Lincoln Continental convertable limo and surveyed in positions for JFK conducted on the 5th, actually transpired. Unless of course one had a copy of the Survey Plat as well as the survey notes. This is why, with the current survey notes which Mr. West provided to me, were one to obtain authorization to do so, Dealy Plaza could be re-constructed back, virtually exactly, to it's 11/22/63 configuration, complete with road signs; lamp posts; yellow marks on the curb; manhole and inlet covers; correct elevation differences; etc; etc; etc. The great majority of this accurate survey data was obtained during the three days of survey work in December, 1963 when Mr. West did the work and assassination re-enactment for the US Secret Service. And, fortunately, this work was done PRIOR to anyone seeing the need to begin moving and/or elimination of many items. chris

Craig, I wasn't inferring any type of fakery. It was just an observation about the difference in the two photos. Here's what you get if you reverse the comparison and reduce the size of the larger scale to fit the smaller. That's a reduction to 35.9%. I think Blair is on the right track. chris

No need Jack, I knew the answer. I just wanted you to put in print. Given the utter failure of your work, I can understand your reluctance. Now let me show you a little Photo 101. Pay attention, then study the photo that is attached, and then we can all see why your work on the backyard photos fail...and why you got creamed in Washington. You simply don't have the first clue about any of this. Craig, Can you supply the full photo of the top and bottom originals in your comparison? Was the same ruler used, I noticed a difference in the top photo. chris

I'm pretty sure this all has to do with time syncing before the limo gets to Elm St. cheers chris

Muchmore somewhat stabilized. I see 1 partial salute. chris

Hughes stabilized. chris

Thanks Robin, We now have a guy in white pants. Along with 2 other men to his left, not counting the 3rd guy which we can't see in Dorman, but is in other photos/film. The nice thing about movies is the motion of human's when stabilized. Such as the 2 gentleman who salute the limo as it passes by. I suggest trying to locate this action in any of the other photos/movies. Try Muchmore first, then go onto Hughes. chris

Jack, Might also ask where the guy in white pants is. Should be somewhere near the missing man in black. chris

Jack, I believe I'm wrong with this one. His missing leg. http://98.155.2.255:8400/33178/Leg.mov chris

Now, A complete leg. Which one is it going to be, a missing leg before LBJ's car passes him or a complete leg after he passes. chris

Chris...that is my point...IT IS ANATOMICALLY INCORRECT! I must disagree with your assessment. Watch the entire sequence IN MOTION. You clearly see THE ARM SWING, THE THUMB EXTEND, ETC. What you see as his folded arm appears to be a broad black belt which goes around his waist and is seen in back. I will be glad to do a complete study of the man, but it is unnecessary if one watches IN MOTION as the "arm" swings and the thumb extends. It is ALL ANIMATION, and poorly done. The best way to view it is ONE FRAME AT A TIME. Jack Jack, I totally agree. It is anatomically incorrect. I do see the incorrect anatomic arm swing and extending thumb. But I also see his left arm folded across his waist. (red arrow) Which is a different color than the black waist stripe. I'm still with you on this and if others will look a bit closer, they might see a missing leg. (red box) chris

Bernice, That is not his left arm. His left arm is folded across his waist. It is holding something which leads through his armpit and droops back behind his left leg. It looks like an arm and hand or is supposed to be an arm/hand, but is not, and can't be. (Anatomically speaking). It also seems as if the drooping hand attached to the drooping arm disappears for a few frames. Watch closely. See if this looped movie helps. chris

Jack, This is Nix stabilized. http://98.155.2.255:8400/95505/2.gif chris

Thanks Bernice, That would be my work. As I have stated many times before, the same photo method which brought Charles Hester out of the shadows (or whoever it is) in Bell, shows this stranger inside the pergola. chris

I assume you mean BEIGE...the color of Sitzman's dress. You think she is the woman on the ground? Beatrice was wearing GREEN, so I don't think she is a match. Jack, What I mistook for pink or beige appears to be the step behind her. Yes, I meant the object on the ground in front of the rising silhouette. chris

Thanks Chris I am still thinking I was on the right lines above as I think the person in the colonnade already is Mr Hester who has got up and walked away from his wife. The movement we see is Mrs Hester rising up to a sitting position under her own steam as seen a bit later on in Wiegman if you run it a bit longer than the bit where they are both on the ground together. I will try and find a frame from Wiegman that shows it but the part I am thinking of is where she rises to a sitting position from lying down on her own as her husband is already up and behind her and about to walk behind the pillar in the pergola which is what I think is seen in Bell. I'm not sure about the bit above with John Dolva and any smoke as I haven't looked for that as yet... Cheers David David, Upon closer examination, I'm now inclined to agree with you. Looking at Wiegman, what I believed to be the pink clothing of a person, now looks to be the concrete step behind her, as she moves her arms apart. Attach this to the newspaper and black bag and a matching body is created. This stabilization should help. If we only had quality films. nice work, chris

I think it's been staring us in the face for a long time. Who was in PINK in that area? chris

David, That is what I thought when I originally did the research. But you have to come up with a plausible explanation for the shape that's lying on the ground(not rising) which fits Beatrice Hester to a T. in two different films. As you can see in the Bell gif I did, someone is at the colonnade already and someone is starting to rise from the object on the ground. Let me add a few other tidbits to this. 1. Here is the Bell and Nix frame side by side. Notice a similarity between the angle of the 2 films. I believe most people try to shoot film/photos level to the horizon. Coincidence????? 2. John Dolva has pointed out he thought their might be some shenanigan's near the colonnade. (Totally unrelated research as far as I know.) I stabilize Nix and there appears to be a blue discoloration (possibly smoke) of the film, after the headshot. Charles Hester (or whomever that is) ends up at that exact spot. Here's the reminder stabilized gif of that area from Nix. chris

hi jack , well it was dixie that brought this thread back to life so i know she is interested . and really i have been watching for info on them for years and picking up what bits and typing out from books etc i have read or whatever wee gems may appear on the sites, because of the connection to marilyn that day and the peggy burney info to the contrary that she was with zapruder and filmed from the street......but there is very little there not much and only in the Livingstone book was anything new that came out in ages of which i was grateful if it is not out there or is known by say the dallas people and is not released for others by them then it is that continuing brick wall..i mention at times....many thanks for your input this thread turned out to be informative and a saver...best b..if i have doubled with any photos below that have been posted so far i will check and delete to save resources...take care all best ..two did not take so you must open them... Thanks, Bernice, for the Hester stuff. See attachment with questions. A little progress. I still think that WiegHester and ZapHesters are not the same couples, based on the dress Beatrice is wearing. Jack PS. I need to clarify "where is her husband?" by comparing this image to others. Obviously there is a black shape that is supposed to be him. I intended to rework that sentence. jack contact chris davidson seems to he that he did research on the black shape with some and came to the conclusion it was wiegman himself look in that direction the thread may be here on the f but is so i have no idea the title perhaps he will come along or and will find it...best b.. is this any help bell... Thanks Bernice, Jack, I did a great deal of work filmwise with Bell/Wiegman awhile ago. Quite possibly I didn't convey my findings clearly. So I will start with this movie which actually would be a conclusion to what I found. My conclusion is: The Bell film shows 2 different people rise up from (so called) Beatrice Hester who is on the ground. One person we see in the Wiegman film. The second we do not. I have shown this with previous animation's when I exposed the other person (in the shadows) from the Bell film. (Gif provided) Someone would have to show that the body shape of (so called) Beatrice Hester on the ground is not a person at all. I think the supplied movie comparing the body shape in Bell/Wiegman puts that argument to rest. Any questions I'm all ears, chris

Chris, You are a sphinx! Believe me, I mean that in the best possible way! Are there any more good frames from the movie or was this it for our purposes here? My very best regards to you, Jerry Jerry The frame is from Don Cook's footage I believe By the way thanks for pointing out the full plat shows Nix numbered locations from my earlier comment. I hadn't seen the full version.. Robin I am interested in getting a copy of the DVD you recommended a few posts back but Googling around for "Murder in Dealey Plaza" seems to only bring me back a book by a member of this forum ? Is it known by any other title ? Thanks David David, Thank you for the I.D. on Cook's film. Jerry, The previous frame is about as far to the corner as he gets. I have another which shows a bit more, but nothing of any significance. This is from my better copy of Cook. http://98.155.2.255:8400/82E13/Cook.mov chris

Great info Bernice. Perhaps you or Dixie can give us some insight into the length of a ladies scarf and the probability of the two different designs which Sitz (or whoever this might be) uses in these frames. Notice the scarf shape on her chest. By the way, this is the other frame I couldn't remember with both Hester/Sitz in it. (Or whoever they may be.) chris

Chris, That's a really uncommon view! Any idea for the source of the photo? Also, do you have access to a good Dorman? There are some early frames that look promising but the Groden version isn't very clear. Best to you, Jerry Jerry, I extacted that frame from a movie. Sorry, I do not know who filmed it. The beginning frames I have from Dorman are lousy. chris

Bernice, More than likely, it is something I put together. chris