Chris Davidson

San Francisco Chronicle 11-23-63

Jack Bell was 4 cars behind the limo.

I believe the whole article is rather interesting.

But the area in the box is of most importance. imo

Can someone point this out in the Z film?

chris

Has anyone studied some of the aftermath photo's to get an idea of the perspective of the slope ? There appear to be a couple with people just behind the wall and alongside it that might be useful to try and guage how much of a slope there is and where the wall comes to on the figures.....

David,

The only photo I know of which might be used for comparison

I believe the photographer's name is William Allen.

Perhaps someone has a better copy.

chris

One of Don's links:

y BOND #6, Mrs. CHISM is, measurably, 190' away from where we saw her in the WIEGMAN film --halfway between the westernmost last two light poles on the north Elm Street sidewalk-- approaching the TUP with Mr. CHISM. To get an idea of how long it took them from the WIEGMAN film to get to where we see them near the TUP in BOND #6: if Mrs. CHISM continuously trotted at a 4 m.p.h. average while carrying her son (without stopping), it would have taken her 33 seconds to get that far down Elm. After WIEGMAN's filming of the NEWMAN's we can first see the CHISM's start trotting at 32 seconds into the WIEGMAN film (4.5 seconds before the WIEGMAN film ends, which was 30 or 31 seconds after WIEGMAN. heard "his" third audible muzzle blast or mechanically-suppress-fired bullet bow shockwave). Using 4 m.p.h. as Mrs. CHISM's continuous trotting speed timestamps BOND #6 at a minimum of 63 or 64 seconds after the attack ended. (is there any statement(s) or photo evidence that the CHISM's stopped/paused during their trot? If so, a stop, pause, or slowing-down would increase the seconds of the BOND #6 timestamping even longer after the attack)

The Chism's do appear to slow down and come to a halt, as they exchange the child from Mrs. to Mr.

chris

Good Day.... Can someone who has Dale Myers CAD recreation

program confirm if Myers ever included and detailed views of the

standing SS agents on the followup Cadillac (particlularly JOHN

READY), with their headtops approximately 7' above Elm Street,

relative to Myers, supposed, "lone nut" "snipers lair" bullet

trajectory that struck President KENNEDY between Z-312 and 313.

Thank You, in advance.

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE

the President."

(my EMPHASIS)

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States

Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza

attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack, and while he

is still standing within Dealey Plaza (11-22-63 "Dallas Times

Herald," fifth & final daily edition)

Don,

Hopefully, this is what you're looking for.

chris

Mr. Hesters shadow in Bell.

Also, here is an original frame from Groden's DVD for a lighting comparison to the gif.

chris

Chris...why would Hester's shadow be darker than the shadows on the wall

on which it is superimposed?

Jack

Jack,

I think it's the reverse shadow lighting phenomenon which occured on 11-22-63.

thanks for the extra set of perceptive eyes,

chris

The sunlight played strange tricks in Dealey Plaza on 11-22. I recall that

in the Bronson slide, Zapruder and Sitzman cast no shadow on the ground.

So I am not surprised that there can be a dark shadow on top of a light

shadow, both cast by the sun.

I am surprised to see your Wiegman frames of Hester jumping up in

Wiegman. I had never seen that before looking at Wiegman. How many

frames does it take for him to spring from the ground to behind the post?

Seems too fast to be physically possible to me. Can you do a frame count

and calculate the time?

Thanks for all your excellent film work!

Jack

Jack,

I count approx 50 frames using 2 different versions.

The real time version I have puts it at 3 seconds.

chris

Bill,

Originally I thought the shadow on the grass was Mr.Hester rising over Mrs.Hester.

Sean Murphy figured out the shadow was the Mrs. rising.

I would sure like to hear more about the shadow being Mrs. Hester's for there is no way from where she was laying on the ground that her shadow could reach the wall of the colonnade. I look forward to having you clarify that claim.

The frames are from Groden's DVD. The original's are much darker than what I have presented here.

What original's are you talking about? I asked Gary Mack to view the original Bell Film and he said that it was much lighter than the poor dark images of Robert's on his DVD.

That's one of the benefits of Photoshop's Shadow/Highlight tool.

And for absolute verification that it's Mr.Hester moving in the red box, notice the shadow he casts on the concrete as he enters the colonnade.

I agree that it is Charles Hester in the red box. I have never thought otherwise. It was the red arrow illustration that I questioned.

Bill

Bill,

The red arrow indicates Mrs.Hester, not her shadow. Maybe I should refer to it as her silhouette.

When did I say her shadow reaches any wall? Where did that come from?

The original's refer to the unlightened frames off the DVD. Which is why I furnished an example.

Are you now saying you can see Mr.Hester walking in the background in Gary's version of the Bell film?

chris

Mr. Hesters shadow in Bell.

Also, here is an original frame from Groden's DVD for a lighting comparison to the gif.

chris

Chris...why would Hester's shadow be darker than the shadows on the wall

on which it is superimposed?

Jack

Jack,

I think it's the reverse shadow lighting phenomenon which occured on 11-22-63.

thanks for the extra set of perceptive eyes,

chris

Mr. Hesters shadow in Bell.

Also, here is an original frame from Groden's DVD for a lighting comparison to the gif.

chris

If you are in agreement that the 2 previous animations are the same point in time, let's proceed

This is from the Bell movie, also.

I lightened the column area in the background and stabilized it.

When the red box comes up, watch who's in it, then take a look at who is still leaning over Mrs.Hester. (red arrow)

You might want to compare that red box area movement to Mr.Hester in the previous animation.

In other words, Mr.Hester is in two places at one time.

Film has been altered, that's why the original is so dark back there.

cheers

chris

Chris,

The original film only shows shadows on the wall beyond Mrs. Hester and it is not dark like you claimed above. I am most puzzled as to why you made that statement? This darker version shown in this thread deepens the shadows and gives the impression that you may be looking at someone, but it is just an illusion. I have since contacted Gary Mack and the Museum's lighter and sharper image shows no one beyond Mrs. Hester.

Bill

Bill,

Originally I thought the shadow on the grass was Mr.Hester rising over Mrs.Hester.

Sean Murphy figured out the shadow was the Mrs. rising.

Now to your question about the shadow.

Wiegman has the Mrs. rising while Mr.Hester is stepping into the colonnade, which is what is shown in the red box/Bell film.

The frames are from Groden's DVD. The original's are much darker than what I have presented here.

That's one of the benefits of Photoshop's Shadow/Highlight tool.

I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong, but it will not happen this time.

And for absolute verification that it's Mr.Hester moving in the red box, notice the shadow he casts on the concrete as he enters the colonnade.

It's very apparent in Wiegman as well as Bell. Look carefully for the movement, it's there.

If you are telling me the original that Gary has does not show Mr.Hester, stabilize the frames and if necessary lighten them.

If he is still not there, one of these versions is altered.

Here is Mr.Hester and ground shadow in Wiegman.

Next post, Mr.Hester and ground shadow in Bell.

chris

Bill,

If Gary knows the source, I'm sure he'll chime in.

Hopefully, a reasonable explanation will show how the background of the two photos align, that appear to be from different films near the same point in time.

chris

Maybe one may be found to be a zoomed version of the other.

Bill

Thanks Bill,

You are correct.

Here's what the zoomed version looks like, from that segment.

And, matching background frames.

Zoom threw me off as it appears to be from a different angle.

chris

A few questions. 1. Why is the film in B&W and in color also? You see the family lying on the ground, which is in color.

2. If the Hesters, Zapruder and Sitzman crowded into the pergola right after the assassination, that says that there was no tripod in there, as some believe, nor a cameraman.

Kathy Collins

Kathy,

That first color frame is from another film.

Sorry about that. Sometimes when I'm extracting movie segments, I include a few unwanted frames.

I'll try to clean it up in the future.

As for who's in the pergola, let me say I'm trying to enhance what's in the shadow of the pergola, in the Bell film.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=110085

I was able to bring out Mr.Hester from the shadows of the Bell movie showing his movement back to the colonnade.

If it's Zapruder fine, my guess from preliminary viewing is it's not.

I'm sure if I had a better copy of that frame, we would probably know conclusively who that is or isn't.

But I work with what I have.

chris

Bill,

If Gary knows the source, I'm sure he'll chime in.

Hopefully, a reasonable explanation will show how the background of the two photos align, that appear to be from different films near the same point in time.

chris

Maybe one may be found to be a zoomed version of the other.

Bill

Thanks Bill,

You are correct.

Here's what the zoomed version looks like, from that segment.

And, matching background frames.

Zoom threw me off as it appears to be from a different angle.

chris

Remarkable, Chris! A seeming impossibility, if the photographer is truly not known.

I am interested in the head of a person crouching behind the pedestal. Who is it?

Jack

What does anyone wish to bet that any film seen on the Discovery Channel will have a known source for its author. That the information one seeks will be known by Gary Mack who usually is the one these documentaries go to for information, if not the films themselves.

The head seen over the pedestal IS NOT someone crouching, but rather one of the Hester's entering the shelter where both Hester's, Zapruder, and Sitzman all met following the shooting. See "Pictures of the Pain" for more details.

Bill

Bill,

If Gary knows the source, I'm sure he'll chime in.

Hopefully, a reasonable explanation will show how the background of the two photos align, that appear to be from different films near the same point in time.

chris

I was doing some time syncing and I put this together.

The motorcade stopped for a brief time after the assassination.

When it started moving again, Malcolm Couch shot some video from his convertible as they are driving down Elm.

The top two pictures (left to right) show part of his film.

I have pointed out Mrs Chism's shadow and Altgen's in the left top photo, then Mrs.Chism in the right top photo and Altgens who would be viewable, but Bob Jackson's profile now shields Altgens.

The lower left photo shows Mrs.Chism and Altgen's again,close to the same position's as they are in the Couch film.

The only other film I know of, taken anywhere near Couch's position at this time was by Jimmy Darnell, who was on the south side of Elm at the curb. (Lower right frame from his film). Different camera position.

The animation is 1 frame of Couch and 1 from the ? film.

From what I can see, the camera position's appear to be the same.

How is this posible at or near the same point in time?

Who's film is this?

thanks

chris

Credit to Jack for this enhancement.

chris

I think it is a perspective problem.

Altgens shooting from the left, Wiegman shooting from the right.

The concrete pillars behind Mrs Hester look similar but are two different pillars.

Chris, Robin, Bernice et al.,

Pardon off topic, but please advise:

Is the running man in this Bell (red arrow) the same man running in Dillard 3?

Does anyone have a better copy of Dillard 3?

Thanks

Miles

Miles,

Yes, that is the same man. It's cameraman Tom Atkins.

Here's what I have for Dillard.

chris

After seeing Chris's clear Bell gif, of Sitzman making a left turn to head towards the pergola entrance, and Zapruder walking over towards the hester's area.

I am now more convinced than ever, that Altgens 8 shows Sitzman and Zapruder standing near the pedestal as they are starting to walk.

Robin,

I'm not sure if Sean passed this one along to you, also.

I stabilized the Paschall film. Sorry, the only version I have.

Does this appear to support your conclusion?

It seems as if Z appears out of the wall shadow and by this time , both are well apart.

Also, since this is nonstop footage, shouldn't we see a trail of Zapruder leading directly from the shadow?

chris

Jack,

The Altgen's/right side version looks like something I would build.

Bad cut and paste job

Openings next to the yellow dot at right, are not correct.

thanks

chris

Good work, Chris. But the Hesters are the ones on the left, on the grass. I'm not sure who that other couple is. They look pretty young. Maybe they're still alive.

As far as the shape in the red box, it sure looks like a man, and it's not Hester, as Hester is still on the ground with his wife. Do we see this figure in any other photos?

Pat,

The Hester's are the couple in the background.

The Newman's are at the bottom of the knoll in the foreground, Mrs.Newman is in red.

If you look at the movement of the man in the red box, he ends up in the same spot as Mr.Hester does in the Wiegman clip.

chris

By the other couple I meant the ones by the sign in the first image. I thought you were saying that was the Hesters when the Hesters are at the far left. It is indeed mysterious that someone seems to be moving just where Mr. Hester runs, but before he gets up to run there. I think it could be someone else, however. I'll look at it some more.

On second look, it appears that the figure comes out from behind the pillar heading west in the clip on post 3. Can you isolate the figure? Could it be one of the newsmen running around looking back in the train yards? Could it be Lem Johns?

Pat and others,

Don't waste your time on this.

I get to eat crow again.

Sean Murphy has figured out what I could not see.

That is Mrs.Hester's coat in front of her. Tannish color object in Bell.

It appears in the shape of a body form. imo

She rises above it as we see in both Wiegman and Bell.

This sync's with Mr.Hester's appearance in the red box.

The bombshell turned into a marshmallow.

chris

Good work, Chris. But the Hesters are the ones on the left, on the grass. I'm not sure who that other couple is. They look pretty young. Maybe they're still alive.

As far as the shape in the red box, it sure looks like a man, and it's not Hester, as Hester is still on the ground with his wife. Do we see this figure in any other photos?

Pat,

The Hester's are the couple in the background.

The Newman's are at the bottom of the knoll in the foreground, Mrs.Newman is in red.

If you look at the movement of the man in the red box, he ends up in the same spot as Mr.Hester does in the Wiegman clip.

chris

Have you compared these clips to the faked Altgens 8?

Jack

Jack,

The insets are from Wiegman.

Take a look at the Hester's in both.

Only comparison I've done for time sync.

chris

Good work, Chris. But the Hesters are the ones on the left, on the grass. I'm not sure who that other couple is. They look pretty young. Maybe they're still alive.

As far as the shape in the red box, it sure looks like a man, and it's not Hester, as Hester is still on the ground with his wife. Do we see this figure in any other photos?

Pat,

The Hester's are the couple in the background.

The Newman's are at the bottom of the knoll in the foreground, Mrs.Newman is in red.

If you look at the movement of the man in the red box, he ends up in the same spot as Mr.Hester does in the Wiegman clip.

chris

Chris...why do you say it is Hester in the red box?

By the way...when last seen, Hester was sitting on a bench at the east

end of the pergola. How did he get to the west end so fast? (See Bronson

slide)

Did you know that researchers have made great efforts to locate the Hesters

without success? One wealthy researcher even resorted to a private eye.

For all practical purposes, the Hesters have vanished.

Jack

Jack,

What I have posted occurs after the assassination.

I'm only going by what the two films tell me.

Same point in time.

If that's not Mr.Hester in the red box, somebody should show up in Wiegman's background as he is filming the Hester's.

Here's a little longer clip of the Hester's and no-one near the background columns.

In fact, Mr.Hester ends up in the same spot in the red box as he does in Wiegman.

chris

This last one is for continuity between the previous Bell's I have supplied.

chris

If you are in agreement that the 2 previous animations are the same point in time, let's proceed

This is from the Bell movie, also.

I lightened the column area in the background and stabilized it.

When the red box comes up, watch who's in it, then take a look at who is still leaning over Mrs.Hester. (red arrow)

You might want to compare that red box area movement to Mr.Hester in the previous animation.

In other words, Mr.Hester is in two places at one time.

Film has been altered, that's why the original is so dark back there.

cheers

chris

A few days ago, I started a thread about the Bell movie using a frame from it. Pointed out a man in the pergola who I stated was not Zapruder.

Let me try to re-enforce that thread by expanding on the Bell film in a little different area.

In Bell's film, he captures cameraman Dave Wiegman filming the Hester's.

The footage in Bell shows Mr.Hester pushing off and rising from Mrs.Hester.

Dave Wiegman's film shows this occuring,also.

I have used this point in both films, to sync them up.

The two animations I am supplying at this point, show the activity I have described above.

It's important to understand this, before I drop the bombshell in my next post. imo

thanks

chris

Can anyone enlighten me?

Where are the marked railroad lines going?

They appear to me to be going

into the picket fence.

The central line will - if it continues

on its logical curve - end up on Elm Street?

Is this possible?

IMO, there is something strange about these railroad lines?

I am unfamiliar with the exact configuration

of the railway lines behind the picket fence and

around the car lot area.

Perhaps these railway lines are disused and are

the remnants of earlier lines?

Has anyone an accurate photograph of the layout

of the railway lines on 22nd November 1963?

EBC

Eugene,

If it helps.

chris