Myra Bronstein

OHMYGOD. I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now. It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account." It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon. At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin: Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S." ... Asset>"The S.S.?" Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too." Footnotes: S.S.--The Secret Service Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life Shoes--False documents Ahem... Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975 GOOD eye Chuck. --- Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html "... 1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald (To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing." (To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June." 2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley "I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair." 3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit "I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes." (Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.") ..." If "visa or ID" was the context of the statement...that would imply that Robert and Marina were aware of the intelligence work being performed by "Harvey". ... Not necessarily. Lee could have been hoping that his wife or brother would repeat his comments to... "friends"--like the Paines or George de Mohrenschildt, who would understand the "shoe" reference. When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are.[/b] . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes." If Lee had just made one "shoe" comment, esp to his wife, I'd be inclined to dismiss it as an attempt to act normal to calm her down and discuss mundane things couples discuss while showing concern for his child. But the fact that he mentioned "shoes" twice within his short incarceration, once to his brother in the context of the Paines, makes me really think it's possible that "shoes" documents and cover. Lee was under unbelievable stress so maybe his comments were a bit odd... but he said the shoe thing twice to immediate family members.

Thank you Jack, and to everyone who is posting pix. Really useful resource. And nicely arranged.

Not a flight risk???! He escaped from a Venezuelan prison! So what kind of strings had to be pulled to get that bail set? And now he has to get either killed (as Castro said) or pardoned or scuttled off to another country. Maybe he can go wherever Key Lay is (and lay low...)

Of course this is the description quoted at http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP/ that matches Hemming.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_5573470 "On June 5, 1963, President John F. Kennedy visited White Sands Missile Range to watch a series of missile firings. The event was called Project MEWS, which stood for "Missile Exercise White Sands." One of the speakers that day was a young Army captain named Dan Duggan. He eventually came back to White Sands as the deputy commander and retired to Las Cruces. Duggan donated his copy of the operations order for MEWS to the missile range back in 1996. The order includes a schedule that was as tight as a cheap T-shirt on Arnold Schwarzenegger. ... For Kennedy's visit the range launched seven missiles against a variety of targets including another missile, a hillside and several remotely controlled jet aircraft. ... After the demonstrations, representative soldiers from the various missile crews presented the president with a model of the Sergeant missile and the vice president with a Pershing plaque. The last thing on the agenda was a 20-minute briefing for just the presidential party on the Nike Zeus system. Dan Duggan gave the briefing on the Nike Zeus firing and then participated in the longer classified briefing about the system. About the experience, Duggan said, "As a young project officer, I can tell you I was impressed." He added, "Having never had the opportunity before to speak directly to a president in person, not to mention a detailed technical conversation, I was very impressed how disarming President Kennedy was. He put you at ease and after only a few words, you felt that you had known him for years and talked with him every day." Kennedy is still the only president to visit White Sands while in office. ..." (The pentagon sure tried to sell him on armaments for fun and profit, but he wasn't buying.)

Ken: Many thanks for this information. If we could only get someone to copy the transcript and make it available online.... Vince Palamara discusses the rumor in Chapter 9 of SURVIVOR'S GUILT, beginning at Page 5: "All three major television networks—ABC, NBC, and CBS—reported that “a Se- cret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed” on Novem- ber 22, 1963. Eddie Barker, KRLD–TV, a CBS affiliate, noted, “The word is that the President was killed, one of his agents is dead, and Governor Connally was wounded.” ABC News in Washington reported: “A Secret Service agent appar- ently was shot by one of the assassin’s bullets.” ABC’s Bill Lord stated: “ did confirm the death of the Secret Service agent … one of the Secret Service agents was killed … Secret Service agents usually walk right beside the car.” ABC Washington also noted, “One of the Secret Service agents traveling with the President was killed today.” The Associated Press (AP) was quoted on WFAA (ABC): “A Secret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed some distance from where the President was shot.” At 12:45 p.m. Central Stan- dard Time (CST), KRLD–TV reported that a Secret Service agent had been killed along with the President. At 1:23 pm CST, CBS’s Walter Cronkite reported, “A Secret Service man was also killed in the fusillade of shots.” Seth Kantor, a re- porter for Scripps-Howard, would write in his notebook (which was published by the Warren Commission): “They even have to die in secret.” 26 At 2:14 pm, the AP again made note: “A Secret Service Agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed today.” The Dallas Police radio, Channel 2, also carried the story (2:40 p.m.): “One of the Secret Service men on the field—Elm and Houston, said that it came over his Teletype that one of the Secret Service men had been killed.” 27 The Dallas Times Herald, dateline November 22, 1963, added: “From the Secret Service office in Dallas—a spokesman could neither confirm or deny the report: ‘All I’ve heard is the same reports you’ve heard [sic]’.” However, at 3:40 p.m. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Robert A. Wallace reported, “No Secret Service man was injured in the attack on President Kennedy [emphasis added]”, a denial of sorts, but it does not indicate if one was killed, or if there was violence away from “the attack on President Kennedy”. Still, these stories could have served the purpose of supplying the Secret Service with the much- needed jurisdiction to take over and steal the body of JFK from the Dallas au- thorities (which is what, in fact, they did). Remember, while the murder of the President was not a federal crime in 1963, the murder of a Secret Service agent was a federal crime. 28 Perhaps this explains the proliferation of the tale of the “dead” agent on November 22, 1963." http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n1.html Palamara goes on to discuss claims that the story is true, but I think we can say with confidence, more than forty years after after the fact, that no Secret Service agent suffered so much as a scratch in that agency's "efforts" to protect JFK. The story about a dead Secret Service agent was simply a false rumor, apparently spread by SOMEONE in the DPD. The Warren Commission should have tracked down the source of this rumor, but did not. Palamara's guess that SSA spread the rumor to create a cover for Federal Jurisdiction is just that, a guess. For people listening to radio and TV that day it would have seemed odd if there was no mention of the Secret Service, who were supposed to be protecting the President. These initial reports created the immediate illusion that the Secret Service had in fact tried to protect the President, and would have served the function of calming the public mind. The "story" of a fearless SSA agent who gave his life defending his President meant that the American system of government was working, even if not completely perfect. If members of the Secret Service were involved in the plot to kill JFK, it would make good sense to spread a false rumor that would show their agency in a heroic light. First impressions are the most important, and this rumor gave Americans the first impression that the Secret Service had done their job. All that remained was to make sure attention now focused on Lee Oswald, and the Secret Service's dereliction of duty would be forgotten. Good summary J. Ray, thanks.

I don't know for sure, but I recall hearing about a pool of blood on the sidewalk near the TSBD, and possibly one near the cement steps on the knoll. Seriously? They murdered the President of the United States and got away with it. Clearly they could "disappear" anyone they wanted.

I'm sorry John. I took a break from reading "Conspiracy: The Plot to Stop the Kennedys" to read Mark Lane's "Executive Action," 'cause it's an inter-library loan and can't be checked out for very long. I'll get back to the "Conspiracy" book in a week or two. Don't hesitate to remind me (in fact I'd appreciate it) if I forget to answer your question within two or three weeks.

Possibility 1 = Non SS agent with SS "shoes" shot dead and story suppressed. (As Chuck suggested.) Possibility 2 = CIA Penetration Agent (infiltrating for life) within SS shot dead and story suppressed. Possibility 3 = Real SS agent (whether in on the plot or not) shot dead with telltale high blood alcohol level and/or drugs in his system and story suppressed.

OHMYGOD. I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now. It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account." It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon. At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin: Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S." ... Asset>"The S.S.?" Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too." Footnotes: S.S.--The Secret Service Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life Shoes--False documents Ahem... Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975 GOOD eye Chuck. --- Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html "... 1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald (To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing." (To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June." 2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley "I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair." 3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit "I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes." (Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.") ..."

Thanks Charles. I've had the hardest time finding good books about Jonestown and the CIA link. Even Mark Lane's book leaves a lot of unanswered questions, and he's usually the oracle. Myra, Do you know "Was Jonestown a CIA Medical Experiment?: A Review of the Evidence" (Studies in American Religion, Vol 35), by Michael Meiers. Currently available on Amazon for $160, but well worth the expense if possible. Charles Never heard of that one Charles. $160 eh? Sounds like it'd be well worth the trouble of ordering it at the library. Thanks. Pssst, what did they decide on whether it was a medical experiment: yes or no? Seems like if they decided no they wouldn't have had much of a book...

It's obvious in the pix, taken in the Hotel Texas parking lot, that the crowd adored the President. http://www.dallasobserver.com/blogs/?p=2679 "On Thursday night, during the AFI Dallas International Film Festival’s opening-night wingding at Neiman Marcus, Bill Paxton regaled a few of us with tales of his having seen John Kennedy during the president’s Fort Worth stopover the morning of November 22, 1963. Paxton, who was 8 years old at the time, recalled seeing Kennedy speak in the parking lot of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth; he said he’d been hoisted on the shoulders of an African-American man he’d only just met, who had offered the kid a better view of the president. He recalled having been there with his older brother, Bob, and their dad. Paxton’s but one of thousands of folks from around these parts with tales of having seen Kennedy during his fateful trip to Fort Worth and Dallas. My dad, who was then a student at SMU, saw him as the motorcade drove out of Love Field, and my mom was working as an X-ray tech at Parkland Hospital when Kennedy was brought in. But Paxton now has one thing those thousands do not have: proof he was there, in the presence of the president on his last day alive. He has the photos. Friday afternoon, around 4:30, the star of such films as A Simple Plan, Aliens and One False Move left our interview so he could get a private tour of the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. He was also scheduled to give an oral history — to leave a permanent record of what, so far, had been nothing more than an interesting cocktail-party story. Paxton was also going to view some footage from a film taken by Roy Cooper, a cameraman for KTVT-TV in 1963. Paxton thought there was a chance he was in that footage. He was right. ... “Bill, his older brother Bob, and his father were apparently close to the front,” says Deborah Marine, manager of PR and promotions at the museum. “The image where Bill is looking straight into the camera came from the moment Lyndon Johnson introduced President Kennedy to the crowd. The smiling, clapping Bill in the other image was captured during Kennedy’s brief speech.” Marine says that in the 30-minute oral history, which has not yet been transcribed, “he describes the experience in detail.” She also tells Unfair Park that Paxton was thrilled to find the photos: “We have over 24,000 items in our collection, and people can use them to track themselves or relatives, so we were also excited when he could identify himself and his relatives.” When Paxton’s oral history is transcribed, it will be available for anyone to view. Till then, these photos are more than enough — especially for Paxton, who, till only last week, had only a couple of stories he could share over a couple of beers. Now, he can take these photos and say to people, as he said to us Saturday afternoon, “That’s me." The Sixth Floor Museum helped him find these photos. Nice.

************************************************************ I've studied and researched some the world's different religious sects, and what I've come to observe is that the more devoutly religious, or the more zealously religious, a particular group of people embrace their particular faith, the more easily manipulated they appear to be as a group. Especially, when viewed by those not affected by that particular affiliation, or belief system. This seemingly praiseworthy virtue of innocent blind faith, would appear to make them easy targets for certain organizations to extort, or recruit the services of those seeking a sure passage or a one-way ticket to paradise, heaven, nirvana, or wherever their particular faith believes there is an afterlife. ... Oh heck yes. Perfectly said Terry. Blind faith is fresh meat for vultures. Or would sharks make it a better metaphor?

Thanks Charles. I've had the hardest time finding good books about Jonestown and the CIA link. Even Mark Lane's book leaves a lot of unanswered questions, and he's usually the oracle.

Sort of related... I never got to the Jesuits - are you limiting this to JFK related [doesn't appear so from the link]? 'Cults' only or Religious organizations as well? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;hl=religious - lee And then there's this link: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;hl=Marquette [Regarding McAdams]: "On top of that, his university has found it necessary at times to reprimand him for his excesses. He features writings by questionable agents of disinformation. His specialty is superficial "debunking" of important information concerning Roscoe White, Jean Hill, Lee Bowers, Madeleine Brown, etc. His website, though apparently from Marquette, apparently is not sponsored by the school nor related to his area of study and teaching. Marquette University is operated by the Jesuit Order, which has notorious ties to the CIA." (Per Jack) The fact that Marquette owns the McAdams domain makes the Jesuits very suspect to me.

Oh gads yes. A very successful cult. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html "1943-Donovan recruits Catholic Church in Rome to be center of Anglo-American spy operations in Fascist Italy. It becomes one of America’s most enduring spy alliances in the Cold War." I don't know if it's true, but given that the source is Steve Kangas (murdered by Richard Mellon Scaife) I consider it extremely credible.

link I don't think there's a better person in gov't than Dennis Kucinich. Not that it's a highly competitive field. But of the few good ones, he's at the top.

Ah, that's significant. Thanks Dawn. I haven't seem much of TMWKK, but I believe it pointed various fingers at his main man LBJ.

What is the source for this meeting between DeM & the military? Do we know at whose initiative the meeting was held? Do we know when DeM and the military began their relationship? I found Edward Epstein's answers on his website. DeM told Epstein, shortly before DeM came to a premature death, that he had been contacted by J. Walton Moore of CIA's Domestic Contacts to keep an eye on an American defector returning from Russia. DeM had a longstanding relationship with Moore in his CIA capacity, and he developed a friendship with Oswald based on their mutual connection with the City of Minsk. DeM told Epstein that he believed Lee had fired at Walker, that he had shown Moore one of the Neely "Backyard Photos," and that he told Moore everything he knew or suspected about the Walker shooting. Shortly after he reported to Moore on the Walker shooting, DeM was awarded the contract he wanted with Papa Doc's government, and he left for Haiti. Is it just TOO coincidental that DeM was expecting CIA help in Haiti in return for his Oswald debriefings, and his contract came through shortly after he provided CIA with this scintillating portrait of a wannabe assassin? If DeM's story is true, he must have lived under incredible stress after the assassination. ... Do you say that because you believe DeM did not know Lee was being patsy dipped J. Ray?

Thanks John. Sounds like a good resource. Myra, there are some who suspect that the Walker incident was designed for two purposes. 1) to get positive publicity for Walker; 2) to give Oswald the bona fides to get into Cuba. As far as Oswald telling Marina he fired the shot... I often wonder about Oswald's relationship with his wife and suspect he never trusted her. If he was CIA, as some suspect, he may have been playing his own wife. He may have thought by telling her she would get word to the Paines or to others he suspected of leftist sympathies. He may have hoped this would open some doors for him when he tried to get into Cuba. There is a lot about Oswald, Marina, the Paines and the De Mohrenschildts that remains a mystery. I mean, how odd is it that the Walker incident occurred only days before De Mohrenschildt met with the U.S. military and encouraged the overthrow of his employer, Haitian dictator Papa Doc Duvallier? Yeah Pat, I lean towards your point of view on the Walker episode, and on his relationship to Marina. I think they flat out disliked each other. And if Lee was actually planning on going to Cuba, and it appears he believed that's what he was doing, then wasn't he abandoning his wife? Interesting info you provide about the timing of the Walker incident in relation to DeM...'s Haiti mission. I need to know much more about DeM. Guess I have to read all of Fonzi's book. I've read some. Anyone recommend other good books (aside from the one DeM... himself wrote, which is online) about DeM?

Jim, Maybe she's never backed away from her Walker testimony, but she's sprinted away from her testimony about Oswald. As another mentioned in this thread, she testified out of fear of being deported. And as Mark Lane pointed out in Rush to Judgement she was isolated and programmed and harassed by FBI agents until they got what they wanted out of her. Her 1996 interview with Oprah made it very clear that she knew she was used and manipulated into her WC testimony, and believed (as of 1996) that Lee had nothing to do with the President's murder. Therefore, I don't see any reason to believe any Walker related testimony she made either, while under extreme duress. I didn't know about a letter from Lee to her though. That's interesting and I'd like to see it. I really don't think they much liked each other. Thanks for the pointer.

Thanks John. Sounds like a good resource.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/...roke/index.html "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Jack Valenti, who served as president of the Motion Picture Association of America for nearly four decades, has suffered a stroke and has been taken to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, officials said. Valenti, 85, suffered the stroke "recently," said a woman at the Motion Picture Association of America, which he led for 38 years. ... In 1952, he co-founded Weekley & Valenti, an advertising agency. Valenti's agency handled the press during the November 22, 1963, visit of President Kennedy and Vice President Lyndon Johnson to Dallas. Valenti was in the motorcade six cars behind the president's when Kennedy was assassinated. Less than an hour later, Johnson had hired Valenti as special assistant to the president and the two men were flying to Washington aboard Air Force One. ..." So how much does anyone know about this guy who was right at the crime scene to handle Johnson's PRopaganda? Is it odd that he would be in a presidential motorcade that day? How did he come to be in the motorcade? As Johnson's special guest?

Okey dokey. So about that Walker episode... Was it publicized a lot to help incriminate the patsy but I'm not aware of it? Seems like the propagandists would want maximum mileage out of the incident; why bother to set it up otherwise? Anyone have an opinion? I mean, about the Walker episode--the subject of this thread. Edited quote of Charles Drago. (Langauge). Antti Hynonen

Irresponsible? Sure. A bad idea? I've heard worse. My thoughts exactly. Thanks for the movie review Pat. Are there more references lately to the JFK conspiracy in movies and TV shows (like the one I posted recently from the TV show Numbers)? Or am I just noticing them now since I'm newly aware of the JFK conspiracy itself?