David S. Brownlee

Not true...later, small portions go in all directions...but larger portions of matter which are blown off at impact..go in the direction of the force that is the primary mover. This is getting beyond silly - shoot a watermellon (which we do often for fun) - almost ALL of the debris goes in exactly the direction of the incoming bullet that hit it. It's simple physics. ...and it doesn't matter what happens after impact - all the stuff is already blown in the direction that the bullet was going. Honestly...I would be willing to put a spotless handkerchief down in front of a ripe pumpkin or watermellon (two feet in front) and bet $50 that after I shot the mellon with my SKS there would be no spots on the handkerchief (and fifty dollars is real money to me).

Films can be altered (somewhat)....what cannot be altered is the fact that Jackie chased a large(ish) portion of JFK's head - back and to the left. People in dire straights do not do the opposite of what is rational. In my experience, one sees very clearly (like in slow motion) in those situations and they react appropriately.

Jackie chased a piece of JFK's head over the back/left part of the car. Shots from the rear do not propel large fragments in the opposite direction...the man's head was not moving at impact...any fragments would be gone - past the influence of any "head jerks" or spinal column reactions. The vast majority of debris from an impact like that goes the same direction that the bullet was going. You can add to that - that the car was actually going forward (or maybe almost stopped but definitely slowing) at the point of impact. Any forward (and slowing) momentum would actually (slightly) push the debris from impact forward - yet it did as expected and went back and to the left - from a close shot with a high powered rifle from the Grassy Knoll. I can't believe we are even discussing this.

Oh Please...and Santa Clause comes down from the moon every 25th of December and gives out chocolate eggs. Any fool can tell that it was an instantanious motion...back and to the left...caused by a shot from the right that didn't hit dead center but got enough of the right side of the head to blow out enough brain to be fatal. If the shooter had missed "dead center" to the left (of Kennedy) he would have gone the other way and been hanging over the side of the car. Simple physics and ballistics. If the shot would have been from the other direction (6th floor SBD) - Jackie would have been trying to climb over Mrs. Connally to get back a piece of JFK's head instead of going back and to the left. Please stop boring me with made up junk....shoot a few guns an you (should) be able to understand...unless your mind is made up so tight that facts do not matter to you.

Save your money on Huntsman...he's a Mormon too. What you Aussies need to know before you go betting your money is the concern that Midwesterners (as well as some Southerners) have about Mormons. You should realize...that the only time actual murder has been sactioned by a standing State Governor was when the Governor of Missouri made a proclamation that it was OK to kill Mormons. And it was a fairly popular proclaimation. (it worked - it got em the hell out of Missouri)

You may be just a little bit Pamela...you have to realize that when the news of JFK's assasination came onto the airwaves there were young men at Texas A&M, Bama and Ole Miss (students) honking their horns and celebrating. U.T.-Austin not so much but I'm sure there were a few. These "subtle" messages are designed to get through to certain portions of the population.

Agree with the first part - but not the last. The U.S. is not in financial ruin. I still take my little strips of paper with presidents pictures on them and buy steaks at the Krogers. Although gas is a bit high - I still fill up my Buick and drive wherever I want to. While I don't like the fact that the ole U.S.A. has spent itself into a $14 trillion dollar hole - I do realize that taking control of $14 trillion dollars+ worth of known oil assets from Iraq has helped to maintain the strength of the dollar on world markets. Taking control of Libya's oil assets is a nice quid-pro-quo for the Europeans too. I'm not happy about stealing other country's resources - but hey - we invented the cars - it's not our fault that the dang oil is under the sand over there. What the heck...we spent all this money on aircraft carriers and military might - we may as well use it for something eh?

Sorry I didn't multi-quote. IMO the back/throat shot was an excellent shot from a decent quality marksman who just didn't get a couple things right. When firing downhill most shooters think that the bullet will not drop as far going downhill - they tend to think that the "downhill" takes care of the drop - which isn't true - gravity still works. Most hunters who go to a place like Colorado and have to take uphill and downhill shots tend to miss high uphill, and low downhill. It's because they seem to think that shooting uphill somehow increases gravity and bullet drop, and shooting downhill neutralizes it. Of course this is not the case and experienced mountain hunters shoot very close to what they would a level shot at ranges up to 200 yards...meaning they allow for about the same bullet drop. The other thing is the left turn of the vehicle - that would likely make a decent (but not quite expert) shooter miss a couple inches to the right. So really - if a shooter put the crosshairs right on the spot he wanted to hit in that particular situation - even with a better rifle than a Carcano - it is totally predictable that the shooter would miss a few inches low and a couple inches to the right.

Exactly...what we have to remember is - this is not a case of a military sniper trying to take out targets to help win a war. In that case an expert sniper can take a shot from 500 yards and if he misses (or wounds) due to a wind gust or whatever he can start all over again the next day. The war will still be there. Presidents? Not so much.

Good logic. The thing is - if Oswald was the lone shooter and wanted to get away - why was he not out of town instead of milling around on his own turf and then hiding in a Movie Theatre? I will give him credit for getting away from the scene of the crime - but wouldn't you want some form of transportation to get you WAY away from the search? A simple cheap used motorcycle could have done that... ...and if you weren't really worried about getting away...why not take the easy shot....conundrum

Yep...let's just hope that they don't cloud it all up and then follow along with a story about whether Bigfoot is real. It has always been my opinion that the reason that RFK was killed by a contact wound behind the ear was that they realized how close they came to failing on the JFK deal. If the neck shot (first hit) would have actually hit his spinal cord the impact would have likely knocked him forward (paralyzed from the shoulders down) into the floor of the car. If Jackie had somehow had a spur-of-the-second realization and pulled him into her lap he also would have survived. That is - depending on what the other contigency plans were. (when your driver sets you up for a kill shot it is unlikely that you are going to survive - they likely had help in the hospital too).

Holy God...Now I remember why I stopped coming here. As an ametuer it is silly trying to read all this stuff. Can we say anal?

Thanks Bernice...that is an angle I hadn't seen before. Still, the shot that likely went through JFK's neck was a shot from behind (TSBD or DALTEX). Having shot rifles in Colorado on inclines and declines I learned that a high powered bullet doesn't drop as much as you would expect just because it's going up hill...and...it still drops when going downhill (unless you are shooting straight down into some sort of cavern). Still...even very good shooters who have been trained on the flats have a tendency to think a bullet will drop less going downhill. That's why a friend of mine missed a trophy Elk from long range going downhill and hit dirt between his legs. Of course that was a 200 yard shot. The miss in this case was actually a VERY GOOD shot if you take out the drop...right on line with the head but not fatal since the bullet dropped into the neck area. It was online to blow out the back of the head but due to the drop and the slight left turn it missed just a bit - missed the head due to the drop and missed the spine due to the mild left turn which caused it to hit an inch or so to the right - and by the angle enter a bit to the right - miss the spinal cord - and come out through the throat. Obviously a shot of this skill (although a miss as far as fatality) wasn't performed by a Manlicher/Carcano...it was likely from a .257 Weatherby. I would expect a .257 Weatherby because of the ability to shoot through wind. I would guess the 30 yard shot from the grassy knoll was with the same gun - or maybe a .240 Weatherby. They had the highest muzzle velocity at that time...(flattest shooting guns) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Long range rifles are chambered for an assortment of popular cartridges. The .270 Winchester shooting a 130 grain bullet has long been the standard of comparison for long range rifle cartridges. A .270 with this weight bullet is nearly ideal as a general purpose long range rifle. But the .243 Winchester with 95 grain bullets, 6mm Remington with 95-100 grain bullets, .25-06 with 100 grain bullets, 6.5mm Rem. Mag. with 120 grain bullets, 6.5x68 with 140 grain bullets, .270 WSM with 140-150 grain bullets, 7x64 with 140 grain bullets, .280 Remington with 140 grain bullets, 7mm Rem. SAUM and 7mm Rem. Mag. with 150 grain bullets, .300 Rem. SAUM with 165 grain bullets, .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. with 165-180 grain bullets, .300 Wby. Mag. with 200 grain bullets, .300 Ultra Mag. with 200 grain bullets, 8x68S with 170 grain bullets, and 8mm Rem. Mag. with 170-180 grain bullets all have a similar trajectory (assuming bullets with similar ballistic coefficients). These cartridges and loads all offer muzzle velocities of 3000 fps to about 3150 fps. There are other cartridges and loads that have similar trajectories, but those named above are representative of typical long range hunting cartridges. These cartridges have a trajectory flat enough to allow a point blank range (where the bullet neither rises nor falls more than 3" above or below the line of sight) extending from the muzzle to somewhere around 296-306 yards. Zero a scoped rifle so that the bullet hits about 2.5 high at 100 yards and it will strike about 3" high at 150 yards, roughly 2.3" high at 200 yards, and about 3" low at 300 yards. This will allow solid hits without "holding over" on medium size big game animals (like most North American deer) out to approximately 300 yards or a little farther.

I'm sure this has been gone over before many times - but I'm a relative newby. Taking in to consideration that the "head on" shot with the president coming right at you (as a lone assassin) prior to turning away from the TSBD and going away and downhill to the left...and dealing with a tree...why would you (as a lone assassin) not take the earlier shot? Any fool would take the earlier shot. It was easier (by far) and it would give a better second shot (if necessary) since at that semi-blocked in space the motorcade would still be coming at the shooter. So obviously, the lone assassin would have set himself up for the oncoming shot - and something had to prevent that (scare him?) and get him to have to quickly regroup his senses to fire the three shots downrange at a president in a car moving away, on a slight curve, and going downhill. I think (if it were a single shooter - Oswald) that something had to take him away from his primary "shooting lane" and force him into plan B. With all the video footage and pictures there should be a clue as to what spooked Oswald off the best shot. Of course - I personally don't think there ever was an attempt to shoot at the pre-turn point when the target was approaching the 6th floor TSBD...the best shot for a LONE shooter...still, for those who believe in that - I would say - what caused Oswald to not make the easiest shot? There should be some sort of anomally in that segment of the motorcade trip that would cause the shooter to not take his easiest/best shot and instead shoot at a much harder - receding and turning a bit downhill target.

ROTFLMAO....

Let's think clearly about this a minute. "Bill: If Lee Oswald was a spy, as you seem to be suggesting...." If he wasn't a spy then why would he move from a classified position in the Marines (Navy Department) to Russia, then back to the old USA. Why let a simple enlisted man in the Marines go to Russia (USSR) and then also come back? Why do you hand out pro-Cuba leaflets (with a call #) in New Orleans? Well IMO it is to develop a list of pro-Castro-ites.

Morons miss (in general). Professionals are usually successful. That's not to say they always are - just generally.

It was in Dallas, Texas. The folks who got the best advantages by the killing were in Texas. The new President was from Texas...Occam's Razor.

The Oswald shot from Ruby has always bothered me. JFK got it in the head and RFK got it in the head....but Oswald got it in the belly (or thereabouts) and was shot by a fairly pedestrian revolver (a .38). He was also shot within a couple miles from a hospital. Basically a gutshot will kill you (without surgery) in anywhere between some hours and a few days (depending on which blood vessels are hit) without surgery. A liver shot can be terminal in a few hours but LHO was obviously shot in the right side and turned that way..so a liver shot is out of the question...so he was basically gutshot middle-right..with a fairly small calibre revolver....one time.

Nothing against anybody's ideas about the shooter and the other stuff....personally, I think it was a .240 Weatherby that did the deed. It was the flattest shooting gun at the time (3300 muzzle velocity on a 100 grain bullet).

I would guess Oswald was involved - but not very close to the real workings of the hit. Oswald was passing out pro-cuba leaflets on the street in New Orleans. This was obviously an attempt to xxxxx for US communists (and a pretty lame one at that). Oswald was no liberal...he was in the game with the CIA. No regular Marine from nowhere gets language training - gets a TS clearance to work in his "job" - defects to (then) USSR...comes back..and then simply shows up at the Texas School Book Depository on the day of the assassination. Oswald was the "patsy" but things didn't go to plan. IMHO if all would have worked out Oswald would have been killed earlier. It's the same with the JFK hit. They wanted it to be a "one shot deal" but that didn't work either. To their credit (as much as you can give murderers credit)...they did have a backup plan. If it was a "one shot deal" the assassin would have shot P-K while the motorcade approached the TSBD...not as it was driving away down a hill and turning. This (IMHO) is why Bobby Kennedy was killed by a contact wound behind the ear.....lessons learned....reduce variables.

Agreed JD - ''Let them see what they have done''....and later she said "they are killing Kennedys" in this country - just prior to leaving and after the RFK assasination. Quote from the Salina Journal (Kansas) from NYT (Raymond Anderson) (Moscow - c) "Barbarians" Russia Shouts! What a frightening country Muscovites exclaimed Wednesday when they learned of the shooting of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. "Barbarians!" shouted a young Russian intellectual when the first report was broadcast. "All you Americans can do is shoot one another" said a middle aged woman who works in the downtown Moscow office. For many Russians the killing of (RFK) seemed to confirm the widespread impression of the United States as a land of deep internal hostilities, violence, and sinister political intrigues. Muscovites approached in the streets and parks expressed a belief that the shooting of Senator Kennedy was another development of a broad rightwing political conspiracy that, in their view, was also behind the assasination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. "Someone does not want Senator Kennedy to carry on the policies of his brother" said a 40 year old man from Leningrad. Most Russians are convinced that the murder of (JFK) was a result of a rightwing conspiracy. They scorn the Warren Commission findings that (he) was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald,...a simple left wing malcontent... President Kennedy was admired in the Soviet Union, particularly in the last months of his life following the American University speech in the summer of 1963 urging friendly relations between the US and the Soviet Union. Many Russians cried when they learned of his assasination...................." © NYT

Well it's pretty hard to argue with you dude...if you don't understand what the point is (see recent history)...and you don't understand that the killing shot on JFK was from the right front - and you don't understand that the killing shot on RFK was a contact shot from just behind the right earlobe ( a shooting point that S/S could have never been - and you don't understand that the kill shot on MLK was supposedly from a ground floor bathroom stall - while MLK was actually on a second floor balconey and every person around him was pointing upwards... Well then I guess you don't understand the point - or much of anything.

I watched the "24 Hours after" show on the History Channel the other night (again) figuring I wouldn't get anything out of it...factually I didn't, but I took a different approach this time. I figured - what if Occam's razor is true in the JFK assasination. What if all the logical things were in fact reality. What if it really was a stone-cold hit engineered by texas oil (birchers) who hated Kennedy. What if the CIA was involved and coordinated it through the mafia to get the best shooter on the grassy knoll. What if there were coordinated efforts between the CIA/Mafia factions and the FBI. What if J. Edgar (a known Kennedy hater) had been in on it all along - maybe even been one of the engineers. What if J. Edgar (or others of his ilk) had a tap on the telephone to the Kennedy residence. What if the Kennedy's WERE arrogant and made fun of the Johnsons. What if Jaqueline laughed about "Lady Bird" and thought her a hick. What if JFK/RFK said bad things about LBJ and it was a real possibilty that he might be left off the ticket in 1964. It would be easy to see how LBJ would go along with a pre-set assaination...yet..there were so many clues that this was not only a killing - this was a "stick it up yer arse" killing. Jacqueline was brought to the swaering in on the plane - still in fully blooded clothing. LBJ called JFKs Mom and then after talking let Lady Bird talk to her (we're praying with you")...conversation cut short by the Mom of the murdered son. While I figure LBJ and Lady Bird knew all about this Dallas setup - I am curious about one thing. LBJ didn't want Conally in the car - he wanted Yarbrough - glitch...did Conally's wife actually have the guts to say to Jacky (or hate her that much) "well Mrs. Kennedy..you can't say Dallas doensn't love you now" - knowing that the shot from the grassy knoll was forthcoming...hard to say...but I've seen tape of southern women being as stern/mean as ever when it came to race relations in the south. Truth is - the undergraduates at "Ole Miss" University were blowing their horns and celebrating on the green that day. (documented fact).

Well the truth of the matter JF is that most folks have never shot a high powered rifle up or down hill. I have. I'm no serious expert but I have hunted Elk/Mule Deer in the Rockies with experts. The reverse of what you expect is whaty happens. If you are shooting downhill you will generally miss low. That's because you won't think you have to aim above much because the bullet is going downhill anyway. So an inexperienced downhill shooter will always miss low. Gravity still works on your bullet and will still pull it down. When shooting uphill an inexperienced shooter will generally miss high (again the reverse of what is expected) because you will expect the bullet to drop much faster. In reality the bullet drops about the same uphill or downhill (within a 1/4 at 100 yards with a high powered rifle). So why did JFK get hit in the throat? Well....he got hit in the throat from an expert assasin who wasn't used to shooting downhill. The assasin thought that since he was shooting downhill already that the bullet wouldn't drop (1st mistake)..then he didn't realize properly that the JFK car was actually turning back to the left a bit - #2 mistake. So.....a perfect shot from a killer from the TSBD (6th floor or roof) would likely miss about 2-3 inches low and about an inch to the right. Of course that is exactly what happened. Three inches low took the brain out of the equasion and the miss right made the bullet miss the spinal cord and just went through the throat. Now getting shot through the throat with a high powered rifle is no nice thing...you are gonna gag and try to spit and have trouble breathing...but it won't kill you if you have proper medical help within minutes....or even 20 minutes. But if your car slows down and gives em a shot from close up (grasssy knoll) and blows your brains back across the car - well.....then you are dead.