David S. Brownlee

I realize this stuff is old news to you folks...but as far as anyboby still going with the LN theory: 1. Why would a lone assassin pick a target going away from him/her and bending to the left and a bit downhill over a target coming straight at the TSBD on (edit) Houston? 2. Why would John Conally say "they're gonna kill us all" instead of "Oh my Gosh...I've been shot" 3. Why would LHO say he was a "patsy" instead of saying "I'm innocent" or "you have the wrong man". 4. Why would anybody involved in organized crime (Ruby) get involved in something that had no dollar value to him?. Let's say there were only two shooters posts - 1. TSBD 6th floor.....2. Grassy Knoll....why even bother with the TSBD when you are shooting downhill and 2/3rds of a football field away and over a tree. The Grassy Knoll spot was MUCH closer. Any reasonably intelligent "Lone Nut" would pick the Grassy Knoll or shoot Kennedy on Houston when the motorcade was coming right at him. Much easier shot. Why did the first shot hit Kennedy in the upper musculature of his right back and go through his throat? Well that's easy for anybody who has shot a rifle. Actually it was a heckuva shot. The shooter was nearly "on target" but the car was turning left...so he/she missed an inch or so right. The shooter under estimated "bullet drop" even for something like a 30.06. I've seen this sort of thing many times hunting deer in the mountains. So actually the TSBD shooter was probably an expert...may or may not have been LHO.

I'm a fairly simple guy. I shoot guns for fun. Were I ever have to shoot at a target I would want it STOPPED. If that couldn't be done I would much prefer a target coming dead at me. 0ne shot two shots - no worries about the other people getting hurt...I sure wouldn't wait until I had to deal with a tree...then pop off three shots at a target going downhill and sideways.

Puleeeeeze...I got you and you know it. Nobody - an assassin - shoots through a phookin tree. Common sense. re-read your last post and I apologize for a bit of my answer. I took it differently initially. My fault.

Very good - IMHO. ...very good.

OK so how exactly did the bullet that caused the injury to the guy down at the overpass work? It couldn't of come apart going through the tree because that would mean a bullet going through similar physics would have come apart piercing JFK and Connally. Changing direction by about 15 or 20 degrees (from a downward shot to an upward trajectory) would have taken off a lot of speed - a LOT - from a medium HP bullet in the first place.. What would have happened?...a whole bunch - and it would likely have turned said bullet into a tumbling piece of 1000 fps (or less) shrapnel. There wasn't any "change-of-direction" bullet after hitting a tree...that an experienced shooter wouldn't have shot through in the first place. .............. It was straight from Dal=Tex. trust me. that bullet simply glided over JFK's head because there is a slow elevation change at that point on Dealy Plaza. It goes down hill.

Having been shot (and had to do a hospital stay for that) and also been in the miltary and have roomed with docs - I would unequivically say that the doctors know one thing -they look at the sight of injury. I was shot in the pelvis area (right side)...but they weren't very understanding about what i was telling them. As it turned out they were right - they found the entrance wound and the exit wound. I thought a bulet had gone off in my pocket - instead of my buddy accidentally shooting me

Very good thinking MV - IMO. I doubt that there is much available on this topic - would have been covered up - but anybody who has ever done a big puzzle knows that all pieces are important...even if you just get a piece of a piece.

OK - well how exactly did that work? That's the most senseless thing I have ever heard. was there a really strong oncoming gust of wind that slowed the bullet down a few thousand FPS? A good look at the Altgens photo will demonstrate the only obstacle which lay between the sixth floor window of the TSDB and the position/location of JFK, which could have had influence on the velocity of CE399. So...not being to the level that I can quickly access CE399 (Happy Thanksgiving by the way)...I suppose it was a tree that handily influenced the velocity of that bullet. Or it was a part of a tree. A branch let's say, or a twig... let's not split hairs. OK : ...so we have a bullet that hit the curb down near the underpass which had the power to then blow up shrapnel (grains of concrete)l strong enough to break skin on a civillian...a straight muzzle to impact bullet IMO. ...a bullet impact (probably - and almost certainly) that was crowded around and was taken from the ground (grass/dirt) impact nearby on the away side from the grassy knoll by suits... ...a bullet that hit on the inside of the road - right side -(meaning closer to the TSBD and probably earlier) and made a multiple witness verified gouge on the road... ...then we have the four bullets that actually did damage...and who knows how many others that may have just flown by and hit elsewhere. IMO and IM-guess there were likely many shots in Dealy that day... One or two from Dal-Tex, two from the roof or closest side of the 6th floor of the TSBD (none from the "sniper's perch"), one or two from the roof of the jail (behind, high, and left of the limo)...and one or two from the fence (Grassy Knoll) - one of which was the kill shot ...last...when they slowed down the limo (cause even the best shooter probably missed the first moving shot). The slowing down of the Limo was key IMO - it allowed for an expert shooter to hit from close range... ...and possibly there were a few more earlier shots that simply missed and can't be accounted for due to lack of interest by the "investigators". I wonder if there was a backup plan at the Trade-Mart?

OK - well how exactly did that work? That's the most senseless thing I have ever heard. was there a really strong oncoming gust of wind that slowed the bullet down a few thousand FPS?

Good point - neither am I (but..of course...I don't have an agenda).

How many people were under the tree that the "ricochet" wood shrapnel would have hit? Who was under the tree? (and forward a bit) Were there any comments or wounds? I don't mean to be a pain - but bullets of (at least medium size) don't hit trees and then change trajectories around 40 degrees in angle without leaving something behind. The energy transfer would have left wood splinters which would have impacted all folks under the tree. People would have been coming forth with stuff like - look at my hat!?! It has a piece of wood in it and I felt it hitting me.

The others don't seem to be in the right place.

OK T.H.P....I apologize for being a bit of a pain earlier on this thread. You make decent (although somewhat "miraculous") points. The MLCC jacketed bullet was not the same as a modern combat round - and the jacketing was likley thicker - therefore allowing it to stay relatively intact even when going through more than flesh. IMO the lead inside would still outrun the jacket if it had to go through enough tree to bend it's trajectory upwards and outwards around 40 degrees, but I can't shoot a MLCC so I can't prove that. Obviously I've never shot a 6.5 MLCC....my experience is more with true high powers (7mm Mag - .270 W)...as far as medium powers we have all shot 30-30s...though they are even less powerful as far as muzzle velocity..than the MLCC. In my experience (without looking anything up)...the following is a pretty decent ballistics breakdown of popular calibres that have been in production since the early 1960's (and most well before): 7mm Mag. - muzzle velocity 3000 fps+ depending on bullet weight .270 W (my fav round) - nearly the same...2850 or so but hitting 3000 fps with a lighter bullet. 30.06 - 2800 with a 150 grain bullet .240 (British) Weatherby - a rocket ship...3400 plus fps at the muzzle .257 Weatherby - also a rocket ship with heavier bullet...3000+ SKS or AK-47 - 2400 fps out of the muzzle with a 125 grain bullet MLCC - 2200 to 2450 fps. 30-30 - 1250 to 1600 depending on bullet weight. ...below that (mostly .22) - around 1200 fps at the muzzle. OK so it's plain that bullet velocity versus weight versus how that bullet can get enough of a ricochet is key. Can it change direction around 40 degrees and go over and bust out a piece of concrete - part of that concrete of which will have the force to penetrate a bystanders's facial skin? A small calibre bullet changes direction easier than a big one - it still loses velocity - but it could change direction off of a tree limb - maybe penetrating only a few mms. A larger high velocity round would have to hit something very serious and would seriously penetrate before being bounced off at such an angle - likely a 6+ inch branch or a tree trunk. It would require that kind of inertia from the tree to thrust it in the other direction. That penetration would bust the bullet up pretty bad and shatter the tree limb - it (the tree limb) would either drop on it's own or be hanging - either way - fast moving wood shrapnel would rain down upon anyone underneath. A medium high powered round like the MLCC would have two possibilities (IMO) in the realm of physics/ballistics. It could either bust up on impact and become a low velocity tumbler bullet which couldn't possibly do much of anything - or it could power through and keep relatively decent speed (maybe down 1000 fps which would make it the equivallent of a heavy .22). If the latter were the case it would also rain down wooden splinters on all below the impact...and not a light dusting...those splinters would have the transferred force to also break skin. ...and of course the velocity would then be so reduced that it really couldn't take out a chunk of concrete and spray up debris with enough power to hurt a bystander with a bit of that debris. So the possibility of a ricochet from the MLCC causing the injury to the bystander (who just happened to be directly in the line of fire from the Dal-Tex building) is beyond miniscule....see Occam's Razor....TKS

Well actually...I still believe I'm right - but as a new guy it isn't worth it. you tell me how a jacketed bullet goes through 2-3 inches of tree and stays intact and changes direction and still can hit concrete and throw up shrapnel that would........ooops, I'm not arguing anymore...sorry. +++++++++++++++++ not applicable to my argument - but interesting: "Simply put, no bullet has ever done the same amount of damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged in the same condition as CE 399. In the commission's own wound ballistics tests, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding suffered more visible damage than CE 399, and bullets that were fired into animal chests emerged clearly more damaged than CE 399. The 1992 All-American Television wound ballistics test directed by Dr. Cyril Wecht likewise contradicted the single-bullet theory. In this test a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet was fired into two gelatin blocks. The second block contained animal bones to simulate the shattering of a rib bone and the smashing of a wrist bone. The bullet transited the first gelatin block and penetrated deep into the second block. It emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399."

actually...a musical could be carried off the same way...if the star was good enough...and the script was tightly written to minimize big show-time songs...keeping it small. It would require a real singer...someboby who could really belt it out...like a young Striesand - who could impress. Somebody really good.

Possibly because you discuss "musicals"...very hard to produce. Drama/comedys are much easier. Musicals are big-time extravaganzas. To do them right they need a lot of real participation by real talented people. ++++++++++++++ a drama - or comedy - can be carried by a single quality actor.

Bingo...that's it.

that Vietnam was a good idea too that was foiled by unpatriotic treasonous critics...? Vietnam was short of oil

Seems odd doesn't it...can't do that with just the Dallas police.

Thanks for that tidbit (for me) Robin. Being from Southern Illinois (near Anna Jonesboro), it is something I'll remember and wouldn't have otherwise known.

Mrs. Connally's body movement is key (IMO), since she wasn't hit and even holding on to the Mr., wouldn't have forced her forward in such a coordinated movement (if she were forced forward due to a bullet impact on her husband she would have twisted in her seat). Her whole body moves forward. The result of breaking. What that means - ?? - but it gives credence to the eyewitnesses who state that the limo slowed to a stop or near stop. Thanks for the footage.

Nice talk...have you ever even seen a spent bullet? I have. Slight "flattening my arse" the jacket/casing would have come totally apart. Did you pay attention to the Washington DC sniper case? The reason for the terrible damage to the victims was due to the fragmentation of the jacketed bullets as they passed through flesh - yes flesh - not a 2" piece of wood - flesh. This is documented. Fragmentation. You can write all you want - but this is pretty simple. If a jacketed bullet comes apart going through flesh - it will be totally shredded going through solid wood. Simple physics my man. and as far as the Smurf comment GFYS...(from one VFW member to another - if you are one).

Well Evan...I feel it too...I'm a Fed that hates corruption. This thing is gonna get turned around. People like Webb in the Senate understand...and the dude from Montana...it's gonna get fixed...I really think it is. But it's gonna get bloody. ++++++++++++++++++++ GO NANCY !!!!

doesn't make sense.