Ed LeDoux
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https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1781040/
Oak Cliff bad boy from the age of 8 Johnnie Robert Jenkins was in trouble for stealing copper wire.
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc954943/m1/1/
He stabbed a ex boxer Roy Raines in Oct. '63 while robbing him leaving him for dead,, then robs and rapes a woman in Nov. 63
The topper,
He escapes during the Jack Ruby trial!!!
News, Sunday, October 20, 1963 Section: 1 p. 19
A sheriff's department fingrprint expert Saturday identified the body of a man found in the Trinity River Thursday as that of Roy Raines, 66, of 532 Griffith in Oak Cliff, an apparent murder victim.
Sheriff bill Decker said the victim's wife showed up at the sheriff's office to inquire about her husband shortly after the identify was established.
The medical examiner's findings indicated that Raines, a former Ling-Temco-Vought employe, died of a stab wound in the lower part of the back.
Decker said the size of the wound led him to believe the weapon was an ordinary pocket knife.
Fire department skin divers recovered the body, clothed only in undershirt an shorts, from shallow waters, near the Hampton Viaduct after a motorist spotted it.
Mrs. Raines told investigators she last saw her husband a week ago. She said she want to Mineola and returned last Monday to find him missing
Decker said Mrs. Raines did not file a missing person's report, but conducted a search of her own. Raines had only a small sum of money, $30 to $40, in his possession when she last him and wore no jewelry, she told Decker.
Dallas (TX) Morning News, Friday, March 20, 1964, Section: 4, p. 1
Sheriff Bill Decker filed murder, rape and robbery charges Thursday against a 32-year-old ex-convict who participated in the March 6 jailbreak here.
Deck filed the murder charge after the ex-convict, Johnnie Robert Jenkins of 3323 Bataan, admitted the fatal stabbing of Roy Raines.
Jenkins said he plunged a "single blade Deep Elm special" pocket knife into the 67-year-old victim during a $9 robbery Oct. 12.
Firemen pulled Raines' body from the Trinity River after it was seen near the Hampton road viaduct. A medical examination of the body showed death resulted from a knife wound in the liver.
Jenkins admitted also that he raped a 37-year old woman near the Sylvan Avenue viaduct Nov. 16.....the ex-convict said he met Raines in a bar at Main and Exposition and, after they had drunk together, drove his victim to the banks of the Trinity.
There, Jenkins continued, he took $9 from the victim and ordered him to strip.
"I thought he had more money in his clothes and I wanted to check them," Jenkins explained.
The ex-convict said Raines swung at him and he jabbed his knife blade into Raines' side below the right rib cage.
"I don't like for people to shove me, " Jenkins told reporters, "When they do, I react."
Jenkins said that, when he drove away, Raines was clutching his wound and moaning. The ex-convict said Raines "must have fallen into the river" later.
Dallas (TX) Morning News, Friday, March 22, 1964, Section: 1, p. 12
A 32-year old ex-convict admits that he took a gold cross from an elderly robbery victim before stabbing him to death, Sheriff Bill Decker said Friday.
Decker has charged the ex-convict, Johnnie Robert Jenkins of 3323 Bataan in Oak Cliff with the Oct. 12 slaying of Roy Raines... the sheriff said Jenkins took Raines' suit and the tiny cross in addition to the cash....
Dallas (TX) Morning News, Friday, March 22, 1964, Section: 1, p. 12
Johnnie Robert Jenkins was assessed a life sentence for murder Thursday after he pleaded guilty to charges that he knifed a man while robbing him under the Hampton Street viaduct last October....Jenkins was one of seven prisoners who escaped from the Dallas county jail March 6 during the murder trial of Jack Ruby in Judge Brown's court.
The 32-year-old defendant already was under three life sentences and a 10-year sentence imposed by Judge brown Wednesday after he pleaded guilty to four other crimes.....THEN!!
In September 1984,
52 year old Johnny Robert Jenkins had escaped from the Texas prison system in March. Since then, he hid from the authorities by staying with family members in the Dallas area. However, that ended with a murder and fire at this Pleasant Grove home Monday.
00:00:43Fifty eight year old Walter Thompson was found beaten to death in her burned out home.
00:00:47Her surviving sister said five thousand dollars in cash and the car was stolen and that Jenkins had done it.
00:00:53I have a good case on the man, and that's all I can say right now. Investigator Bob Irby says the family will not be charged with harboring an escaped convict.
00:01:01These people are telling us that they thought he was on parole and did not know he was wanted as an escapee. In the meantime, Jenkins remains in the loose there in jail until a court can decide if he is to be sent back to the Texas Department of Corrections or stay here until his trial comes up.
00:01:15No bond has been set and the money reported missing has not been recovered.https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1309788/m1/
https://digital.library.unt.edu/search/?q5="Jenkins%2C Johnny"&t5=str_subject&searchType=advanced
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Just to put the Honk in perspective...
There is a interview with Earlene Roberts that she specified the Honk is what made her look outside, this though was AFTER Mr. Lee had exited.
The Honk caused her to look out the window and that is when she saw Mr. Lee waiting at the bus stop, and noticed a car with numbers on it out front of the house.
I'm guessing I need to post it again...
Cheers
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Here is Grover Lewis on Oak Cliff bad boys:
"AT THE AGE OF SEVENTEEN IN 1926 Clyde Barrow worked briefly as an usher at dallas’ palace theater but soon quit over the paltry $12-a-week salary. Twenty-five years later, I started work as an usher at the Texas Theater for $19 a week—a pittance but enough to see me through high school. The experience jerked some complex knots in and out of my young life, and I finished growing up very quickly.
In the early fifties, The Texas was the principal seat of allowable public pleasure in Oak Cliff—a spit-and-polish place where Daddy took Mama to the show on Sundays. Already twenty years old by then, it was well kept up, not even close to being run-down. But as Jefferson withered, the once-venerable movie house started falling to pieces too. In 1989, to avert demolition, the nonprofit Texas Theater Historical Society (TTHS) with aid from the Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce, bought the old landmark, pledging its restoration and development as a cultural arts center. To meet the $3.000 monthly mortgage, TTHS volunteers—many of them teenagers from the area—reopened the theater as a $2 rerun venue. (This past February the TTHS board filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.)
On a late weekday afternoon before the evening show, Maxine Burroughs, the matronly manager, showed me around. She was a veteran Texas employee, along with her husband, the doorman who had been on duty when Oswald was apprehended. “Butch and I got involved,” she explained, “because there’s no place left in Oak Cliff for families and kids to go.
The lobby looked frayed, sad, smaller than I remembered. We mounted the foyer stairs, passing a mawkish amateur mural of JFK, and climbed to the balcony. “Were you here when the stars still worked?” she asked, pointing to the mud-colored ceiling. “I’ve only seen pictures of it-little planets and clouds outlined in electric lights. The architects said everything’s still up there, just stuccoed over.”
I wandered along the center aisle, glancing by reflex toward the last rows in front of the protection booth where the riffraff of Oak Cliff’s hillbilly gene pool had traditionally gathered—the dreaded “balcony rats.” In a watery light, I found my old spot by the A stairwell. While I was still a green hand, but a tall one, I was stationed there to keep a lid on the general anarchy. After a couple of grueling break-in shifts, less terrified of the badasses than worried about failing, I bought an oversized flashlight that suggested a club. The bluff worked pretty well for a year, until a beered-up lummox from West Dallas flung himself at me over four rows of seats, and I did the first thing that Matthew or Spook would’ve done— bobbed him on the ear. The injured party ran bellowing to the lobby, alerting the manager, who had him hauled off for drunk. As a sort of reward for “cutting it,” I was transferred downstairs to the candy case, a choice job compared with standing aisle."Some things never change and the balcony rats were there November 22nd.
Sneaking in was a favorite pastime as was carrying pistols.
Gayla Brooks sets the stage for the late fifties Street toughs, gangs and bad boys
"Born five years apart in different North Texas small towns, Benny “The Cowboy” Binion and Herbert “The Cat” Noble both ended up in Dallas during the 1920s boom, when East Texas oil money was pouring in and before the law was willing to challenge many of the significant vice industries thriving around the city. Both men were heavily into the local gambling machine, with Binion’s headquarters anchored in the Southland Hotel Downtown and Noble’s at his Airmen’s Club venue in Oak Lawn (although Noble was an established Oak Cliff resident). The two men prospered, grew their various “enterprises,” along with all the underpinnings, and enjoyed what most would describe as a free rein in the North Texas underworld market. But as the saying goes, there is no honor among thieves.
Binion, with his many “friendships” among North Texas law enforcement personnel, provided protection for the other gambling bosses — for a 25 percent interest in their profits. But when The Cowboy (nicknamed that because of his acrobatic shooting style) realized that Noble’s business was beginning to match his, Binion upped the fee for protection. Noble refused to pay.
The feud that ensued, along with the 1938 murder of another gambling racket competitor (and Kessler Parkway resident), Sam Murray, on the streets of Downtown Dallas — planned by Binion but carried out by one of his associates, Ivy Miller — started what became known as the Texas Gambling War. It lasted 20 years, and it got messy.
According to Gary Sleeper’s book, “I’ll Do My Own Damn Killin’: Benny Binion, Herbert Noble, and the Texas Gambling War,” the racketeer murders became so frequent that both Dallas and Fort Worth police departments came to accept the situation. Dead bodies were found in quicklime pools at Lake Worth, acid vats in East Texas and everywhere in between. It was a nasty business run by nasty people.
As a carrier for the Dallas Times Herald from 1940 to 1942, Adamson High School alumnus Don Coke had a route that included the west side of Beckley, home of a domino parlor just south of Jefferson and the “entertainment emporium” directly across the street. “These were well known hangouts for Noble and other shady characters,” Coke says. “My folks cautioned me to always go by to collect in daylight hours and never linger after getting my money.”
But things began to change in 1946, when Henry Wade was elected as the new district attorney for Dallas County and promised to crack down on crime in Big D.
Binion, known by most as the “boss gambler,” quickly moved his main operation to Las Vegas, where he had already begun buying property, and opened his famous (and also infamous) Binion’s Horseshoe Casino. Although Binion had physically left town, his fingers remained all over Dallas, Fort Worth and West Texas gambling operations. And he had no intention of letting Noble expand or take over.
Well-known hit man Lois (pronounced “Loyce”) Green — possibly the most ruthless and cruel man of his ilk — often worked for Binion and was almost certainly responsible for several of the at least 11 attempts on Noble’s life. Surprisingly, after most of these attempts, no matter where he was in North Texas, Noble hightailed it back to Methodist Hospital in Oak Cliff for treatment. During one hospitalization, a hit man actually fired rifle shots through Noble’s hospital room window on Methodist’s fourth floor.
On the morning of Nov. 29, 1949, Noble’s wife, Mildred, walked out of the family home at 311 Conrad in Beckleywood and stepped into the car that her husband normally drove. (Herbert Noble had earlier taken his wife’s car.) Starting the engine, Mildred Noble met her end when a car bomb exploded, killing her instantly and distributing body parts around the neighborhood.
Overcome with grief, Noble reportedly buried Mildred in a $15,000 (in 1949 money), two-ton, solid copper casket, said to have been the most expensive in Dallas County to that date. Those who knew him said he never adjusted to her loss.
In Las Vegas at the time, and without today’s tracing capabilities, Binion escaped any prosecution on Mildred’s murder. But everyone in Dallas — and Nevada — recognized all the signs, believing that Lois Green almost certainly carried out the hit on Binion’s behalf. Thus, on Christmas Eve, in the rear parking lot of the Sky-Vue Club at 542 W. Commerce, Lois Green was blown away by a 12-gauge shotgun. His death certificate states that he was “shot by unknown assassin;” however, insiders understood that one of Noble’s hired guns most likely did the deed. At the time, Green lived at 1401 Walmsley in Oak Cliff.
According to Sleeper, the death of Isaac “Slim” Tomerlin, a Forty Thieves gang member, was another among those “believed to be motivated by greed, jealousy, and the power vacuum created by Lois Green’s death.”
“My next-door neighbor on Melba Street was a gunman for Benny Binion and was gunned down in his living room,” says another Adamson alumnus, Bob Johnston. “Of course we didn’t know what Slim’s ‘career’ was.” Tomerlin was DOA at Methodist Hospital on Jan. 13, 1951.
A licensed pilot who had a landing strip at his Flower Mound ranch, Noble actually planned an air raid on the Binion family’s Las Vegas home. Noble had one of his airplanes equipped with bombs and an aerial map of the targeted house. Fortunately for the Binions, a Dallas police investigator intervened.
The many lives of The Cat came to an end on Aug. 7, 1951, when he stopped his bulletproof car next to his ranch’s mailbox just before noon. Another brutal explosion took care of business, and all signposts again pointed to The Cowboy.
Binion eventually was nailed on tax evasion charges and agreed to a prison term. When he died in 1989, his family had managed to entangle and foolishly manage his empire into a financial and legal disaster, with his immense wealth evaporated. However, Binion’s reputation remains, as does his bronze statue in Las Vegas and his status as the creator and patron saint of the World Series of Poker.
It’s a bit difficult to believe that so many participants in the Texas Gambling War lived and operated all over Oak Cliff — and that several of the major hits took place here. But those are the facts, ma’am. Those are the facts."Then there was the BLACK SHIRT GANG of Oak Cliff of 40s and 50s.
This gang was not like the Lakewood Rats or Vickery Rats.
The rats used only fists. Fought one on one.
Black Shirts didn't limit themselves.
The kids of these gang members are what the 60's produced in Oak Cliff, and the inevitable decline of all the neighborhoods didn't help.
Helen Markham's son was mixed up in burglaries and thefts, ran with the bad boys and was buried in a prison graveyard.
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On 8/31/2021 at 4:39 AM, Steve Thomas said:
Gil,
It has always intrigued me that the two times Oswald went "missing" in his life, he wound up resurfacing in Oak Cliff.
The first was the missing two weeks between October 19-November 3, 1962, and the second time between September 25-October 3, 1963,
in the 1963 incident, Ruth Paine allegedly dropped Oswald off in downtown Dallas on October 7th to look for a job and a place to live, He winds up on foot at Mary Bledsoe's place on Marsalis with clothes on hangers hanging on his back.
Did he go looking for a job carrying his clothes?
Why Oak Cliff?
How did he know so much about the neighborhood layout?
Steve Thomas
Great questions Steve,
Beckley Bunch thread material!
Lee disappeared as no one admits he took the Beckley bus, of course if the investigation doesn't look where he is then he is 'disappeared' alright,, disappeared right to where the bus drops off, Jefferson Blvd and Texas Theater. With an inconsistent witness/informant in Brewer right there.
As for walking about with all his belongings looking for a room across Oak Cliff it strains credulity.
Especially when he supposedly has rooming house telephone numbers he can call...but that never happened.
You'd have to imagine anyone who knows Oak Cliff would have better sense of rooming establishments
Cheers,
Ed
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On 9/2/2021 at 12:31 AM, Paul Brancato said:
Oh that’s really special Ed.
Paul, your repeated attempts at pushing Nightmare on Gil is more than special
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On 8/30/2021 at 7:42 PM, Joseph McBride said:
Gil, I generally admire your work, but this statement
is just absurd and caused me to have to re-read it
more than once to realize you actually wrote it: "Having spent some time as a police officer myself, I understand how it all works. I find nothing suspicious or sinister about the Dallas Police dispatching J.D. Tippit to Oak Cliff. They just wanted coverage in a high crime area while the officer assigned to that area was at lunch."
The officer who allegedly went to lunch was William Mentzel, but in fact he and Tippit
were dispatched by the DPD before 12:45 p.m. to hunt down Oswald. Mentzel's
story about lunch is ridiculous on its face and obviously a cover story. Mentzel became
involved in an auto accident nearby and said he regretted Tippit got hit instead.
Nothing suspicious or sinister in any of this? The time frame and the order to hunt down
Oswald in Oak Cliff well before the DPD officially knew who he was (they actually had
been surveilling him for quite some time, and he was an FBI informant)
show that Tippit and Mentzel and the DPD itself were involved in the conspiracy
to pin the JFK assassination on Oswald (if not more).
Joseph McBride, I don't admire your work.
I find your findings to be unsound, weak, and without merit.
You lack the intellectual curiosity to investigate any of the circumstances and readily buy into a sham.
Good for you not educating yourself on DALLAS POLICE IN 1963.
But please explain away how no one in the DPD did anything to incriminate Lee. Apologists need apply, as you can not knowingly support your tenet.
Mentzel is your boy, not ours Mr. Mc Bride.
Or are you admitting you are wrong about the DPD officers. (In general)
Cheers!
Ed
Oh BTW nothing in your post negated anything in Gil's post.
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Of import is the statement by Lee that he kept his belongings and especially he says his clothing at the Paine's garage.
Forget looking for those pesky sea bags marked OSWALD as they would ruin the charade. (Robert received one from Paine's oddly when all the property was being collected over two days yet Green Sea Bags with OSWALD stenciled on them just never made the DPD inventories.
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On 2/28/2020 at 1:17 AM, Andrej Stancak said:
Please correct me if I misunderstood the new scenario for Lee Oswald, however, this is what I get from Ed's posts: Lee Oswald somehow got to Oak Cliff (route unknown), to the shoe store where he was supposed to meet Marina and Ruth Paine with their children and buy shoes for June. The randezvous was cancelled because of Kennedy's assassination but he went to that shoe store anyway. As Marina and Ruth and children did not turn up (but the meeting was already postponed so why would Lee expect them to come), he went to Texas Theatre just to spent time there.
I find this scenario improbable and logically inconsistent but what is of greater concern is that nowhere in this scenario is there any stop at a place where Lee could change his clothing. Lee Oswald left, at least some people still assume so, 1026 North Beckley about 7.30 AM on Thursday, November 21. He went to work and after work, instead of returning to his rooming house, he went to Irving with Buell Wesley Frazier. He then came straight to work on the next day, November 22, without being able to change his clothing. Thus, he had the same work clothes on him the whole Thursday and Friday morning.
The point is that Lee changed both his pants and his Briarloom shirt before his arrest. That has been discussed in another thread, however, if someone is able to prove that Lee Oswald wore the same dark brown shirt CE150 both on Friday morning and Friday afternoon after his arrest, he/she can be congratulated for clearing one of the greatest mysteries in JFKA case because, under such scenario, Lee Oswald could not be Prayer Man. The dark CE150 would not fit the shirt seen on Prayer Man in Darnell, only the light-red CE151 shirt would.
Take away 1026 North Beckley (or some other credible address) as a place where Lee Oswald changed his pants and shirt after he left the Depository and Lee Oswald can be discarded as Prayer Man.
Late edit: it is easier to see that Lee Oswald, if he was Prayer Man, changed his slacks after he left the Depository because those he wore at the time of his arrest were very dark, possibly black, while Prayer Man's pants are of much lighter colour.
Andrej is confused.
As I have stated clearly from the start and on other threads that Lee Rode the Beckley bus.
Is clearly wearing same shirt as he has on in Weigman and Darnell.
His leg as PM is not that long Andrej
Your proportionality is way off if that's a leg.
Lee was not to meet anyone in Oak Cliff but Marina and Ruth planned to go shoe shopping that afternoon.
Deduction is not your strong suit sorry to say Andrej...
He would naturally check or looked in to see if maybe his wife was shoe shopping at a shoe store.
How would Lee know they were not going shopping after all Andrej?
Did he call ... can you point out testimony or records of this call that would provide him the necessary information, or not?
When you say "the meeting was already postponed" can you give any clue as to how you determined that? Or how a non-meeting is undone? It'll be fascinating.
Lee went to the theater, like all others there, to watch a double feature. How sinister or incriminating is that to you... ah no worries it's not incriminating to anyone else.
SAME SHIRT ON STEPS AS ARREST.
Lee supposedly says he stopped off and changed his britches. AKA pants.
NO SHIRT CHANGE. NO T-SHIRT CHANGE.
Again you need to show he lives at Beckley before you have him undressing in the room... or it'd be a shock to the actual tenant.
CART BEFORE HORSE...
Are you positive Marina didn't rinse out his clothes or use Ruth's fancy machines Thursday evening? Again you make a point but the same point goes both ways.
So conversely if he wore the same clothes to work Friday he didn't have any clothing at Ruth's... OR all his clothes were at Ruth's and he did wear different clothes and the ones he wore Thursday are moved to the Beckley pile while at DPD headquarters and not listed as Irving.
You need more to convince me that he has different pants on than ones we can not see in the films.
And NO. The red shirt does not match PMs.
The arrest shirt does.
Why still have the bus transfer if your going to a house on BECKLEY.... from a route on Marsalis.
Ever find that Beckley Bus driver that's supposed to drive Lee to work daily for 6 weeks???
NO!?!
Seems an important witness, as this could be a bus Lee "transfered" to...
But no worry keep asking irrelevant questions and obstinate observations.
So sorry but hinging PM on crap analysis of unobservable trousers is ridiculous and nearly beneath comment. You don't have the aptitude for any analysis without some strings attached it has become clear.
THANKS THO for outting yourself and lack of any real skills at photo and film analysis.
Just for giggles what shade of dark are his light pants that look dark if what you claim is a leg is his leg... a grotesque limb if it exists.
I'll help you out Andrej.. they are dark just as arrest pants were.
CORRECTED IF MISUNDERSTOOD. Check.
Ed
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Looks like no evidence has been posted to sway anyone that Lee lived at 1026 N. Beckley since I started this thread.
Things like a key for a tiny room or a copy of that other search warrant or a guest register or a single receipt still are no where to be found. Wink 😉
Inconsistencies are avoided at all costs.
Witnesses are all mistaken as to Mr Lee, his appearance, his attire and reading materials. Not shocking as it was Degrafenreid or Leon Lee.
NO ONE DESCRIBED OSWALD.
DID THEY...
WHERE'S THE DESCRIPTION WITH SILVER BRACELET WITH LEE ON ITYou'd think some thing like an inscribed bracelet with LEE on it would be recalled as it would be supportive of a Mr LEE identification.
WHERE IS THE DESCRIPTION OF MR. LEE WEARING A MARINE CORP RING OR ANY JEWELRY, THERE IS NONE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT OSWALD...although Steve Roe has made apologies for it all.
Cheers to the "Bunch" here that did more than give excuses.
Some outstanding affirmation and information was produced by the bunch.
My thanks to you!
CHEERS, ED -
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:
Hey there Larry... and Ed please correct me if wrong here... the doors to his room had keyholes for locks...
Yes.
I believe Pat lives in Room #1 the first room on the right upon entering. Does she lock her room?
Exactly the same doors and locks as room 1 were on the tiny room. Room 3 is the tiny room per USPark Service.
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:. it was said by the more current owner Mrs. Hall I believe that he was not provided a key as he had a non-locking room while the basement and 2nd structure had rooms which included locks since they bypassed the main house...
That is her claim, yes.
The main house would be open for renters to come and go, I'm guessing they wouldn't be watching tv all night and no kitchen privileges kinda puts limits on what one could do...
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:At least that's how I read it. and that the room rates where the same either way.... his "receipt" shows $8/wk... the Ad for the room which Roe posted said $7/wk.
Starting at 7 dollars.
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:One would think he had one of the locked rooms if he was there.
Yes doesnt seem one to stay in hostels or open homes. Rentals are not secure and landlords liable for not having secured rentals... mind boggling.
There was only one other Room in the main house for rent and that was room 1.
2 held Mr Johnson
4 was Gladys
5 was Earlene
Not normally rented out the tiny room is sans key... oy vey.
The basment and rear house renters needed TWO keys... double oy vey.
2 hours ago, David Josephs said:... and I think my other point above needs repeating... in true DPD fashion, the photographing of his room AS THEY FOUND IT
or as they open drawers and closets to find all this stuff...happens with the same attention to detail as the interrogation
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The could have had little Studebaker with his months of police photographer work history or anyone with a camera... but all those people were having a late afternoon lunch with all the stenographers who worked at the DPD.... DPD tape recorders where parting gifts, sorry we're done plumb out of 'em here at Homicide.......
Take care Larry, DJ
Yes why did they photograph minor auto accidents in Oak Cliff whilst not borrowing the camera for this crime scene. Indefensible.
Ed
PS to believe their story the Detectives et al had plenty of time and could have called on the telephone and simply asked the lab boys to stop by.... nah.
Throw everything on a bed sheet and get it out of there before the press arrives was their own claim!!! Cant have photojournalists impugn their frame up.
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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:
Ed:
I asked you not to turn to me unless and until you answer the question how the dark slacks CE158 (black) fit with the slacks seen on Prayer Man. If you eventually find the courage to answer this question I may then be willing to respond to your posts.
Are you claiming his shirt was tucked in?
Is that how you're seeing waistline and dark slacks...
No His shirt appears untucked and only partially buttoned if at all.
It was thrown on to step out and see the excitement.
Motions we see in the two films may be Lee buttoning up sleeves, then shirt front.
Natural and logical.
What we dont see are tucking motions.
Or trousers color.
In Towner, etc. Lee is so dark none of his features are visible, thats skin tone to trouser color, all dark.
In Weigman and Darnell the images do not lend themselves to the conclusions you're advancing.
Darkness is darkness, and not being visible is equally mute.
Do any of the others like Lovelady, Williams, etc tuck their outer shirts into their pants.
TIA
Cheers, Ed
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Please post the message to / from Pat please Andrej.
Thanks, Ed
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3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:
David:
I cannot answer the points which are related to poor documentation of evidence.
OR MAYBE NOT DOCUMENTED BECAUSE THERE WAS NOTHING TO DOCUMENT
However, not only myself but others before have noted that the "Briarloom" shirt CE151 was found among Lee Oswald's possessions, as well as two pairs of grey slacks.
BOTH THE SHIRT AND PANTS WERE EXAMINED BY FBI AND CUT OUT PIECES WERE TESTED. NOTHING WAS DETERMINED.
The presence of these items is consistent what Lee Oswald told the interrogators -
NO. Wrong Andrej.
He told them he went by bus to the theater.
Fritz and Co. then convince us that was a mistake and instead he took a cab and then stops to change clothes, gets a gun and runs to murder a cop at 1:08
Incredible Andrej.
And more incredible is you say CONSISTENT.
3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:namely that he changed his shirt and slacks. It is also consistent with the clothes seen on that unknown man standing at the western wall of Depository doorway. However, the black slacks CE158 would not match the pants seen on that unknown man. And the shirt CE151 it is also consistent with some of the testimonies addressing Lee Oswald's clothes on Friday morning.
Lee Oswald used to bring his laundry to Irving every weekend and Marina did the washing and ironing. Thus, Lee did not have to bring his laundry to local laundries. The exception was Thursday, November 21 and it looks that this visit was kind of special. It also means that Lee wore his Briarloom shirt CE151 and grey slacks to work on Thursday morning, 21/11, went in these clothes to Irving and returned to work in the same clothes on Friday morning. I do not know what were Lee Oswald's plans after he left the Depository after the shooting, however, changing his clothes would be high on his agenda.
No it wouldn't be, he was trying to catch up with the wife and kids as they planned to go shoe shopping. He took the Beckley bus to Jefferson and walked to the shoe store, looked in and went on to catch a movie instead.
He would wear the same clothes to Irving as usual
That's consistent Andrej.
3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:The black polo shirt seen on backyard photographs - could it be that the shirt got lost or damaged and then disposed of during 8 months elapsing between early March and November 22?
OR HE NEVER OWNED SUCH CLOTHING, MUCH LIKE THE REVOLVER AND RIFLE...
The rest of items found or not found or labelled strangely - this all may be true and it may point to a bad police work.
OR A FRAMING OF AN INNOCENT MAN
The lack of photographs of his room is certainly one of reasons for having this conversation today.
Yes and lack of any contemporary supporting evidence among others.
Cheers, Ed
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Passport, the address book...
Odd Oswald had no toiletries or change of clothes at Ruth's house of Paine.
So he supposedly didnt shave, comb, brush teeth or wear anything but what he wears to Irving on weekends and then wears the same clothes to work Monday's.
Bloody unlikely.
Seems his attire would be predictable and other workers would notice this.
All the docs etc supposedly found at Beckley would of course be neatly contained in the "blue and black" valise... convenient.
Cheers, Ed
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Look up Andrej
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9 hours ago, David Josephs said:
So whenever he was not there - especially weekends - the grandkids had access to his pistol and holster and everything else he had there?
You're suggesting that our Oswald would be okay with leaving all of his possessions accessible by anyone wandering into his room - does that sound like our Oswald?
Wondering why they would lie about a WINDOW versus a DOOR....
and yes there were a few windows but "light and cheery" ?
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus comes to my immediate attention
12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules:
"Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. "
This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest.
Was there a curfew, did they get locked out if not in by 11? (I realize the main house was unlocked... all the more reason for renter with stuff to steal to have a lock.)
Why where the basement and back garage apts entrances locked?
Were the locks changed, and thus the keys too , regularly or ever?
What happened when you left and didn't return keys?
How many spare keys did the Johnson's have?? Who was their locksmith?
Andrej.
I hope your lawyer explains this absolves Lee as the space was OPEN to the public... Earlene see's a "man" run in run out and waiting at an inbound bus stop.
Sorry but no Grey Eisenhower Jacket was ever claimed by the Johnson's or Earlene.
The color they do say is more reminiscent of the arrest shirt than any Eisenhower jacket. Zipper or not.
Search Warrant irregularities and this un-secured room are Reasonable Doubt's best friends.
I Thank you.
Ed -
7 hours ago, David Josephs said:
True... excuse me for using my 2020 brain to come to 1963 conclusions....
Thankfully I missed the draft... turned 18 in 1980.
Still doesn't address the painfully private Oswald and an "open to all" room.... it seems terribly incongruous when the place did have rooms with locks for what appears to be the same $7-$8 per week.... using the 1963 brain again, I realize many homes were just left open and unlocked... different atmosphere from a time long gone
Looking at this list - some pretty sensitive things to be left in an unlocked, unsupervised room... since he went to Irving Thursday he could have removed some of these things knowing he was going to do for what he was eventually charged.... Stopping off on the way with WESLEY would solidify Beckley... Wesley didn't even give him a ride to his Beckley room on HIS way home each night... saving Ozzie bus fare... but that doesn't happen.....
Food for thought... the little zippered bag claimed to have traveled to Mexico with Ozzie was Brown... not "Blue and Black"... FWIW
"38" holster... yep its official... haha
And where did that OSWALD sea bag go?
Shouldn't Andrej ask Pat a few more pressing questions.
Of course Oswald had no key to Beckley. and no receipts or witnesses. But you can take a $ tour.
Cheers, Ed -
46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:
John:
I would not like to open the shirt issue in this thread again as the risk is that this becomes another Prayer Man thread. The problem for no-North Beckley scenario is both the shirt and the slacks. Prayer Man wears a shirt and pants which appear as a continuous grey. This would be consistent with CE151 and his grey work pants. The slacks he wore after his arrest look black and most likely are black. Therefore, there is a contrast between his shirt CE150 (burgundy) and his very dark pants in his arrest photographs - there is no such contrast in grey between shirt and pants in Prayer Man.
In the context of this thread, it is both the shirt and the slacks which matter because according to no-North Beckley scenario Lee Oswald did not have a chance to change either.
However, people mostly argue about the colour of the shirt. Pat Speer has a very good chapter on the shirt problem in his book which is quoted along with my shirt research in this thread (starting page 3):
If you look closely on Prayer Man shirt, it has dark spots at some areas. These are consistent, at least so it appears to me, with CE151 but not CE150. Yo will find in that thread also quotes from Sean Murphy's research of Lee Oswald shirt.
If you would like to open the shirt question, please continue in the Prayer Man is a Man thread.
Please find here the contrast in grey between CE150 and black pants in a photograph of Lee Oswald after his arrest. There is no such contrast in Prayer Man.
Yes best for Andrej to not have you turn the page.
Page 4Cheers, Ed
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11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:
Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules:
"Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. "
This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest.
As expected.
What else can she say?
It should bring you or anyone with a little concern to ask why this was never spoken of before this?
Seems a large detail to conveniently gloss over.
And late arriving detail at that.
Why did the room have a lock?
Pat is claiming they gave keys to some tenants but not others?
How does she know that? Did they charge a deposit for the keys, so a small seven dollar room may cost a dollar more for a key and be $8
Is that the proof you accept?
Where are her records on this matter Andrej?
She should have more to this than belated story #3.
Where is any other tenant saying they stayed in the tiny room sans key? (or even room 1)
Where is the original doors with their lock Andrej?
Either way it does not make it any more believable anyone would keep a loaded firearm in an unlocked room.
I am sure a man who would sit children down to tell them never to hurt another human being would keep a revolver where they might just play or fight, or play fight with the gun... why not keep the rifle in the room? It'd be disassembled and of of course safe as long as a dime was not in proximity... oy vey.
Did the Johnson's rooms lock?
Did Earlene's room door lock?
Doesn't Pat occupy the first room with the same painted glass double doors? Does her door lock now? Why not? Where is that key.
Where is the key to the tiny rooms doors?
It has a keyhole.
Cheers, Ed
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Isnt it amazing how many people were informing on others back then.
Guess the electronics have superseded human intelligence.
Thanks David.
Ed
PS oddly no such name plate exists likely never did. Also because meter reader checked March 20 and reports it vacant, but March 14th there is a name plate?
An FBI report stated a visit to 214 W. Neely, March 14, 1963 showed the mail box had a name plate attached reading Mr. and Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Why stop at the name plate, why not ring the bell or interview the 'name plate' displayers? Week seems enough time for Hosty.
Name plate seems an expensive luxury item for renters.
Though some tape and a marker could suffice I guess...but that isnt the description.
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She was 11 and doesn't admit Mr Lee was Herbert.
Her stories have stories.
There is no there there Andrej, and never was.
The only historical significance is the police frame up used Mr. Lee and Beckley to cinch up a commie cop killer, whom was innocent of all counts...
If Lee Oswald did live in any tiny room sans key, receipts, signed guest registration book, and witness then this is a holy place.
Much like the virgin Mary was impregnated without intercourse so Oswald too was 'forced' similarly to give birth to a legend of Beckley...without deposit.
No contemporary evidence should make one stop and requestion their beliefs.
That means your 1026 religion is not based on proofs but hopes and prayers, the true definition of religion Andrej.
Much like Jesus, the police tell Johnson's that he wont be coming back. Whoa. How prophetic eh Andrej, must be true.
Pat Hall has used rumor and lack of evidence to pay for her lifestyle.
Her income is based on her misrepresentations.
... That's saintly Andrej?
What part of the planet did you say you inhabit mate? Utopian it must be. As none of your statements make sense in Dallas Texas any day of any week.
Cheers,
Ed
PS you must have found a Beckley Bus witness or Driver if this was gods choice.
Double Cheers
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7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:
There are couple explanations of how Police learned about North Beckley as Lee Oswald's address.
1. A conspiracy explanation: a very small number of police officers watched Lee Oswald's steps after he arrived at Dallas in October. They knew his work address, they knew about Irving, they knew about North Beckley. They might have been around in Oak Cliff and were checking on Lee Oswald perhaps on everyday basis. Officer Tippitt might have been one of the few officers who knew Lee Oswald's Oak Cliff address. These officers were responsible for submitting Beckley address to Captain Fritz once Lee Oswald landed on the third floor of Police department. It is possible that the same officers followed or tried to follow Lee Oswald right after the shooting which would explain Earlene Roberts testimony of seeing a police car 106, 107, 207 or 270 stopping and honking twice in front of the rooming house.
2. A non-conspiracy explanation: Depository employers were brought to the Police headquarters before Lee Oswald and when one or more of them saw through the glass walls Lee Oswald as he was paraded in handcuffs, they pronounced his name. Charles Gevins was one of them. This guy or these guys could also add that Lee lived on Beckley and a police officer who heard this information went to Captain Fritz's office and told him that Lee had a room on Beckley. Captain Fritz took this information and started to probe Lee Oswald about Beckley - this is described in Captain Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission. Based on the description of the neighbouring area provided by Lee Oswald, Captain Fritz knew it was North Beckley where Lee Oswald lived and sent his men there right away.
Both explanations safely assume that Lee Oswald lived in North Beckley rooming house.
Sure, and Fay Puckett could have called in to police.
Thus the call from a different address attributed to Gladys and questions about it in documents provided.
Fay would of course be saying she knew the man and his address. When she in fact knew a similar fellow named Mr Lee at her mothers rooming house.
Why did none of the above get mentioned by anyone involved...
What about the employees of the TSBD that rode the Beckley bus daily also?
Why were none from this bus ever questioned about this?
I do not believe Will Fritz for a hot second.
Why Andrej entertains scenarios to absolve a law man who has been proven to be dishonest.
Accounting for Fritz's history should preempt all of #2 by Andrej.
Then there is a postal informant angle and that 3610 Beckley address.
Ed
PS
PO Informant doesnt have to be Holmes.
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Brian Doyle is wrong.
Whatever his excuse for being such is irrelevant.
I was under production.
I did license the film from NBC.
But the, I quote, "the powers that be will not allow access to the original..."
This was in response to my paying a third party of NBC'S choice to scan the original in 4k or 8k (double scan) at my expense.
Then NBC would have their original, plus a free 4k scan that would be better than the eventual deteriorating celluloid.
And no...
All I was allowed from the gate keepers was a copy from the master copy.
That master copy was likely made for the anniversary show on nbc.
It could be on 3/4 Umatic - VHS tape ie composite video formats, although that info is not offered up front or when I asked. (really there is no difference in quality compared to the original film though) so you might get a whopping 280 lines of resolution but in a super high quality format of Pro Res HQ.
Garbage in a fancy box is still trash.
NBC is not making copies from the original to licensee, they already have a copy the licensing department at Universal Clips uses for that.
The vault is closed for business... how odd. I would have paid much more for a 4k scanned copy than the multigenerational unknown quality "copies"... seems they dont want better revenues at all but low quality versions of the truth.
Please listen to the experts and leave Brian's comments to the appropriate bin.
Cheers,
Ed Ledoux
CEO, Maui Film.
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46 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:
Unless the whole idea of that event was to create witnesses noticing the escape, including witnessing that the driver was Cuban --a setup that could imply a Cuban conspiracy.
For about a year, I've been chewing on an idea. The idea that witnesses were meant to see "movement in the windows of the TSBD", to observe "men with guns", to see "someone who resembled Oswald". Some of the witnesses who described what they saw, seemed to me to be describing a kind of "laid back" demeanor --almost as if they were trying to be noticed. Heck, even Umbrella Man and Fist Man were obviously suspicious.
Maybe this was all, in the beginning, to implicate the Cuban government.
Creating witnesses could be a negative effect. Thus why two assassins are shown if only one patsy was needed..?
Likewise if there were plants in the crowd, how effective they were is seen by the length of time between shooting and first finding of the so called snipers nest.
That took way too long for a real live shooter tracking the target, taking aim, firing, feverishly working the bolt, aiming, reacquire the target, firing, feverishly working the bolt, aiming, reacquire the target and firing...supposedly waiting to see if target was hit...some even claim a slow withdrawal of rifle from the window.
Thusly.
If it took longer than a few seconds to point out the exact window you witnessed shots being fired from and what you saw...
then you didnt see a active shooter.
Your mind told you stuff your eyes didn't witness.
Boxes were men with guns. Just ask Robert Groden, I believe he interviewed one of the boxes.. oy vey.
Brennan is moot. Eunis less than that.
The hundreds of sane rational people witnesses to the event sure as hell did not solely and immediately point to the TSBD.
They in fact all went or looked to the railroad yard and triple underpass area.
And that's a fact jack!
Many sane rational people went directly back inside the TSBD. Not chasing any sniper but went back to work.
A broom or mop might be taken for a rifle, after the fact, in an upper floors window.
There were others who had no alibi but each other. Jack Dougherty (Gee where is this 'innocent' mans photo????) and Piper. (Fbi photographs Piper and West) Jack mentioned being up on Six about the time he hears one loud noise. But he is a white male... not to be confused with the supposed male white shooter Jack must of been so ugly his family didn't love him enough to take pictures it seems. The fbi too must have taken one look at Dougherty and said no thanks, no film in the camera, just four empty frames for Piper and West... no more film available to get a image of a man admittedly up on Six about the time...
Good thing Jack didnt see any action in the Military as he had to ask Piper what the noise was. Piper, somehow, knows better 5 floors lower what the noise was.
Yep all sounds perfectly logical doesn't it Paul.
Cheers, Ed
or as they open drawers and closets to find all this stuff...happens with the same attention to detail as the interrogation
TSBD Rear Exit
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Houston basically ends... hence the train tracks and such. It's not paved level with the tracks..
You would either by running across the railroad's tracks or simply cross Houston and continue up along Daltex to Pacific.
Worrell "might"*** have been at the parade but didn't witness what he claimed.
His story can only exist in a vacuum.
Add air and it dissolves.
Please watch him explain:
https://youtu.be/dBRb_kRz2d4
SPECTER - What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.
Mr. SPECTER - Well about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?
Mr. WORRELL - An hour; an hour and a half.
REALLY!?! He mastered time travel before dropping out of high school at age 20!
SPECTER - Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing - and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself - at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where were you standing, as best you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.
Mr. WORRELL - Right underneath that window right there.
Worrell's claimed position
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_359.pdf
SPECTER - All right. Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.
Mr. WORRELL - That car is in the way.
A car in exhibit 359 is of course parked on Houston street not on the sidewalk in front of TSBD.
SPECTER - Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?
Mr. WORRELL - Within a hundred feet, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; go ahead and tell us.
Mr. WORRELL - Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too.
....Oy vey and good grief......
WORRELL - Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.
SPECTER - Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.
It gets worse for the unemployed roughneck dropout "Dicky Worrell"... but I won't bother to post it as his testimony is impugned by himself at every juncture.
The Warren Report rightly leaves out Worrell's words.
I have never seen a photo or film that supports Worrell, neither his actions or what he claims.
This puts Worrell in same category as Amos Euins and Euins' unnamed friend.
Useless.
Ernest Scared Stupid's namesake Ernest P. Worrell would be a better commission witness.
Seeing a rifle firing from TSBD... twice... it's enough to make Brennan blush.
Cheers!
Ed