Ed LeDoux

Thanks Don,
Hmm, mildly interesting. I covered most of this on Lancer. Did some interviews, wrote it up.
But new stuff turns up,,,

So a quick look and:

Are you a traditional Catholic, an economic libertarian, and entrepreneurial
minded? If so, and if you are interested in some exciting joint ventures with
excellent profit and "cause" potentials, please contact Michael Engler at
2550 Via Tejon, Suite 3A, Palos Verdes Estates, CA 90274 - phone (213) 378-5243

Anyways, back to the subject, here is Mike Paine in 1947 Horace Mann-Lincoln school.

His senior year photo and quote, an ROKC exclusive scan.

Anyone else sensing a Bates Motel - Anthony Perkins vibe?

Thanks for bringing us back to the topic, Ed.

By the way, that's a GREAT photo of Michael Paine -- I've never seen it before.

And no, there's no Bates Motel vibe there -- there's a rich, ivy-league Prep School there. That boy will become an engineer at Bell Helicopter Corp. I predict.

As for Anthony Perkins -- what a handsome actor he was. I still remember his 1960 comedy with Jane Fonda, Tall Story. Sadly, Perkins was type-cast by Alfred Hitchcock and made most of his money doing Psycho 1, 2 and 3 over the decades.

Maybe Michael Paine isn't quite as handsome as Anthony Perkins, but I do see a mild resemblance.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

No worries Paul,

There were no Horace Mann- Lincoln yearbooks with Mike in them available online so I found a 1947 book to purchase .

Lincoln school, 1917, was a special school based on an article by Dr Abraham Flexner called The Modern School based on urging by Dr Charles Eliot, President of Harvard.

Dr Flexner's work caused establishment of the Institute For Advanced Study at Princeton.

It was established to improve education not just in the US but throughout the world. (world peace would not be too far from a goal too)

Students choose their course study and instructors show the relation between the course of study and life itself.

Instead of chemistry being a bunch of memorized symbols and definitions, they would apply the study to their environment.

Flexner dropped classic languages of Greek and Latin, saying their relative importance had declined. Plus they were poorly taught, he noted students scores whom had studied the subject.

The school had no bells between classes, this was called 'progressive education' based on philosophy of change.

The way to find the best way to change education methods and teaching was to experiment.

Lincoln was an experiment.

The progressive schools were allowed a flexibility. free from certain static curriculum requirements. Under the the Aiken Plan, Professor @ Ohio St., students would be admitted to college without taking College Board Exams

In order to prove the methods tried at Lincoln were sound and adaptable the school was conducted in connection with an older school, the Horace Mann school.

Horace Mann school was the demonstration.

In 1940 the schools mergered.

Now an experiment school was one with its demonstration school. This was not what was optimum, and in 1946 trustees of Teachers College decided to close it.

Teachers College said it could experiment in public schools more effectively and economically. TC offered the parents the choice to administer the school themselves...if not the school would close.

Parents, teachers, and students and outside interest groups opposed the closure.

This is from the 1947 yearbook... of course the school continued, but the most interesting connection is this about the school.

A Long Tradition

Horace Mann School was founded by Nicholas Murray Butler in 1887 as a coeducational experimental and developmental unit of Teachers College, Columbia University. In 1947, it became an independent day school for boys in grades seven through twelve. The reestablishment of coeducation was accomplished through mergers with the New York School for Nursery Years in 1968, the Barnard School in 1972, and the enrollment of girls in the high school beginning in 1975. In 1887, a full year's tuition for a high school senior was $150.

The School’s founding fathers named the school after Horace Mann (1796-1859). Horace Mann was a lawyer who served in the Massachusetts State Legislature. He was the first Secretary of the Massachusetts Board of Education, a Member of the United States House of Representatives, and President of Antioch College. He used each of his positions to proclaim that every person, regardless of their background, should receive a public education based on the principles and practices of a free society. He also proclaimed that slaves should be free, women should vote and the mentally ill should be cared for. Although Horace Mann’s ideas were revolutionary, he did play a leading role in establishing the elementary school system in the United States.

Ruth Paine's Alma Mater!

Chronology: A Sampling of Important Dates

1886 The Barnard School was founded

1887 Teachers College and Model School founded at No. 9 University Place

1891 Nicholas Murray Butler leaves the Presidency of Teachers College. Dr. William Hervey becomes President

1894 Horace Mann School and Teachers College move into a single building on 120th Street.

1894 Virgil Prettyman becomes Principal of Horace Mann School

1901 Horace Mann School moved into its own building at 120th Street and Broadway in Morningside Heights. The School was across the street from the former Bloomingdale Insane Asylum which was being used as a students’ dormitory at Teachers College. By this time, however, Horace Mann was becoming less of an experimental school for the students of Teachers College to try out their new ideas, and more of a well-recognized school in its own right. Teachers College eventually created the Lincoln School as a new co-educational school in which to practice their experimental teaching methods, leaving Horace Mann more and more independent.

1909 Teachers College purchased lots on 246th Street in the Fieldston section of the Bronx. Alumni Field opened there as an athletic facility. The property is reported to have cost $20,001 which was paid for by Mr. Prettyman.

1914 Horace Mann School for Boys opened on 246th Street. Henry Carr Pearson became the Headmaster of the Horace Mann High School for Girls, still on 120th Street.

1920 Charles Carpenter Tillinghast was appointed Headmaster

1924 Prettyman Gymnasium and Pool opened

1940Horace Mann High School for Girls merged with the Lincoln School

1946 Horace Mann-Lincoln School closed

1947 Horace Mann School for Boys obtained complete financial and administrative independence from Teachers College. The new Board of Trustees received a provisional charter changing the School's name back to Horace Mann School

1950 Dr. Mitchell Gratwick becomes the third Headmaster

1951 Horace Mann's permanent charter from the New York Board of Regents was granted

1954 The New York School for Nursery Years was founded

1956 Pforzheimer Hall was built, named after Mr. Carl H. Pforzheimer, who was chairman of the Board of Trustees

1962 Alfred Gross Hall, housing the Van Alstyne Auditorium and new cafeteria, opened. The old auditorium became the Theresa H. Loeb Library. The fourth floor of the newly-renamed Tillinghast Hall was converted from a gymnasium into classroom space

1965 The John Dorr Nature Laboratory, 85 acres of land in rural Washington Depot, Connecticut, was left to the school by John Dorr, an inventor and a neighbor of Headmaster Gratwick

1968 Horace Mann established the Horace Mann School for Nursery Years through a merger with the New York School for Nursery Years (which had been founded in 1954 and housed in Andrew Carnegie's old carriage house on 90^th Street)

1968 Harry Williams named Acting Headmaster

..............

Bell Helicopter and world peace, makes for an modern dichotomy. But Mike was free to live as he chooses.

Anyways, back to the subject, here is Mike Paine in 1947 Horace Mann-Lincoln school.



His senior year photo and quote, an ROKC exclusive scan.

Anyone else sensing a Bates Motel - Anthony Perkins vibe?

Pony tail vs two pig tails can be a very slight distinction depending on how they are presented.


Do they appear to be pig tails or a pony tail?



What does it have to matter with the JFK murder?
If what happened was as Mrs Whitworth said, and if Marina was right, then somebody was impersonating Oswald and his wife. IMO


Or confusing Oswald/Marina, with some other couple, after the fact.
Perhaps a Czech couple.

Did Lee lock Marina in during the day?
One could suspect it was Marina, but she was driven there by a friend with a 57 Ford, while Ossie was at work.

Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a 1958.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?
Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?
[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?
*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.
Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.

Marina dyed her hair dark, coincidentally, for this testimony and .

Marina's responses and how this store resembles closely what Marina recalled the store looked like only add suspicion it was her.

(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while Standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before I am quite sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's-right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why I wanted to see rifts store, but maybe I have forgotten by now--

This is less than supportive of Marina never having been in the store. From the used clothing to the old cafe and bus depot accouterments it seems a match like the baby's birth date.
Both Edith and Gertrude had trouble identifying Lee.
Edith thought maybe it was him in a couple pictures.
Gertrude could not say it was Lee from looking at photos.

The missing tooth could be something Marina may of hid. (self conscience) or simply did not speak to her?

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.

Kinda hard to see into a closed mouth, yes?

Other details like the jacket are of interest,

Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I pregnant at that time?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?
Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red.
Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one.

Oswald and a gun...I'd say no. That includes the Dial Ryder repair ticket which was to bolster this "plunger" incident.
Marina is always a possibility if not then as Ray said somebody was impersonating Oswald and his wife.

Anyways the "plunger" on C2766 worked fine, and did not need replacement. And it sure wasn't replaced the first week of Nov 1963 ... or at anytime.

CE 2974 is a letter from J. Edgar Hoover to Dr. Lee Rankin, Warren Commission general counsel, which contains information about the examination of CE 139. Mr. Rankin inquired what the term “plunger” meant, whether the firing pin had been replaced, and did the FBI have information on where replacement parts could be found. Hoover informed Rankin that “plunger” was a synonym for firing pin and that because the firing pin on CE 139 had “been used extensively” and that there was “rust on the firing pin and its spring” the pin had not been replaced. Finally, Hoover says the pin was “well oiled” and that the oil had to have been applied after the rust formed.

Capper is according to Dial' ticket a plunger was not fixed but a sight was yet C2766' telescopic sight mount was not installed by Irving Sports Shop.

The guns and Oswald stuff is so dead in the water it needs flushed. (Plunger not included.)

Cheers, Ed

Bob,
Can you show us this paycheck voucher?

Edith Whitworth And Gertrude Hunter also did not see a rifle.

They claimed a short paper wrapped package, and the man said he needed a plunger.
I think the guy clogged his toilet but others claim that he saw an old gunsmith sign and Edith thought the guy wanted a gunsmith.

Here we can see that a customer had a broken tool, too short to be any MC rifle part, yet we get this exchange.

Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't remember it, you know, what he asked for.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.

Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure I might have told them that I thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought 'it was; is that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement that I knew exactly what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me.

...
I'm sure he did!

So I guy whom came in with a broken, dirty, toilet plunger handle wrapped in paper and is now Oswald wanting gunsmiths.
You can't write this stuff, it's incredible, it is worse than Bledsoe on the bus.

Guy never says gun, never wants any directions to the new gunsmith, etc.
Edith say she thinks she told him sports shop on Irving.
Hunter is so sure it was a gun part she claims he came in saying he wanted gunsmiths, but this was due to her hearing plunger.
So she is sure about the wrong things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it Was back down east on Irving Boulevard.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.

She must have been hard of smell too.

" Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building. "

Which, in his solo report, Bookhout changed to....

Because the above means he got a soda on the second floor, then ate his lunch on the first floor and was on this same floor when the President passed.

Yes Tommy, after the suspect was dead there would be some changes...

The joint hosty-bookhout report doesn't mention any cop encounter.

Both the solo Bookhout written account and Fritz' report do - both placing it on the second floor.

The joint report would seem to be more honest - keeping in mind Fritz had simply cribbed his notes from Bookhout.

Point being Oswald was not actually asked about any such cop encounter.
In all likelihood Bookhout and/or Fritz concocted the question - and Oswald's confirmation of second floor encounter was after the Patsy is dead.

This all allegedly happens in interrogations prior to the last one where Holmes sat in.
Letting Holmes question Oswald was a mistake by Fritz. It exposed the changes, the skewing of fact.
Holmes was supposed to stick to questions dealing with his expertise (Mail, Addresses, etc.), but he went and ruined it by asking Oswald about his alibi.

In essence... I don't think anyone asked about what Oswald was doing when Baker was on his gun-totin' rampage.
And definitely no 'what were you doing up on the Third or Fourth floor' questions either.

The only mention by Oswald of the second floor was in regard to getting a coke prior to the assassination to have with lunch in the domino room.

Belin quizzed Holmes about the cola because of the falsehood Bookhout and Fritz had conjured up.
Holmes struggled because he didn't know what answer they wanted.
All Holmes knew about a coke was what Oswald told him, that he had bought one at lunch time.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion– he kind of—-
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet–well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see.
(Was he miming drinking a cola Tommy?)

Mr. HOLMES. Then he said when all this commotion started, “I just went on downstairs.” (Still no soda)

“I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.”

In his report Holmes mentions no soda, Dr Pepper or any bubbly beverage of any kind,

"Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "He is one of our employees"


I guess Holmes is a Momma's son too huh Tommy, since he didn't play along with pop?

[...]

Ed,

That's wonderful. So Baker wasn't such an idiot, after all.

By the way, what did you mean when you said that Belin's asking Holmes about whether or not Oswald had mentioned Coca-Cola during the 11/24/63 interrogation was "a different question, about a different time" (i.e., had nothing to do with Oswald's alleged claim on 11/24/63 that he went down to the first floor "vestibule" when the "commotion" started)?

Now, if you can't answer my question (see post # 241, this thread), I completely understand. In which case, perhaps Barto or Parker can?

Thanks,

--Tommy

To repeat myself Holmes was asked that question and answered about a different time.

Holmes gave the only answer he could, that the only mention by Oswald of the second floor was in regard to getting a coke prior to the assassination to have with lunch in the domino room.

Sbohem,

Ed

Marrion L. Baker was born on August 12, 1930 in Blum, Texas, USA as Marrion Lewis Baker.
Here is Marrion "Lewis" Baker (top middle)

Note that he was receiving a "distributive education". Definition of Distributive Education. : a vocational program in marketing and sales set up between schools and employers in which the student receives both classroom instruction and on-the-job training.
Hmmm working and going to class. It seems to have been for a sheet metal company.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

So let's nip this Marrion 'was a good cop but he was always slow' stuff in the bud.
Some are relying on the nickname momma son and the word of Stavis Ellis to suggest Baker was not bright - going so far say he couldn't read, write or add... the cops (as represented by Ellis) had a vested interest in painting Baker as "not real bright" because let's face it, that covers him for a multitude of "sins".
As for the nick-name "Momma Son"... it sounds more like a nick-name for someone a bit effeminate rather stupid.
Some would try to reinforce the "stupid" angle by bringing up Tippit.
But in Tippit's case, the evaluation was by a trained proffesional, not a cop with a motive.
Tippit was not good at writing etc. His employment file shows he had to get others to do his paperwork for him - something that no doubt made him pretty unpopular with colleagues.

Now getting back to Baker - Baker graduated High School, graduated the Police Academy (I think Tippit graduated only due to the GI Bill http://forums.officer.com/t45596/) - and last but not least, Baker worked as a MATERIAL CLERK at Chance Vought.

Here is a description of the work a material clerk does.

https://www.mymajors.com/career/material-clerk/

Receive, store, and issue materials, equipment, and other items from stockroom, warehouse, or storage yard. Keep records and compile stock reports.

Not something a slow momma's son would be tasked with for a year and a half, and graduated high school while working, graduate the academy and work for the force 23 years til retiring in 1977.

What did Marvin Johnson say in his statement:
"After determining the origin of the shots, he jumped from his motor and ran into the building. He found a man who said he was the building manager. Officer Baker and the building manager then went to a stairway and started up the stairs to search the building. On the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Which part makes him slow or a momma's son? The rushing into a building he thought shots had originated part?

When Patrolman ML Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, 'that is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository.'"

Fritz says 4th floor.
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/26334/rec/9

Stavis recalls 4th floor,
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/7204/rec/8(page 3)

That's a huge conspiracy Richard... all these folks telling a lie.

What was it Mark Twain said, history is a lie agreed upon.

Did Baker see Oswald "walking away from the stairway" or did he see him through the window in the door?

How did somebody who was at a loss when it came to "reading', writing' and rithmetic' manage to get into the Dallas Police?

What else could have drawn Baker away from his roof raid, through a door, into a hallway and accost a man drinking a soda?

They had to add the element of walking away.

This fit with his fourth floor walking away suspect in his original statement.

The Sydney Morning Herald (11/23/63) reported that “Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that ‘I work here’, and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.”

Detective Ed Hicks told the London Free Press (11/23/63) that "Oswald apparently came out the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what the excitement was all about.”
Page 57 Prayer Man, Stan Dane.
Hicks was not at the interrogation and would not know of Oswald's claim.

What he reported meshes nicely with what Oswald told Holmes.

Postal Inspector Harry Holmes sat in on the November 24 interrogation, took notes, and testified that Oswald had stated that “A police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees…” (VII p. 302)

Mundane explanation to follow I'm sure.
Now one might be thinking these mundane explanations are excuses and equal apologies.
And if they are apologies then that makes one an apologist.
Add to the equation that these are really Warren Commission explanations, mundane or not, then that would make one an Warren Commission apologist. The maths are straightforward.

"1) every single item of lunchroom-related evidence has a mundane explanation that supports the incident's reality"

Except every early 11/22 statement, news account and later statement placing one Lee Oswald on the first floor, front entrance, steps, vestibule, exit.

Stavis Ellis reports what Baker was telling him as a fourth floor encounter with a tan jacket wearing man.

Nothing in Bakers initial account says anything about a DOOR, LUNCHROOM, WINDOW or COCA COLA.
Stairway are the operative word which there are a set in the vestibule.


I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me.

Because lunch room vestibule doors are sound proof the door must have been .... open, right?

“Any fool can turn a blind eye but who knows what the ostrich sees in the sand.”
~Samuel Beckett

The Coca Cola is a different question, about a different time.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. ...Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.

"Well, all you have is guesswork, Ed,"

And here I was being accused of 'guessing', when all Trejo had were guesses.

Want to discuss furnishings of Lee's and Marina's, since your 'baby' got thrown out with the bath water?

Of interest is the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee And Marina, even at the questioning not once did Marina say they had furniture, for the baby, themselves, the apt. or otherwise and as such would not need to be in that store. They were looking at a kids bed.

And this just makes your claims questionable,

Oswald attempted to get his wife to come back and, over Bouhe's protest, De Mohrenschildt finally told him where she was. De Mohrenschildt admitted that:

if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take my wife away,

and all the furniture

, I would be mad as hell, too. I am surprised that he didn't do something worse.253

Paul , that's from Chapter Seven of your favorite book the warren-commission-report.

And that crib theory you had...

Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

So crib did break down? It could fit in a trunk or on a roof of a car.

Hmm, seems you were mistaken no matter which way you fold it.

Cheerio Trejo

Well, Ed, you're still trying to be clever -- but the information you provide is still very skinny.

You seize upon somebody's random use of the word "furniture", but when you look closer, all they describe is a baby crib.

But that was my whole point. The largest "furnishings" that the Oswalds ever had was a "baby crib" which some people call a "baby bed."

NO OTHER FURNITURE of the Oswalds was EVER DESCRIBED -- EVER.

And all the evidence that you scrape up, from anywhere, Ed, only serves to make my case stronger.

You've got NOTHING, NADA, ZIP to contradict my material observations.

The Oswalds had a baby crib. George Bouhe bought it for Marina Oswald. LHO threatened to smash it.

That's it!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Shall we see about your above claims?

Well, Ed, you're still trying to be clever -- but the information you provide is still very skinny. ~ Trejo

Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

I am starting to pity you Mr. T

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, and--about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."

And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to Anna Meller's house with the baby.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, that is how she described it.

Mr. JENNER. She was there a week.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the second time? What month was it?

Mr. JENNER. I don't know.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there for the second time, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all the furniture also. I could not forget that--because my car was loaded. You could practically feel the gound. I still have the same car in Haiti today.

We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them.

Somewhere in here between Taylor needing a trailer to move the Osald's, George De Mohrenschildt's

car rubbing the ground, and a move to Paine's the load gets much lighter. It had to.

Mrs. PAINE - Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the. playpen, stroller, and other things on top.

Okay Trejo, so then only things Ruth could fit in/on her heavily overloaded, boat laden, car went with Ruth.

Mrs. MELLER - I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for the child.

Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby?

Mrs. MELLER - No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the baby.

Bouhe buys an Montgomery Ward playpen for about $11 for the kid.

1959 playpen

Or Thayer model of same vintage,

They fold and are easily transportable Mr. Trejo

Care to discuss furnishings further?

Your showing with baby furnishings was puerile.

"Well, all you have is guesswork, Ed,"
And here I was being accused of 'guessing', when all Trejo had were guesses.

Want to discuss furnishings of Lee's and Marina's, since your 'baby' got thrown out with the bath water?

Of interest is the Furniture Mart sighting of Lee And Marina, even at the questioning not once did Marina say they had furniture, for the baby, themselves, the apt. or otherwise and as such would not need to be in that store. They were looking at a kids bed.

And this just makes your claims questionable,

Oswald attempted to get his wife to come back and, over Bouhe's protest, De Mohrenschildt finally told him where she was. De Mohrenschildt admitted that:

Paul , that's from Chapter Seven of your favorite book the warren-commission-report.

And that crib theory you had...

Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

So crib did break down? It could fit in a trunk or on a roof of a car.
Hmm, seems you were mistaken no matter which way you fold it.

Cheerio Trejo

"the old-fashioned baby stuff wasn't foldable like today's. You needed more than just a car." - Trejo

Gosh thanks I was not aware, I was under the impression it was:

June 25, 1963 K. LUTES 3,094,714

' FOLDING BABY CRIB Filed June 23, 1960 2 Sheetsv-Shee't 1 ill INVENTOR KEENE LUTES DECEASED,

BY JOSEPH C. LEWIS, ADMINISTRATOR ATTOQ N EYS June 25, 1963 K. LUTES FOLDING BABY CRIB 2 Sheets-Sheet 2 Filed June 23. 1960 INVENTOR KEENE LUTES, DECEASED, BY JOSEPH C. LEWIS, ADMINISTRATOR AT TO RN EYS direct and mesne assignments, to Russell Yealey, Walton, Ky.

Substitute for abandoned application Ser. No. 177,722, Aug. 4, 1950. This application June 23, 1960, Ser. N

3 Claims. (Cl. 99)

This invention relates to folding beds, and more particularly to an improved folding baby crib.

The present application is a substitute for patent application Serial No. 177,722, filed August 4, 1950, now abandoned.

A main object of the invention is to provide a novel and improved folding childs bed which is very simple in construction, which is easy to fold to collapsed position or to unfold to a usable position, and which is very sturdy in construction.

A further object of the invention is to provide an improved foldable childs bed which may be employed either as a crib or as a rockable cradle, the bed being foldable to a very compact bulk, being relatively inexpensive to manufacture and being readily transportable.

https://www.google.com/patents/US3094714?dq=foldable+crib+1960&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHioGo2NfKAhUB7GMKHVZEBFcQ6AEIHTAA


and

https://www.etsy.com/listing/200710382/portable-baby-crib-vintage-bed-folding?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-home_and_living-furniture-kids_furniture&utm_custom1=055defe8-cc17-40d8-8bba-e0de3fcec871&gclid=CJi3xtjx2coCFYlafgodrM0AvA


or

https://www.etsy.com/listing/207426889/vintage-wood-playpen-vintage-portable

or

http://vintage-ads.livejournal.com/3189339.html

or

https://www.etsy.com/sg-en/listing/106302023/vintage-wood-portable-crib-by-port-a

But what would I know. Although it looks like your theory has crib death.

...Oh I see the Oswald's had enough that she needed to borrow a pickup truck to haul it all. Much like Gary needed to rent a trailer to haul it all.

Your point is showing, I suggest a hat.

Dasvidanya,

Ed

Ed, I already explained that one couldn't just use a regular car to transport three adults and a baby, as well as all the clothing that LHO and Marina had, plus a baby crib and a baby stroller.

You can't use a car for all that. You need more.

Larry Hancock's comments on this topic are also relevant here -- the old-fashioned baby stuff wasn't foldable like today's.

You needed more than just a car.

But that doesn't mean they had FURNITURE. Nobody , not one person, not even the affidavit you provided, in fact NOTHING that you provided, suggests that the Oswalds had a bedroom set, a living room set or a dining room set. NO ACTUAL FURNITURE OF ANY KIND WAS EVER DESCRIBED BY ANYBODY.

But like Jeanne and George DeMohrenschildt implied, George Bouhe was so infatuated with Marina Oswald that he went overboard in collecting charity for her, and they said (if they weren't exaggerating) that they collected A HUNDRED DRESSES for Marina.

Even if you stuffed them all in office boxes, you'd probably need twenty office boxes for a hundred slim dresses. You can't fit that in a car. So they had stuff -- JUST NO FURNITURE.

Nor did Gary Taylor say that they had "Furniture." Nor did ANYBODY ELSE. So, where did you get the idea?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Exactly, well sort of,

"the old-fashioned baby stuff wasn't foldable"

So Lee tossed it on a pram, stuff that wouldn't fit on/in a car(how big?) or trunk? Others say they needed a truck and trailer to move their "Furnishings"

Furnishings: an object that tends to increase comfort or utility; especially : an article of furniture for the interior of a building —usually used in plural

Asta la vista Trejo,

Ed

And does any of this make a interior corridor or room into a vestibule?

No.

Tata,
Ed

Check the national fire codes, Dallas county code, City of Dallas code for both fire and occupancy.

And perhaps Ian could tell us it occupancy rating, work performed by Bryd or TSBD to meet occupancy requirements?

There is plenty of "Evidence That Shows" Ian, thanks though.

Baby carriage and crib are apartment furnishings to you?

So Gary didn't need a trailer but for kicks rents one instead of tie crib to roof, and put the pram in trunk?

Okay.

Paul, he also swore it in an affidavit
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/taylor2.htm


Now Mrs. Hall said,

Mr. LIEBELER - I understand that you helped Marina move from the apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed?
Mrs. HALL - Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the moving?
Mrs. HALL - Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas that night, that afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that helped you with the moving?
Mrs. HALL - No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER - There wasn't very much to move?
Mrs. HALL - No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first time when George went -
Mr. LIEBELER - George Bouhe?
Mrs. HALL - He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very nice about that.

Oh I see the Oswald's had enough that she needed to borrow a pickup truck to haul it all. Much like Gary needed to rent a trailer to haul it all.
Your point is showing, I suggest a hat.

Dasvidanya,
Ed

Thanks Tommy, but before we rewrite the TSBD architecture to include a feature never before called a vestibule, two facts:

Hallways, corridors and Passages come in all lengths, curves, angles and number of doors.

Some even have doors separating the hallway or passage into sections.

Vestibules connect to the exterior of buildings.

You have a date set for the vestibular nuptials yet? Where will the reception be, a small 'room' with three doors?

I guess that makes the storage room behind the lunch room also a vestibule! You can hold it there.

When Oswald used the term correctly it places himself in a very specific area. First floor, entrance. (see #171)

Mazel tov,

Ed

Fast Eddie,

That thing on the second floor is the funniest-looking enclosed, compact, five-sided, three-doored "hallway" I've ever seen.

OK, if not "vestibule," should we call it a "closet," instead? Or a "cloak room?"

Hey! I got it! How about "a compact, five-sided, three-doored, passageway nexus" !

Anything but "hallway," Fast Eddie.

Mahalo,

--Tommy

PS An overheard (by the NSA) hush-hush conversation between two gun-and-drug-dealing TSBD employees: "Let's meet at 4:30 in the Second Floor Nexus. You know, that strangely-shaped little hallway by the lunch room, the one that has three doors and kinda connects everything?"

Its you whom needs to slow down here Quick Tommy,

Yours is the oddest shaped 'vestibule' in history, let alone the fact it does not connect to the exterior of a building.

You incorrect usage does not make a corridor into a vestibule.

What exactly is your room a 'vestibule' to? The lunch room? Or the hallway? Or is it a stairway vestibule, by your definition it would depend which way your heading.

Perhaps you can coin a new term, multi-vestibular. I wouldn't stay up late waiting for a knock on the door from Strong's Concordance, or Oxford, although they did add awesomesauce so who knows.

vestibule is (architecture) a passage, hall or room, such as a lobby, between the outer door and the interior of a building.

http://the-difference-between.com/vestibule/passage

You see QT, a room not connected to the exterior can not be a vestibule.

Don't you have a mud room? Same deal. Or do you wear your boots inside like Frankenstein? A mud room is a type of vestibule.

I see you, much like Dallas' finest, would like to destroy Oswald's alibi by misusing the English language.

And this is the point isn't it. Make Ossie guilty somehow by moving the encounter away from the real vestibule to your faked up vestibule that never was. Its a rhetorical so no question mark or need to reply.

You are wed to this! Who is going to throw the bouquet, you or the 'vestibule'??

Where are you going to hold the reception?

Perhaps an "enclosed, three-door room" like the storage room behind the lunchroom? You can hold it there and call that a "vestibule" too since its enclosed, and has three doors!

And of note, the Warren Commission removed the word HALL from the second floor diagram. But did not include Vestibule!

If you check the Third and Fourth floor spaces have the HALL clearly labeled. They also have doors separating the halls from the stairway. Code would require a door/s between the stairwell and occupied spaces.

The self closer on the second floor stairwell door is a safety device for fire, not noise abatement. The double doors at the end of the hall, like on 3rd floor, were the original fire doors(by the #27) But as you can see smoke and fire could proceed through the spaces via lunchroom to the stairwell.

The odd shaped room was added as the interior occupied spaces (lunchroom, Conference, etc) were exposed to the stairwell, so a partition was added to separate them, and be compliant with an self closing door. Now interior had a way to access the lunchroom without having to enter and exit a self closing door, and as you may have noticed in the re-enactment videos, and photos those 2nd floor hallway double doors are always open. as allowed.

Was Oswald spotted by Baker, as Baker climbed over some invoice boxes on the second floor landing so he could get a good view into the stairwell door window and into the lunch room where Ossie was frozen in the lunch room doorway? Is this how you see it QT?

Ossie knew what the term vestibule implied, unlike my booted and neck bolted friend Quick Tommy, he had seen many vestibules at Embassies and the historic European Architectural concerns he visited, toured, and photographed. He was supplying a specific location, of which the TSBD had but one proaulion.

Shape size and number of doors are not requisite of corridors, being connected to the exterior is of vestibules.

The Greeks and Latin speakers knew that a vestibule connected the outer to the inner.

Tommy would rather have corrective surgery on the TSBD to avoid the obvious.

Lee meant Lobby, Holmes recorded it as such as Holmes verified it with Lee as to the location, first floor.

That is Holmes Checked and Mated your newly termed "vestibule" at the front door.

Bon Voyage,

Ed

Your skirting the issue.

So why the Uhaul?
Where did the furnishings go?
Why claim the place was empty later? Would that not imply it was full before?

What Ruth took with her would not require a trailer, correct?
She left Lee with an furnished apt. then?

My point -- since we're talking about Oswald furniture -- is that after depositing his Marine duffel bags and his few suitcases at the Greyhound bus terminal, LHO accompanied Ruth, Marina, baby June, and Ruth's two children back to the Oswald's Neely Street residence, and LHO spent the next hour or so emptying the apartment of their few belongings into Ruth Paine's car -- with the baby crib on the top, IIRC, and tying it all up with rope. Ruth helped LHO with the tying.

Did Ruth help tie up the rifle too?
Do you have a single piece of evidence to back this claim she deposited sea bags?
Go ahead show us the sea bags with tags, markings, etc.
Show us!

Prove this "POINT" Paul

Mazel Tov,
Ed

Thanks Tommy, but before we rewrite the TSBD architecture to include a feature never before called a vestibule, two facts:

Hallways, corridors and Passages come in all lengths, curves, angles and number of doors.
Some even have doors separating the hallway or passage into sections.

Vestibules connect to the exterior of buildings.



You have a date set for the vestibular nuptials yet? Where will the reception be, a small 'room' with three doors?
I guess that makes the storage room behind the lunch room also a vestibule! You can hold it there.






When Oswald used the term correctly it places himself in a very specific area. First floor, entrance. (see #171)

Mazel tov,
Ed

Yes the Google defense, quite popular among the kids nowadays.

I did a Google too, TSBD and Vestibule.
Amazin what one will find with a less restrictive search
Pictures like this,



And text like this,

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
...
Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Keep Googling yourself Tommy, you'll know when you get it just right.