Ed LeDoux

Gene,

Interestingly Gary described Neely as if he had only seen one picture,

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Or maybe he actually had been there and remembered only the balcony, as it may very well have been the apartment's only "remarkable" feature?

Do you think the WC lawyer should have asked him to describe the kitchen, or the bedroom, or the living room, or, heaven forbid, the effing bathroom?

--Tommy

She didn't try to lock Gary in the bathroom, that didn't work remember ;-) So yeah unremarkable.

Does that look like a Ruth mobile at the curb?

And Gary said he had to rent a trailer (Uhaul) to move Oswalds from Ft. Worth to Elsbeth,
yet Oswald supposedly moves from Elsbeth to Neely with a pram.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were. and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

What could you possibly move on a baby carriage? Besides the baby...
Do you think Lee left his furniture with Tobias and Jurek plus his key deposit too?

"The furniture was badly worn."~ Gary Taylor

Gene,

Interestingly Gary described Neely as if he had only seen one picture,



Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Bob,

The fact Lovelady would be able to see this interaction with Oswald, Truly and Baker leaves little doubt it was an entrance encounter,
A front vestibule interaction.

Did Lovelady witness the front stairway descent? That can be the only way he would know how a descending descender descended.
I have reservations about when Lovelady is claiming Lee descended, was this after Lee got his soda for his lunch.
The hearsay doesn't provide the answer.

We do know it was not Baker whom stopped Jarman at the front entrance.
Baker was at the front blocking the door upon entry.
This points us toward the truth.

Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature. from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped.

How does he know this? Reid?

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Yet we should believe he heard voices from the lunchroom... hmmm truly remarkable.


Oh and Tommy its called a Hallway.
A corridor in a building that connects rooms
http://the-difference-between.com/vestibule/hallway

The purpose of the vestibule , at least in western Europe, was not to provide a resting-place for penitents, but to deaden the noise outside.
Drats someone should sue the TSBD architects! Dawn? Tidd?

Paul,

In what way do you believe Oswald was an accomplice in the murder? What evidence is there for that?

I would say he believes it in a rather twisted fashion, Sandy. It is really the only way one could believe it.

LOL... okay, so my question is a little ambiguous. I hope Paul gets it the other way.

Well, Sandy, it's somewhat of an ambiguous issue, so the question is understandably ambiguous. But I understand your intent. Here's my answer:

LHO's own words were, "I'm just a PATSY!"

Now, by definition, a Patsy is involved with people who don't respect him (or her) in the slightest, and will sacrifice him (or her) in a heartbeat.

Usually this involves some kind of crime. In this case, the murder of JFK.

Now -- the fact is, a Patsy has been associating with criminals. The Patsy may or may not have knowledge of the crime they are about to commit, but the Patsy is still their FRIEND.

Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he called LHO on 11/21/1963 from Miami, and offered LHO double the price of his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle if only LHO would hand it over to one of his pals at the TSBD in the morning.

Evidently, according to Gerry Patrick Hemming, who was a mercenary on contract to assassinate Fidel Castro, LHO accepted his deal, and took his rifle to the TSBD on 11/22/1963. LHO evidently handed it to somebody in the parking lot, because witnesses tend to agree that LHO didn't take any package into the building with him.

There's my point. LHO was *cooperating* with the JFK Killers. LHO *trusted* the JFK Killers enough to hand over his rifle to them.

LHO didn't know they were going to Kill JFK and blame him -- but he probably knew that it was for some Underground or criminal activity, otherwise, why the high price and the secret handoff? So, LHO was cooperating with criminals -- and he KNEW it.

That's a CLASSIC definition of a Patsy. Trust of the criminals, and doing something stupid for them.

Without the rifle in their possession, the JFK Killers could hardly have blamed LHO for the JFK murder. With LHO's rifle in their possession, the JFK Killers had an open-and-shut case. Henry Wade said, "I've sent men to the electric chair on less evidence than this!"

So, Sandy, that's what I mean. Even though LHO was totally innocent of killing JFK, nevertheless, he let himself become the PATSY of the JFK Killers, and that made him an Accomplice. Yes, a Patsy is the lowest form of Accomplice, but still.

Also, once LHO realized he was a Patsy, as he openly stated, then he could have and should have named names to the Press right then and there. But he didn't. LHO calmed down and kept playing the "Red Maverick" card, and demanded to see New York sedition attorney John Abt, and kept boasting that he was a supporter of the FPCC and that he had lived in Russia.

This means, IMHO, that LHO was still hoping that the criminals whom he trusted would "come forward and give me legal assistance."

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

"Now, by definition, a Patsy is involved with people who don't respect him (or her) in the slightest, and will sacrifice him (or her) in a heartbeat."

"LHO was cooperating with criminals -- and he KNEW it"

Paul ... he was cooperating with the Dallas Police.

"the Un-friendly Pepper-Upper,"

Dawn is a lawyer alright, she mentions it consistently.

Does that mean she needs you to defend her?
If so what does this say about her lawyering?

Are you planning on being a client?
Perhaps you can trade some physics lessons for loyering, I'd have her steer clear of any mathematics you offer to tutor.

Seeing as you recently went through the forum could you post Greg's bad manners?
If you can't then we can all assume your claim is worthless.
What Dawn might think and feel really has no bearing on solving a murder.
I liked how you used her as a puppet in your dog and pony show to prove how despicable Mr. Parker is though.

Seemed like your introduction was a failure. Then you had to add that you were a mod. She must not have been aware of any of your work. She certainly wasn't impressed enough to overlook your association with Mr. Parker to further discuss it.

I'd like to say it's her loss, but maybe its the most cunning loyer tactic ever.
She is getting to Greg by snubbing Gilbride.
It only took a couple years and a few dozen threads to get there.
Good work counselor.

Good one Tommy! And,



.....or 10 to 15 with good behavior...

We have to understand that Adams & Styles, in 3-inch high heels, could not have beaten Truly & Baker to the freight elevator area. You'd have to imagine the gals as faster than Wilma Rudolph & Wyomia Tyus to get them out of the warehouse unnoticed. Or imagine Truly & Baker as taking a 20-second-plus pause in the lobby, which they nor anybody else ever mentioned.

Is this the extent of your math course?
The longer it takes Adams/Styles (A/S) to get to the stairs the more likely she and Styles are to run into Baker/Truly (T/B) on those noisy stairs.
A/S + Time = T/B +Floors.
We can deduce the longer T/B take to ascend, the less floors they climb before running into A/S.
The longer A/S take to descend, the more floors T/B will have climbed before running into A/S.
What Gilbride would posit is a sloped line on a graph. Where either party being slow or fast shows up as a higher or lower floor (vertical) and speed in the horizontal. This line would need one exact point where both parties speeds and timing allow each, party of two, a chance to pass each other. Yet we saw no Adams and Styles reenactment with Truly Baker included.
Of course best to leave unknown variables out of an equation if you want a known conclusion.
This is all moot due to Prayer Man, first floor encounter, statements recorded, the accused's claims of innocence and vestibule location, no notes showing he was asked where he was during the shooting (like they knew and did not want that variable entered), the Marta Stroud letter, and a plethora of evidence, solid , tangible evidence,,,, not a fuzzy math equation and trickle down lunchroom logic.

We don't have any cause to corrupt the data given us- Baker gets to the steps at 0:22, Truly's only 10 feet from the steps, it's an adrenalized situation, they rush into the warehouse, Adams & Styles leave their 4th-floor window about 0:10, etc. Not to mention Adams & Baker seeing a large black guy downstairs, at different locations.

Unless the data given us was corrupted,,, and a innocent man was made to appear guilty.
Adams and Styles had their adrenals removed?
Being on the first floor would be a large negative factor to your lunchroom encounter equation. (AKA The Gilbride Mathematics and Lunchroom Synopsis)
Will Fritz and the prosecution machine were engaged in destroying any alibi Lee had. Did this thought cross your mind?
We have 19 other cases as an indicator the DA and Police were corrupt in 1963 Dallas.
Go scratch your head somewhere else, this has been solved. Its like you're Bowie, the Lunchroom is your Alamo... only no one cares and your knife is really dull. Large black guys were located throughout the first floor

Therefore, when Adams & Styles ran across the 2nd-floor landing, Truly & Baker had to be inside, in the vestibule & lunchroom. The hoaxers have a mental block that forbids this, because they read the testimony (III p. 225) with an extreme bias.

I see that you want to extend the time for A/S and compress the time for T/B.
That T/B speaking in the vestibule, which was more than four words, in your equation takes less time than the four words supposedly spoken in the lunchroom? Bias perhaps?
Did Adams run across the landing?
Wait wasn't she slowed due to the heels, or just one heel trying to slow her up postmortem.
Good god man which is it is she a rabbit or a turtle?

Baker and Truly spotted by Garner, after Adams/Styles had descended, deposits your math course in the circular file professor.
Because "..It doesn't work, Richard. Never did, never will..." Face it Adams ruined your bed time story. Styles following closely behind turns it into fairy tale territory. Two gals clomping along in their three inched shoes unheard and unseen, yet an employee on the other side of a wall and door is?

If you want to believe everything Baker said then where is your water cooler?

Marrion L. Baker and Bow Tie

Major Starvis Ellis, who rode in the front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said

This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots. were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler — he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was en employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD! ~ http://www.prayer-man.com/dpd/marrion-l-baker/

I have confirmation the water cooler was between men's and women's bathrooms on the second floor.
Baker mentioned a water cooler that he saw Oswald was drinking from. Thanks to Sean Murphy for this.
Where does this leave the LRE (lunch room encounter)? Well it gives yet another location which disputes the LRE/ Alamo.

Cheers~Ed

I see several bottles up on Six, another on the steps,....hmm, none are a COKE.

Must have been a conspiracy against the Coca-Cola company!

Seriously even the cops are drinking Dr.Peppers!!


I think this was the first ever product placement in an assassination, and Coke wanted in on it!

Cheers! ~Ed

The Ruth Letter is dated March 4th


As Greg said this could have been a quick stay, and this fits with that.

The Tobias english speaking Marina,
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=44&relPageId=266&search=jurek

Tobias waves at Marina,...? WTH?
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=44&search=jurek#relPageId=269&tab=page

The part at the end about not signing WC statement is a hoot, oh mother!
Jenner nearly got whiplash from that exchange between Mr and Mrs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57698&search=jurek#relPageId=68&tab=page
Here we find out the long statement Marina was supposed to have said in english by Mr T. is reduced to a hand gesture!

Tobias has issues of credibility.

Does Tobias ever call the cops?
Nope not once for glass breaking, wife beating, crying baby, late rent, neighbor complaining, xxxx commie? Please....

The whole thing is a quagmire, with one possible solution being that the Oswald's did move in, but were quickly moved out again and replaced by this other couple?

I'd go with a Czech coulpe, moved in with a white station wagon, an fluent English speaking lady and an unfriendly Czech husband.

But in 1963, people are considerably limited in sharing information. - Gene

Right Gene, usually you had a neighborhood snoop. We did in this neighborhood.

Greg will recall the Friddles,
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=232

As Mr Parker has pointed out and has been substantiated

No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities.

No neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple actually had little doubt that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids - which rules the Oswald's out.

Oswald himself apparently denied ever living there - despite living there in and of itself, having not much bearing on the authenticity of the BY photos.

The owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated back in May and that he had cleaned it up at that time. He further claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination.

There is no doubt (in my mind at least), that Marina never took any BY photos - that the one photo she took was in Minsk with Oswald holding his shotgun above his head.

The most puzzling part of Marina's Nixon story was that she locked Lee in the bathroom, seemingly forgetting that the bathroom locked from the inside. I say she didn't forget. She simply didn't know - and the reason she didn't know was because they never actually lived there.





Here is Mrs. Jurek speaking,

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=575&search=texas_instruments%20jurek

Mrs. Jurek again mentioned
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139&relPageId=451&search=texas_instruments%20jurek

The stories in PBM's book try to cover for many aspects, and in so reveal themselves.


3-31-1963 would be a Sunday. This date would be used by Commission and Marina for dating the Back Yard Photos.
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/3xv68gzoao26duyd/images/1-7b6dc1f14f.jpg

4/1 is a Monday. and on Monday Lee gives his employer an address change to the 2915 Po Box in Dallas.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=234&tab=page
This same day JCS fires Oswald. So Lee gives $60 to George for rent...

Problem is JCS claimed that it had an IRVING address before this. Thanks to Hasan @ ROKC for this.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=127

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139&search=texas_instruments+jurek#relPageId=452&tab=page
When LHO applied for a job at the TSBD, they had 2515 W. 5th St in Irving as his address. Not a Po Box.


Of side note: if Lee is getting on a bus other TSBD employees ride to work 4 (or 5 days) a week, they would know generally where their fellow employee lived. Yes? Odd I don't see a lot of Beckley Bus riders involved in the WC report. In fact Beckley rider was ignored over a single questionable Marsalis bus rider, Bledsoe.

Cheers! ~Ed

Ruth's was Blue two tone Belair Chevy Station Wagon

Of course they recall the people upstairs being the Oswald's, as that was what they were being told was whom lived there.
But under questioning that did not hold true.

Sandy, Minnie claimed it was the people she saw on television, and in the newspapers.
Clydie did not really know the people upstairs and the woman they talked to was not Russian speaking, no one talked to the man other than a greeting, if that, he was rude and or unfriendly.... and the Grays/Williams never heard any Russian or other foreign language spoken. No fights, etc.

Round peg meet square hole.

Whomever lived there was an English speaking woman with a baby, and a man someone whom was not friendly.
The conversations with her were recalled by Minnie Williams.

Received a call from Kristy Gray,
Kristy said she was not living with George and Clydie at the time but said her Aunt(?) was and handed the phone to a Minnie Williams.
She worked a lot and had a baby at the time she lived with Clydie but she does vividly recall Lee and Marina with baby June.
Marina spoke english to her. Not broken english either.
Oswalds did not drive.
Did not see any visitors.
Did not see them attend church.
Doesn't recall landlord/owner.
Thinks George and Clydie had a phone, but Marina did not ask to use it as far as Minnie knows.
Doesn't recall exactly what her and Marina discussed, baby stuff.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17593&page=5

This Author has concluded the people whom lived till May 1st or 2nd at Neely were not Lee and Marina.
Anything Marina says must be vigorously challenged.

Lets look at the MC bus ticket (found while working with Priscilla Johnson)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96924&search=spanish_television+program+stub#relPageId=36&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96924&search=spanish_television+program+stub#relPageId=37&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40#relPageId=612&tab=page

This stub was in possession of Ruth Paine, as Marina says later she took this spanish tv program with her to the hotel the 22nd of Nov.
Couple points here, is Marina saying she collect these spanish magazines and the tv program after the assassination?
Is she saying she took a bus ticket with her to the hotel the first night in her suitcase that she had kept things she did not have till after she would have been at the hotel? which was swept by agents twice.
Anyways Marina tries to deflect that the TV program is in spanish (which she can not understand if she can't read the stub) when Russell asks about Lee not being able to understand/read spanish, by saying it wasn't in a spanish magazine but in a TV program, Point was Lee didn't speak/read Spanish.
But if she collected it after the assassination how would Lee have slipped a MC bus stub into it. He didn't.
The stubs shown are also not in any form English and Spanish. They are for Mexicans not Americans thus in Spanish.

While Ruth was in possession of the suitcase at her home is when this item appears in a spanish language tv guide pamphlet.

And per Marina its from Ruth's..and Marina never examined it before. Okay,
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96924&search=spanish_television+program+stub#relPageId=8&tab=page
Marina says a "person" at her house read the ticket stub and told Marina, Marina gives the material to the FBI. This is very late in the Warren Commissions tenure
this material is given to the FBI during PJM snooping about, a "mystery person" at her house reading spanish tickets to her.
What was in both Spanish and English exactly like Marina says is not the bus ticket, but the TV guide.
My conclusion is she had read an examined this pamphlet and even she may have made some of the markings we see. Would she have liked to of seen a musical? Yes very likely.

So where is the Spanish Language Television Programme? What was the date of publication? And the markings? See Below:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10130&relPageId=44&search=spanish_television%20program%20stub
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96924&relPageId=7&search=spanish_television%20program%20stub
We are led to believe Lee marked it " LEE OSWA" and was to see an English spoken movie in MC, perhaps West Side Story because Ossie loved show tunes?

October 1, 10:31 hours. To phone number 15-69-87. A man outside
(MO) calls the Soviet Military Attaché Office speaking in broken Russian.
MO: "Hello, I was at your place last Saturday and talked to your
Consul. They said they'd send a telegram to Washington and I wanted to ask
you if there is anything new.
SOVIET: I'd like to ask you to call another phone number.
MO: Please.
SOVIET: Please write it down; 15-60-55 and ask for a Consul.
MO: Thank you.
SOVIET: Please"
 Page 44. October 1, 10:35 hours. To phone number 15-60-55. A man [MO]
described by the translator as the same person who had called a day or so
ago and spoken in broken Russian, called the Soviet Embassy Consulate
and spoke with the Soviet guard on duty:
MO: Hello, this LEE OSWALD speaking. I was at your place last
Saturday and spoke to a Consul, and they say that they'd send a telegram
to Washington, so I wanted to find out if you have anything new? But I don't
remember the name of that Consul."

This would be the scribbles in the tv guide. Or so we are led to believe.
As Greg and Bill Kelly have noted,

Australian researcher Greg Parker however, noticed a similar name in Priscialla Johnson McMcillan's book Lee & Marina (p. 68), in which she notes, on October 31, 1959, former U.S. Marine Corps defector Lee Harvey Oswald left the Hotel Metropole in Moscow and took a taxi to the American Embassy. There he told a receptionist he wanted to "dissolve his citizenship."

In the office of U.S. consul Richard E. Snyder, Oswald "slapped his passport down on Snyder's desk and demanded to take the oath renouncing his American citizenship that very moment. And he handed Snyder a letter formally requesting that his American citizenship be revoked and affirming his allegiance to the U.S.S.R. He added that he had been a radar technician in the Marine Corps and would make available to the Soviet government such knowledge as he had acquired."

According to PJM, "Richard Snyder was in a dilemma, for Lee Oswald appeared to be sane and he was within his own rights . . . glancing at Oswald's passport and noting that he was still a minor, the boy ought to have time to think it over . . . The exchange lasted less than an hour, but it had so nasty a tone that it was remembered long afterward by three Americans, besides Snyder and Oswald, who were present during parts of it -- John McVicker, the vice-consul, Marie Cheatham, the receptionist, and Edward L. Keenan, a graduate exchange student down for the weekend from Leningrad."

Could "Edward L. Keenan," the graduate exchange student in Leningrad and Moscow be the mysterious, "unknown American" Philadelphia Quaker student who also rode Oswald around Mexico City on the back of his motorcycle in the fall of 1963?

Parker took his hunch to the internet and came up with one Edward L. Keenan, professor of linguistics at the Univeristy of the City of Los Angeles (UCLA), whose Curricululm Vitae includes a BA degree in Philosophy and Religion from Swathmore College in Philadelpia in 1959 and the Sorbonne (1962), as well as work as an "Escort Interprter" (French-English) for the U.S. Department of State in 1962-64 (summers).

A Quaker student from Philadelphia named Edward L. Keenan! (aka Steve)

Therefore we have an apparatus with Ruth in the middle which can have sightings of 'Oswald' created for various purposes and situations, bus tickets from 'Oswald' turn up, and notes in Mexican TV guide of 'Oswald' produced at will.
Naushon island, the Quakers, The Friends, Antioch, AID,...Ruth has her hand in it all.
Along with George de Mohrenschildt, they would have connections to all the major players in the case, much like a left and a right hand.

The Mexico City trip story is equal to the second floor lunchroom story. Neither hold water when poked at.


Michael Ralph Paine,

He attended an interesting school as a youngster. Horace Mann Lincoln

"Its predecessor was founded as Lincoln School in 1917 by the Rockefeller-funded General Education Board as "a pioneer experimental school for newer educational methods," under the aegis of Columbia University's Teachers College. In 1941 Teachers College merged Lincoln School with Horace Mann School, which it operated as a demonstration school."
He does not show up in the Mannikin the school yearbook associated with the Horace Mann High school New York but in the Fare Forward his senior 1947 yearbook.

And an odd coincidence is,

"An old school, founded by Horace Mann, Antioch went co-ed, did away with grades and developed work-study programs decades before such things became popular.

When Ruth Paine was working with Quakers in Nicaragua in the 1980s, she traveled and attended Quaker meetings with a student or someone affiliated with Antioch, who made others suspicious of them (for keeping notes and taking names), so she maintained her college connections."

Paul doubts you'll publish.

Volume One and Two were flukes Greg. Bow out gracefully.

Thanks to all for your interest in getting a scan of the Darnell copy.
The likely resolution is 5K for a scan.
This would future proof the scan.
It will capture edge markings.

Numerous labs have the machines of various flavors, scanstations being what we are after.

In LA there is Pro-8 , Spectra, Cinelicious and Yale. Of them Cinelicious is preferred.
In Maryland are also numerous 5K Lasergraphics Scanstations.
Boston's Gamma Ray Digital has a Scanstation. etc

Kodak does have a list. Not sure if its up to date.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/support/laboratories_directory/index.htm?blitz=off

As David said it should really be a 8K scan, two-times oversampled and down rez your work files to 4K.
FilmLight in LA has a Northlight2 for 8K scanning.
http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/contacts/locations/locations.php

But here is the deal.
Darnell clip is a few hundred frames(correct?) a very short clip, but we only need the doorway and a few frames after that for the Lovelady/Shelley "stroll"
So a scan of exact frames could be made rather than pop for a full film scan in 8K as that would be cost prohibitive.
This is a different animal than we are discussing so keep that in mind. How about 11K 4sec burns of these frames.

A scan in Dallas would be perfect should we do a full run. I don't know anyone in the big D that has a machine >2k.
I believe 16mm would need minimum 3k to fully capture film grains and any higher is merely preserving it, edge marks, edges for stabilization, and archiving images data FWIW. Thus a 4K Scanity scan will be adequate.

Duncan, Say after me,
"Film Does Not Have Pixels So It Does Not Have Pixel Resolution." rinse and repeat.

Duncan you have the unsubstantiated claims here.
You have been shown to hold an untenable position of determining the sex of an unknown person, or unknown to you as you have failed to give a name.
Its been shown you both say the image is worthless for determining whom that person is and at the same exhalation describe a woman in minute detail.
Hypocritical is the term that Merriam-Webster brings to my attention.
Since you can show no single person that can be in PM's position, and you obviously place Oswald elsewhere, It shows an ingrained bias to every single piece of evidence placing Oswald on the first floor and out with Shelley in front.
Good show mate! Keep up those standards.

Paul, I'll save everyone the trouble if they have not already wasted several minutes with the LHR,...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/hsca/contents_hsca_lopezrpt_2003.htm
412 pages and nothing in it places LHO in Mexico City.

Oswald was not in Mexico City.

My apologies for setting this straight, but Tidd brought this up.

Greg,

Let's cut to the chase.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I do want to address your persistence that there was one individual named Lee Harvey Oswald, whose visage was captured in various photographs from the 1950s.

I see two individuals. That is my perception. You may have a different perception, in which case I'm interested in and respect your perception.

Mr. Jonathan Gardner Tidd, When you post your school pictures from 50's on then we to may see doubles also.


Are you are two people, Tidd 1 and Tidd 2,... see how silly that sounds?
Unless a full head of hair going by the name Gardner Tidd is lurking about?

Are you saying you viewed one Bronx Zoo photo and then claimed it an Oswald double? Impressive Jon!!
Eye glass cleaner not doing the job?
It does sound rather ignorant on the surface now doesn't it Jon, two or so Oswald's, a couple Marguerites,,, its more like a drink list at a local liquor retailer?
Are you basing Harvey and Lee being two distinct individuals on a few bad military records and a NYC photo? Or is there more? Because if you have not been keeping up, H&L has literally been made into confetti Jon. What solid evidence do you have left Mr. Tidd? It appears it has turned to sand in your very hands chum.

This Bronx photo comes at a time when one of Ruth Paine's family ties are helping operate a youth house there.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21803

...Carry on...

Thanks for that Paul....ah Here is something I did on LHO's transportation

Dallas and Irving transportation

October 3, 1963: LHO checks in at the YMCA. Later in the day, he files a claim at the employment office.

October 4, 1963: LHO applies for work at Padgett Printing Co. He makes a favorable impression, but is not hired because of poor references. Later, he telephones Marina and asks for a ride to Ruth Paine's home and is denied. He hitchhikes the 12 miles to Ruth's house. (Yates, Small)

October 7, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to the bus station, and he returns to Dallas to look for work. Later, LHO obtains a room at 621 Marsalis

The CHAIRMAN - Thank you.

Mr. JENNER - How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. PAINE - Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. JENNER - This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. PAINE - That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. JENNER - All right. I would like to get to that. I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128

Mr. JENNER - Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't.

October 12, 1963: LHO advised his landlady Bledsoe that he was leaving for the weekend, and she stated that she didn't want him to return. LHO went to Ruth's for the weekend. (Has BWF give him a rdie to Irving?)

October 14, 1963: Ruth drives LHO to Dallas, where he later registers as O.H. Lee at a new rooming house on North Beckley. Later, Ruth mentions to a group of neighbors that LHO is having trouble finding work. One of the ladies, Linnie Mae Randle, mentioned a possible opening at the Texas School Book Depository; and when LHO calls the Paine home that evening, Ruth informs him of the opening. (After Ruth called Truly)

October 15, 1963: LHO applies at the TSBD and is hired.

October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. (Goes by bus daily?)

October 18, 1963: LHO receives a ride from Buell Frazier to the Paine home, where a surprise birthday party is waiting for him.

Lee Farley added;

This is one detail where Ruth Paine nearly screwed herself up royally. It is not clear whether he came home this weekend for a "birthday party" because this weekend was the weekend that Marina went into labor.

Mr. JENNER - Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. PAINE - Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. JENNER - And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. JENNER - The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. PAINE - We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. JENNER - The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. PAINE - Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right-- skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

October 20, 1963: Marina gives birth to Audrey Marina Rachel Oswald. (As Lee Farley has pointed out there is no mention by Gladys Johnson)

October 23, 1963: LHO attends a right-wing rally where General Walker is a speaker. (How by Bus?)

October 25, 1963: Michael Paine and LHO attend a meeting of the ACLU. (Michael drives him? Where does he drop him after?)

October 29, 1963: FBI agent James Hosty makes inquiries in the Paine's neighborhood regarding LHO. (Mrs. Roberts)

So we have a Hitchhiking LHO and some interesting transportation issues.

CBS Nelson Benton reports, listen at 13:55, that LHO took a bus to his apt, changed, and took a cab to the building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4A3cF2-52A&index=4&list=PLPpNRGOLAlsdIARgRhMsH6svPBWWwCGGh

From Hasan Yusuf

Let’s now look at what Ruth had to say. What I find most intriguing is that Ruth; a woman who did practically all she could to help nail Oswald to the wall, told the Warren Commission that she didn’t know anything about Oswald allegedly beating the xxxx out of his wife:

Mr. JENNER - Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.

Mr. JENNER - What did she say?

Mrs. PAINE - She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.

Mr. JENNER - That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.

Mr. JENNER - Did she go beyond that?

Mrs. PAINE - She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?

Mr. JENNER - I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?

Mrs. PAINE - No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.

Mr. JENNER - And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15 1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE - There was never any such occasion.

Mr. JENNER - Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?

Mrs. PAINE - She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.

Mr. JENNER - Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises—

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her—

Mr. JENNER - On her person?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I never saw her bruised.

Mr. JENNER - At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?

Mrs. PAINE - At no time.

Mr. JENNER - So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

Am I the only one here who finds it a bit odd that Ruth didn’t claim that Oswald beat his wife? My hypothesis is that Ruth’s separation from Mike on or about September, 1962 was a ruse to get Oswald to live with her. I believe that she and Mike were in cahoots with George Bouhe in this regard. I find it a bit too coincidental that Ruth separated from Mike due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” at around the same time that Bouhe said that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her, and observed bruises on her.

The question is; what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to? I think it had something to do with Oswald’s employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. According to the official story, Oswald got the job there through the Texas employment commission. Marina told the Warren Commission that Bouhe had a hand in getting Oswald the job there:

The official story is that Oswald first met Ruth Paine on February 22, 1963 at the home of Everett Glover, a chemist working for the Socony Mobil Oil Company in Dallas. But was he actually living with the bitch before that time? The following is from an interview with Robert Stovall, the President of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall:

“[stovall] said that when Oswald came to work he gave an address in Irving which he later changed to a post office Box number presumably in Dallas.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=329938

On or about September 1962, Ruth Paine separated from Michael Paine; allegedly due to what was described as “unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct” from Mikey. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11246&relPageId=35

What I find interesting is that George Bouhe (a prominent member of the Dallas/Fort worth “white” Russian community) told the Warren Commission that Marina told him (Bouhe) that Oswald had hit her; and that this was within the first two weeks of September, 1962:

And this i find MOST curious

Mr. JENNER - Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE - No, the shoes were for Marina.

Mr. JENNER - Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE - Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

No shoes for Marina on the day of the assassination, but a shoe salesman yes's Oswald.

It seems that even though the Dallas police had the run of the house for a couple of days, they somehow kept on missing things. Although they did seize a cloth zipper bag [CE 126], it had no indications that it left the country.

But somehow, some way, Ruth kept on finding things that the FBI and/or WC needed. But the DPD had overlooked.

In this case, it was an olive colored canvas bag. This bag had remnants of a Trailways bus marker and a chalk mark on the side which said 9/26. Presto, Marina is wrong. Unbekownst to her, Oswald was in Mexico.

But Wesley Liebeler ran into a wee bit of trouble with this particular late arrival from Ruth. The WC said they had a witness who saw Oswald going to a bus station in New Orleans. Even though there was no evidence he purchased a ticket there, they went with this witness. The witness, Eric Rogers, said he thought Oswald had two bags. And he thought the cloth zipper bag, the one the DPD found, was one he had. But he did not at all recognize the olive colored canvas bag, the one Ruth produced. The one with the identifying markings.

It then got worse.

With Ruth's late arriving bag, the WC placed two bags in Oswald's hands upon leaving New Orleans. But the problem now became that first, according to the Mexican bus company Oswald only had one bag. This was a serious problem that David Slawson, for one fretted about. After all, he and Coleman had the task of getting Oswald to Mexico and back. (BTW, getting him back was even worse than getting him there.)

Second, when Oswald--or whoever was impersonating him-- arrived at the Hotel Del Comercio, he arrived with a BROWN zippered bag. This is now a third bag, and it does not match the other two.

Third, the FBI could never find any person or any record from the hotel that confirmed that Oswald ever had the olive colored bag with him. Same applies for the return home. No one and no record ever confirmed this olive bag with the markings on it. The one produced by Ruth.

Bingo!

Now your getting to the gist of Ruth's garage.

Thanks Jim, I'll quickly re-post some items about the Paine family from ROKC:

From Greg Parker on Naushon Island,

Most know that RP took a trip from Texas via Massachusetts to pick up Marina Oswald in New Orleans. We will take a look at three of the inhabitants of the 7 mile long island - a holiday haven owned by the Forbes for over 100 years. Ruth Paine, despite her separation from Michael, was still permitted to use his holiday home there.

Richard and Jenny Alberts come to us through an FBI investigation of all the people phoned by RP in Massachusetts along with all of those in her address book.

Richard was employed as a ferryman by the Forbes family company and the island house came with the job. It just happened to be the one next door to the Paine's. In regard to Michael, the FBI report has this to say: "Although friendly with Paine, they were not on the same social level and did not mix socially." It goes on to say that the family is "well-to-do", do not need to work and entertain often. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10918&relPageId=9

Does the couple described here sound like the charitable quaker/unitarian hybrid who took in and gave succor to a couple below the Alberts in social standing?

The other person comes to us via a USSS commissioned investigation for the purpose of finding out how many homes on the island were rented out and who to. There doesn't seem to be much point to such an exercise unless the USSS suspected something. Did they have information they were acting on, or was this a fishing expedition?

A list of renters was obtained from David Forbes. On that list was Donald B. Straus, described in the report as President of American Arbitration Board in New York.http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11086&relPageId=2

So who was Straus? Donald was a cousin to Roger Straus, Jr. who in turn was the son of Roger Straus, Sr. Roger, Sr, was the president of the Lavenburg Foundation which built and financed Youth House and the housing apartments which were home to the Rosenbergs in the 1940s. Junior was a part owner of Howard Hunt's publisher, Farrar, Straus & Giroux (aslo the publisher of Jean Stafford's bio of Marguerite) and provided Hunt with a reference for "government service" (read: CIA). Members of the same family also owned the department store that employed the wife of George Hunter White.

Another family member, Nathan Staus III, kept close company with Leo Cherne from at least 1971 in a group they called "American Friends of a Free Haiti". Cherne was head of the International Rescue Committee - a CIA front.

AND FROM ROKC'er ANDY A.

David Talbot mentions in 'Devil's Chessboard' that Allen Dulles & Mary Bancroft received invites from Ruth Forbes Paine to Naushon Island. (Source: Talbot interview with Ruth Hyde Paine).

From HASAN!

Cameron Forbes Paine was the younger brother of Michael Ralph Paine. I haven't seen a great deal written about him. Paine told the FBI that he worked in the division of disability accounts, valuation and authorization section, social security administration in Baltimore, Maryland.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10665&search=Cameron_Paine+Baltimore+Maryland#relPageId=3&tab=page

During her testimony before the Warren Commission, Ruth Paine confirmed that the younger Paine worked in social security:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39&relPageId=12&search=Cameron_Paine%20Social%20Security

The following is from an FBI report which is "classified confidential in as much as unauthorized disclosure would be prejudicial to the defense interest of the United States." The following is also contained in the report:

"Will discreetly develop any background information on Cameron Paine, brother of the subject, as well as any information on George Lyman Paine, Jr., their father. who is reportedly a former member of the SWP."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20060/105-60b.pdf

From VINNY!

Paine Family Message Board.

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~jrpaine/archive4.htm

From Greg!

Ruth's petition for divorce stated she separated from Michael on September 1, 1962, and that for 6 months prior to separation, she had suffered a course of "unkind, cruel, harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct" at the hands of her husband. [Warren Commission Document 849, p33]

So... was Ruth lying, or was Michael a monster in Unitarian clothing?

They did stay on friendly terms which suggests that he was not "unkind, cruel, harsh or tyrannical". But that means there was some other, undisclosed reason for the separation.

They separated in September, 1962. Tow other things happened in September 1962.

• The Oswald's met George Sergius DeMohrenschildt
• Mike Paine began attending meetings of the extreme right and left

Ruth Paine and WC defenders alike have tried to defend the wording of her divorce papers as being the "standard" text required in order to obtain a divorce. I have absolutely no issue with that. I know it is true. What I have an issue with is a Quaker who claims that integrity and honesty are at the core of their being, yet who has no trouble lying on a legal document.

If she was willing to lie to get a divorce, what else was she willing to lie about? And if he wasn't "cruel", what was the real reason for the separation... it seems to me, the probable answer is within the two other Sept occurrences...

Marvelous posts Jim!

Minox found in a sea bag.
We don't even have these sea bags as evidence.
At least one sea bag would have markings on it had Oswald actually gone to Mexico City.
So the sea bags vanish from the garage.
One was said to be given to Robert. What did the DPD and FBI do with the other bag? Why not a single photo of these sea bags.
I think the sea bag was also supposed to be a rifle transport device, problem was a broken down MC rifle will not fit in it. Poof, baby blanket now is rifle transport device.

The Paine's garage not only produced evidence as needed it also consumed evidence.

Shasteen's Barber Shop will have some coverage in the next installment by Greg since new info has been uncovered by ROKC, and so will the barber shop kid. The Odum and Paine connection is an iceberg tip.

I will try and post more later.

This years Mary Ferrell Featured books, includes The Devil's Chessboard.



Of note, two of them are from the ROKC forum members.

Sorry Mods, could you please move this thread as it has zero to with JFK, the JFK case, or anything remotely JFK.

Thanks, Ed