Ed LeDoux

We don't need to know the details of how, when, or even WHERE Oswald picked up his revolver in late March 1963.

The fact that Oswald had that gun ON HIM on Nov. 22 proves he took possession of it at SOME POINT IN TIME prior to 1:50 PM CST on 11/22.

Yeah David I'll agree with you, he took possession of it all right, knowingly or not, willingly or not it, and it could very well be prior to 1:50 PM CST on 11/22/1963, but only just.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_time_was_lee_Harvey_oswald_arrested

Ed

DVP will crawl back with something.

Jim,

We have to thank David Joseph for spurring the conversation onward.

The more DVP struggles in this slip knot the tighter the noose, so I relish "his replies" (or whomever writes his material).

Ed

Okay David, If we know it was cash and the Warren Commission knew it was cash, then...Why ask Holmes about a Money Order to Seaport? Was Belin just shooting the breeze with Harry?

Belin was probably inquiring about a possible money order that Oswald might have used to pay the C.O.D. balance of $19.95 (+$1.27) when he picked up the revolver.

What makes you think Belin was talking about Oswald's deposit payment of $10.00?

We have no idea how Oswald paid REA for the balance of the payment. He could have used a money order. Or maybe he again paid cash.

Right NOTHING showed REA gave a receipt to anyone for $21.22, was REA also using the Michaelis system of accounting?

No REA customer receipts, no REA ledger books for monies, no REA bank statements, no REA bank receipts.

It was easy for Michaelis to show a ledger entry for that day but none was offered. Again where is the accounting for the $19.95 (+1.27 COD) for the day Lee supposedly picked up the pistol? There is none. How do we know the whole thing was not done after the fact. Nothing you have is proof Lee received a weapon. What you have is EXCULPATORY evidence.

So you admit that Seaport took cash through the mail? You admit they could not show this transaction on their books?

There is nothing that ties this supposed $10 to Lee.

Below is link to a Seaport ad from 1960, interesting they show a line for CASH. Why did they stop using the ad with a line for cash David?

Also changed is the STATEMENT line, here they don't ask for a witness.

So David, things changed for Seaport:

They no longer added a line for cash.

They added a witness line.

http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/ENFIELD%20SNUB/ENFIELD%20SNUB.htm

When was the DL-28 receipt printed? By that I mean when did George Rose and Co / Seaport order these invoices?

Did they change invoices every time they changed ads? NO

They continued to use the same invoices even though they stopped taking cash through the mail.

Now how detailed was Michaelis in his book keeping?

Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here.

Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting.

Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten.

So we see Michaelis kept a handwritten accounting, a ledger, showing gun sales.

Are you asking me to believe he, as a supervisor/office manager, did not take the same care with Seaports monies?

How much cash did Seaport receive that day David? How many Money Orders? How many checks?

Where is the accounting?

Same goes for REA!!

As Jim DiEugenio asked you: "where is the bank receipt as it was produced for the MC (rifle)? Did Belin learn his lesson there? It backfired on him that time so he just does not ask to see it this time."

Questions you avoid because you don't have answers...answers Belin knew he should avoid also.

Why did they not ask Vaughn? Would she have been able to show this was not a proper transaction thus was never called?

As DVP asked,

"What makes you think Belin was talking about Oswald's deposit payment of $10.00?"

What makes you think a business selling guns mail order couldn't show an accounting for a ten dollar transaction?

Ed

Oh, come on, Ed. Oswald mailed $10 cash to Seaport. We KNOW that, via Michaelis. And since there was no line for "Cash", Oswald merely used the "check" line on the order form.

Why are you calling Michaelis a xxxx when he verified via his WC testimony that Seaport received $10 IN CASH from Oswald/Hidell? Why don't you believe him?

No line for cash because they should not accept cash through the mail!

It was policy to accept payment in the form of MO or Check.

You should 'check' the procedures at that time for selling mail order weapons too.

For Michaelis to be correct it would need to be demonstrated how he came to the 'conclusion' Seaport received this payment. Again no ledger entries were entered into evidence just an order someone wrote paid on.

No accounting of any sort to show Seaport deposited this odd TEN bucks CASH when its pretty clear Seaport took payments as Money Order or Check. Remember Seaport was an offshoot Mail Order Company. So where is Michaelis' ledger book showing deposits on that day for this mail order company?

Okay David, If we know it was cash and the Warren Commission knew it was cash, then...

Why ask Holmes about a Money Order to Seaport? Was Belin just shooting the breeze with Harry?

Ed

This is the only thing that we have to know A.Hidell ordered a .38

It specifically asks for a CHECK or MO for the $10 (1/3) deposit..

And on the line for CHECK (as opposed to the line for MONEY ORDER) was listed $10 dollars. So the question should be...Where is the Check for the $10 dollar deposit?

Till DVP can cough up a Check, by an Oswald or an Hidell, his trying to steer the thread off course will not stand.

Show me where Harry Holmes was asked to go find a $10 dollar Check/MO to Seaport?

Show me where Harry or anyone took it upon themselves to find a Check/MO to Seaport?

If DVP is right (bear with me) if Lee ordered a pistol, why drop this line of investigation and go after all the other bits to put a rifle in his hands, and we are to believe the Check-Money Order-Envelope-etc were not important to Harry Holmes a quote "trained suspicioner"?!?!

Here is the sum total of this inquiry:

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Nice answer, and as clear as mud...

Ed

A simple undistorted enhancement BDM in Willis.

Thanks Duncan.

.. I will keep documenting this research here: thanks for yr interest, and remember: my whole files are avaible to you if you need...

Much thanks Christian!

You know it does sound familiar now you mention it...or it could just be my 'Vu Jade'

(stuff that's never happened before but I know it)

Opposite of Deja Vu.

Okay Thanks Christian,

I understand much better now. I agree with 99% of the operational theory.

I am asking for the 'sponge' to be wrung out completely then filter the colorization of some info back down to a more perceivable level.

When the 'sponge' gets wrung out everything in a sense gets wet with all the info.

I would like to see a refinement to this. If its even possible.

Its like the orchestra all tuning their instruments at once (all info from each musician) If we could just 'hear' the woodwinds or just the percussion it would clear the air so their individual notes hit my ear...so to speak.

You are the conductor, the symphony has already been written.

I'll examine this closer. Hope a sonata is in the works.

Ed

The angle between the limo and camera appears to change drastically between 458 and 459 ,It maybe an effect of the camera, unless Greer veered to the right massively?.

I am seeing a drastic angle change in the limo between 458 and 459 can anybody else see it ?.Or is it a camera anomaly?.

Hey Ian,

There is a bit more motion blur to the car on 459, much more than the LP.

I'm examining the sign on the lamp post, it appears blurred as to look twice its size on 458, which is interesting as the post itself does the opposite when you follow it down to the car it gets so small it basically vanishes.

A curious optic effect?

458 = Car is sharp but Lamp blurred.

459 = Car blurred but Lamp sharp.

Ed

Lee,

I hope he keeps the decorum a bit higher here.

This is the EDUCATION Forum you know, not sure what one liners he has learned would help teach us squat.

Ed

Hello Daniel,

I thought for a second the frames were out of order...but that is not a reason for the LP to change sides of the street and go from in front to behind the limo.

Nice eye Mr. Meyer!

456 shows a brightly lit street impinging on both sides of the lamp post causing it to neck down in this area.

457 shows the Lamp Post covering a portion of the Continental Kit (Spare Tire Cover) and Clint Hill almost disappears into the dark background. No distortion of the LP since it is surrounded by dark objects.

But for 458 to be believed would mean the bumper reflection was so bright as to render the lamp post as thin as a pencil, and the reflection would have to be equally bright on both sides of the LP on that bumper to accomplish this. A possibility.

Ed

Hello Christian,

First let me congratulate this mans efforts. It seems to show more information about the image than we previously had.

But,

I have a question.

I note the close ups have a certain 'noise' associated with them.

The noise causes the retaining wall to be irregular and not sharp with clearly defined edges. Would you agree?

Where as a close up without enhancement would still have some loss of sharpness it would be far less and show an 'edge'.

What I am getting to is the image is of a sharp well defined edge of a wall yet we see a bumpy un-smooth edge when enhanced. This gives me pause when examining the image of the face.

How do I, or you, know the details on the image of the face are not directly because of these same type bumps and noise.

Can you show me the edge of the wall without it being noisy/bumpy (because I know in reality it is smooth and flat).

Thanks. Ed

If David doesn't thank you for the 'rehash' let me.

Thank you Jim.

"6 days after the undetermined bullet came back", I'm guessing, would be 2 days after it was sent?

Cunningham retrieved three more on 03/13/64 Warren Commission Volume III, page 474

They were entered into the FBI lab on March 16 and then examined on the 17th of 1964.

The DPD sent the first bullet (and claimed it was the only one from Tippit's body) on 11-22-63.

Boggs said it best himself:

"I know - We are not following the exact rules of evidence around here"

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=39&relPageId=481

Now wait!

As Cunningham states the first bullet sent was the 'Button Bullet' Q13 as it was sent with the button and was said to have been inside Tippit.

First that is the WORST piece of evidence to send!!! The most mangled bullet that would surely be harder to ID than any of the others to hit Tippit.

Boggs was right.

Ed

Thank you Tom,

That was the connection I heard about through the family but was not clear on:

Joan's aunt, Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney, was a relative of the Harrimans. Gertrude's son, Cornelius Vanderbilt (`` Sonny '') Whitney, long-time chairman of Pan American Airways (Prescott was a Pan Am director), became Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Air Force in 1947. Sonny's wife Marie had divorced him and married Averell Harriman in 1930. Joan and Sonny's uncle, Air Marshall Sir Thomas Elmhirst, was director of intelligence for the British Air Force from 1945 to 1947.

Whitney, Vanderbilt, Harriman, Elmhirst.

I also want to thank you for the article that preceded that info:

"The Brass Check A Study of American Journalism

By Upton Sinclair, Chapter XXII: A Millionaire And An Author".

You want to know what $65 million would be in today's dollars!!

A 'million heir' back then was really worth something, but to be valued at a worth sixty five times that, is an astounding amount, even now.

"Who owns the press, and why?

When you read your daily paper, are you reading facts,

or propaganda? And whose propaganda?

Who furnishes the raw material for your thoughts about life?

Is it honest material?

No man can ask more important questions than those; "

Great questions.

Ed

Mainstream is actually better than simply Media.

Since AM Radio, Books, Magazines, and some Television are PRO-Conspiracy at least on the JFK assassination, that would imply the NY Times, ABC, CBS, NBC's of the world are the mainstream and thus anti-conspiracy.

Eastern power brokers are not into the business of ratting on their friends, or even shining a light in their general direction.

That would be my distinction between the two.

Ed

John,

Would you say its been Filtered or Sanitized?

Ed

Thanks Greg!

That was worth the read.

Ira Whitney could very well be a relative.

The connections are exactly what I expected.

Ed

Excellent summation Jim.

Where there is smoke there is fire and this thread is HOT!

Ed

I would like more info on Mr Whitney.

During the 1970s, Jock Whitney was listed as one of the ten wealthiest men in the world.

He had a spouse who was married to Roosevelt's son , Betsey Maria Cushing.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=43410893

After a honeymoon at Greenwood Plantation in Thomasville, Ga., one of Mr. Whitney's many residences, the newlyweds moved to Washington, where he ran the motion picture division of the Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs, headed by Nelson A. Rockefeller. Mr. Whitney later joined the Air Force, rose to colonel, was a German prisoner for 18 days in 1944 before escaping and got several decorations.

In 1949, Mr. Whitney adopted his wife's two daughters. The Whitneys moved to London in 1957, when President Eisenhower named Mr. Whitney Ambassador to the Court of St. James's. Mrs. Whitney renewed her friendship with the Queen Mother, whom she had met on the 1939 visit to America. Both Ambassador and Mrs. Whitney became close to Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip.

Mrs. Whitney spent a good deal of her time making the Whitney residences comfortable and welcoming. In his book, Mr. Grafton quoted a friend of hers as saying, ''The Jock Whitneys are just about as 'down-to-earth' as any people can be with a quarter of a billion dollars.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/26/nyregion/betsey-cushing-whitney-is-dead-at-89.html?pagewanted=4&src=pm

Could we do a search on him.

Is he a relative to Ira B. Whitney?

Ira was chemical engineer at Oak Ridge and did the fluoride tests.

Ed

David,

Per DVP's website:

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "That is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638."

Seaport shows it got ten dollars CASH, and Josephs correctly asks how the money got to Seaport?

Well if the PO was forwarding monies around for Lee, (hanging my head low in disbelief) then they must have just forwarded the ten bucks too. (picks myself off floor, straightens my tie, and continues typing)

as DVP says:

"I suppose it's possible that I'm wrong about how these types of "COD" transactions worked..."

Ya think?!?!

Yeah have DVP cough up the Jackson pay stub while he's at it.

Oh that's right he can't....Just like a Seaport Check/MO or envelope that would need to hold the coupon and/or ten dollars.

They doesn't exist.

And at this point are fable.

Plus Jim DiEugenio correctly describes the gun as a S&W .38 Special not a Commando. Seaport just called it a commando to prevent confusion with a higher priced snub nose revolver.

DVP tries to argue Smith and Wesson called it a Commando....WRONG! Wrong as wrong can be! Just as he is wrong when it comes to the transactions.

Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. What is the meaning of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as Commando.

Facts are not DVP's friend.

Production:

38/200 British Service Revolver (S&W Caliber) - There were over 571,629 of these models produced between October 1941 and May 1945 for the British Common wealth countries. These countries include the Union of South Africa (21,347), Canada (45,328), and Australia (8,000). The remaining 384,100 shipped between 1941 and the end of World War II were supplied by the U.S. Army Ordnance through the lend lease program to Britain for distribution.

Victory model 38 Special – 352,000 shipped to the Army and Navy. Some of these were shipped to a commission responsible for supplying the civilian industries. They will usually have no property marks. Uses included guarding factories, ports, and federal/local government agencies.

Note: You can find all kinds of variations, with additional war and post war markings. These include rebuild markings, country ownership markings, unit markings, and much more. For a complete listing see the books referenced below.

Recommended reading:

US Handguns of WW II - The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers by Charles W. Pate

Americas Right Arm - The S&W Military and Police Revolver by John Henwood

Smith and Wesson 1857 - 1945 by Robert J. Neal and Roy G. Jinks

The Victory model was so named for the "V" prefix which was placed before the serial number and represented "Victory" against the Axis powers in World War II.

Serial numbers for the .38 special Victory model began at about V1 in early 1942 and ran until VS811119 with a date of late August of 1945 (end of production). V1 to approximately V39,999 were predominately .38 S&W Caliber (I have observed revolvers in the 1-40000 range in .38 special caliber). Serial numbers are located on Inside right grip, frame butt, Cylinder, extractor star, and bottom of barrel. Crane and crane recess are also serial numbered to each other, but this is a different number then the revolvers serial number as is correct for Victory model revolvers.

http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/victory_model_smith_and_wesson.htm

The word PAID on the DL-28 was for the TEN DOLLARS deposit. It shows that the $10 was PAID in CASH. If a bad check came in and was rejected by the bank then the word PAID hopefully would not appear on the original invoice... But if cash came in, then yes it would be marked on the DEPOSIT slip as paid and the transaction moves forward.

Jim also tears a new one for Michaelis' accounting. The ten dollars was marked paid on the order, but the $19.95 isn't and we are to accept that. Not so fast! Jim is correct when he says there is no proof the monies were paid.

There should be as that was Michealis' job as a supervisor/manager!!! I would have Seaport rethink its 'management' by Marketeers. I mean for an 'accountant' or supervisory to say the money was paid because I have an order stapled to another copy of the order is flimsy. Yes the white slip was attached to the red one so I know it was paid????

(He NEVER says I know it was paid because I marked it PAID or it was marked paid, I have a signed receipt, cashed check, postal receipt, ledger entry, etc.)

I have to remember not to hire CPA firm of Michaelis and Co. to do my taxes next year or expect an audit.

Ed

Thanks David!

Now that is an open and accessible president!

Must have being approached four times in that 21 seconds, and got lei'd too.

Ed

Thanks for this Steve.

The many pages of comments are actually more interesting than the article.

Tom Stewart, Joel Grant, et al are way off, funny as they claim to have read everything.

paulpsd7, and paladin22 do some setting straight.

Greg Parker points to Jefferson's use of McAdams' website, and Morley calling it a quality site that "seeks to identify the most reliable information about the JFK story and encourage debate about the key questions".

Come on Jeff!

Ed

...and what about the Alice Fraizer claim:

"Before they left the apartment building, Eva told the assistant manager, Alice Frazier, that she was going to be left in charge for a while. Eva advised Alice not to say anything about Jack Ruby or that she even knew him if she was questioned by the media.

Alice Frazier, the assistant apartment house manager, didn’t heed Eva Smith’s warning and told the reporters everything she knew about Jack Ruby. The next day she was found behind her apartment and her throat had been cut."

Ed

Thanks Greg,

Minnie said Lee was completely unfriendly, she had little to no interaction with him.

It did seem strange Minnie saying that Marina spoke english, unbroken and clear english. I specifically asked about overhearing Oswald' conversations in Russian, Minnie could not recall overhearing any Russian spoken.

She recalls hearing the news of the assassination and of Ruby shooting Lee, but at the time with her job and baby she didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

She said "I guess that's why Lee was so unfriendly, that must have been the reason."

Will send some materials and re-interview.

Also James Jackson did not recognize the two American Bakeries pay checks from the Baylor University collection. He stated his wife at the time had 'visitors' and once caught his insurance man on the back stairs. James did not think much about it except why would the insurance guy not just use the front steps.

Will send photo materials and re-interview.

Ed

I agree Richard,

Khum, Knam or Knum Thay.

Ed