Kathleen Collins
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Posts posted by Kathleen Collins
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Tom, are you saying that Irv Kupcinet had strong connections to the Mob? I know his best friend was Jewish Mob lawyer, Sidney Korshack, who worked from Los Angeles. The mob supposedly asked Irv if he wanted them to send someone to investigate Karyn's murder. He declined.
Kathy C
What happened to Tom Scully? Did he fall off the face of the earth? I know a lot about this subject, so he shouldn't ignore me.
For the record, the Kupcinet family believed David Lange, actress Hope Lange's younger brother and a gofer at her husband's studio (Alan Pakula), killed Karyn. Karyn's niece Kari Kriser said so on a radio show, which I heard.
Karyn's apartment complex (Monterey Apts.) was made up of 2-story buildings. Her place was in the back and David Lange moved in downstairs a very short time before she died. He was an acquaintance of Andrew Prine's and Karyn helped him get the apartment. Lange was dating Natalie Wood, but he was sleeping around a lot. Lange was an alcoholic (as was Natalie). He came home drunk around the time Karyn was murdered, approx. 12:30 am Thanksgiving morning. He told police he collapsed in his bed immediately upon arriving home and slept through the night.
Both he and his sister are deceased.
Kathy C
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Tom, are you saying that Irv Kupcinet had strong connections to the Mob? I know his best friend was Jewish Mob lawyer, Sidney Korshack, who worked from Los Angeles. The mob supposedly asked Irv if he wanted them to send someone to investigate Karyn's murder. He declined.
Kathy C
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Wow! Where did you come from? I didn't know anyone was interested in Karyn Kupcinet. A few things. Possibly, Irv was a part of Operation Mockingbird and was deliberately knocking the movie. But maybe there was another motive. The original screenplay had Karyn Kupcinet as a character. They decided to use Rose Charamie.
I believe Karyn was killed in Hollywood by the Chicago mob who didn't want the Ruby connection to them to come out. It was a shock crime, mostly for Chicago. Everyone knew her. This took Irv off the scent big time. His best friend was Sidney Korschak, mob lawyer operating out of Los Angeles. He met Irv at the airport and also identified the body for Irv.
Who cared about the Kennedy Assassination now?
Researcher Greg Parker figured out about the Oxnard call. It was not Karyn Kupcinet but a Rosicrucian ritual performed using the phone, called radionics. The woman was not upset, but they heard her incantations (operators). Some 20 minutes later Kennedy was shot. The phone company called the FBI. Sirhan Sirhan was also a Rosicrucian.
Karyn spent the Assassination weekend in Palm Springs with Andy Prine, Earl Holliman and, although she denies it, I have a picture of actress Lynn Loring. This was supposedly taken at Palm Springs the Kennedy weekend. I will search my files for more info. Possibly this was the last photo taken of Karyn.
The family believed it was David Lange, an alcoholic dating Natalie Wood. No proof though. They did find 2 sets of prints not belonging to anyone known. I wonder if today they could put them in a computer and come out with a match.
I have some blogs (not up now) about Karyn Kupcinet. When I can, I will send them to you if you're interested.
Kathy C
PS mobster Paul Dorfman was in Palm Springs that same weekend. Irv Kupcinet found him there. Karyn was there. The plot to kill Karyn may have formulated in Dorfman's mind there.
Jack Ruby was known in Dallas as somebody who hung out at the newspaper offices and police station, wanting to be where the action was. In Chicago Irv Kupcinet was already working for the Chicago Times (later Chicago Sun-Times) with his own column. He joined the paper as a columnist in 1943. He met Ruby in the late '40's. My question is: Was Ruby as nosy in Chicago as he later was in Dallas? Was he hanging around the paper a lot? (The one with Irv Kupcinet.) This would indicate that Irv knew Ruby in some capacity years earlier, more than he admitted.I don't believe Ruby killed Karyn. But I believe there's a possibility that Paul Dorfman did, via a hit man. The purpose was to shock Chicago and get the Chicago mob out of the headlines. They did not want to be connected to Kennedy's murder. They also, I would bet, kidnapped Frank Sinatra Jr a few weeks later, again to distract people and maybe make Sinatra Sr squirm a bit. After all, who did more to get Kennedy elected than Frank Sinatra? He really stuck his neck out and Bobby Kennedy sliced off his head. Instead of staying at Sinatra's guest house with Marilyn Monroe, he stayed at Republican Catholic hypocrite Bing Crosby's guest house with Monroe. What a kick in the face for Frank Sinatra.
And then, balm to America's wounds, the Beatles came over. The assassination took a back seat to them.
Tom, what are you trying to say in your post? Could you spell it out for me?
The family believed it was David Lange, an alcoholic dating Natalie Wood. No proof though. They did find 2 sets of prints not belonging to anyone known. I wonder if today they could put them in a computer and come out with a match.
I have some blogs (not up now) about Karyn Kupcinet. When I can, I will send them to you if you're interested.
Kathy C
PS mobster Paul Dorfman was in Palm Springs that same weekend. Irv Kupcinet found him there. Karyn was there. The plot to kill Karyn may have formulated in Dorfman's mind there.
Sorry about the repitiion in these posts. I don't know how that happened. One was written last night and one today.
Kathy C
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...It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.
In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."
Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.
Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."
Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?
It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.
I find that Irv Kupcinet is at the center of the chain of relationships and acquaintances of many of the people I have researched related to the background of Jack Ruby and to Albert E. Jenner, Jr. As a result, I suspect that he has not received the attention of assassination researchers I would expect someone in his unique position, awareness, and contacts would have received if Penn Jones had not linked the sudden, late November, 1963 death of Kupcinet's daughter, Karyn, with an anonymous, prescient call to a California telephone operator, minutes before JFK was assassinated.
Reading this piece escalated my suspicion that Kupcinet had another agenda having nothing to do with Jones's unsupported claim that Karyn Kupcinet was that anonymous caller who tried to warn that the president was about to be killed.
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/kup-vs-jfk/Content?oid=881114Kup vs. JFK
Chronicle of a Columnist's Obsession
By Jim Kielty
Year In Review archives »
In an essay on the Oliver Stone film JFK, published a month after his laudatory review in the Sun-Times, Roger Ebert wrote: "Never in my years as a newspaperman have I seen one subject pummeled so mercilessly and joylessly as this movie that questions the official wisdom on the assassination of John F. Kennedy."
Ebert didn't have to look far to find the chief Chicago-area pummeler: his Sun-Times colleague Irv Kupcinet has repeatedly used his column to flail JFK, Oliver Stone, and anyone else who has dared to challenge the findings of the Warren Commission report.
Between December 17 of last year, when he first reviewed JFK as the lead item in his column, and May 22 of this year, when the Sun-Times reviewed the home video version (and I stopped counting), Kup ran more than two dozen items on Stone, his film, and other Kennedy assassination subjects. He also called for the opening of sealed government files on the assassination, venturing that the information contained therein will put an end to "far-fetched conspiracy theories," by which he seems to mean anything other than the Warren Commission report.
Let's run the highlights:
December 17, 1991: Kup says JFK may be "the most controversial movie of our day." He reports that Oliver Stone "has come under severe criticism for twisting the story to fit his own theory." He faults Stone for making former New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison the hero of the movie and for claiming the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. were all linked in some conspiracy. "Stone's movie probably will be a box office hit," Kup predicts, "but in reaching a huge audience he owes history some relevance to the truth."
December 19: Kup mentions another assassination film set for release, Ruby, calling it a "powerful role" for star Danny Aiello.
December 22: Kup's Sunday column carries a photo of the now-aged Governor John Connally of Texas with a caption promoting his planned appearance the next day on CBS This Morning, where, Kup says, Connally will "give his opinion of the movie JFK."
December 23: "The new movie JFK was trashed on David Brinkley's ABC Sunday show," Kup reports. "The various theories of a conspiracy in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in the Oliver Stone production were ridiculed by the panelists, as we previously did."
December 24: Kup criticizes the syndicated Geraldo show telecast in Chicago on Channel Nine the day before. The guests on the show, including the supposed mistress of President Lyndon B. Johnson, claimed that LBJ was the "prime mover in the assassination." Calling the show's theme "the nadir of speculation," Kup asks, "wouldn't Bobby Kennedy, then attorney general . . . have exposed such a plot?"
December 25: On his Christmas wish list for assorted celebrities Kup suggests the following: "Oliver Stone--another theory for his collection of astounding assumptions on the assassination of JFK: the butler did it."
Kup then took a vacation and resumed his column on Sunday, January 5. It took him a week to return to the topic of JFK.
January 12: Kup reports that Oliver Stone is coming to Chicago to tape an Oprah Winfrey show. "I trust Oprah will press him on all the criticism of his convoluted conspiracy theory for the assassination."
January 19: In his lead item this Sunday Kup again plays the Bobby card: "The major flaw in all the theories about the JFK assassination, especially those cited in the movie JFK, is failure to mention Bobby Kennedy, then U.S. attorney general with tremendous resources at his demand. Can anybody believe that Bobby, a tenacious prosecutor, wouldn't have taken action to pursue every conspiracy theory to determine if some person(s) other than Lee Harvey Oswald had killed his beloved brother? Doesn't make sense."
January 23: Kup reports that former House speaker Tip O'Neill "became infuriated" during an interview with radio personality Eddie Schwartz when asked about LBJ's alleged involvement in the assassination. "Meanwhile," Kup adds, "the pressure to open all the records, including Warren Commission documents, is gaining momentum. That would help clarify the confusion now rampant."
January 26: Again Kup leads his Sunday column with the assassination: the nation is "going ballistic" over it, he says. Comparing the current hysteria to public reactions to the deaths of Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, and William McKinley, Kup quotes Chicago historian Ralph Newman, who explains that the nation "refuses to accept the logical explanation for the sudden death of a hero."
February 5: Kup plugs Oliver Stone's appearance on Dan Rather's CBS show 48 Hours, which he seems to have previewed. He identifies Rather as a "severe critic" of the film and adds: "One more time: Stone makes one admission in the interview. He did make up some points in the movie. In doing so, he exercised his legitimate license as an artist to tell a story. But Stone insists that did not alter the movie's conclusion that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK."
February 6: A Chicago alderman has asked Mayor Daley to have the Police Department release its files on Jack Ruby, to determine if Ruby had any connection with the assassination. "That, Your Honor, will be a waste of time and money," Kup advises.
Kup goes on in a second paragraph of this column to quote his old pal Elmer Gertz, who worked as an attorney for Jack Ruby and considers any effort to link him to a conspiracy "sheer madness." According to Gertz, Kup reports, Ruby's shooting of Oswald was a "moment of madness . . . by a self-anointed avenger, anothing more." Kup concludes with a quick slap at Geraldo Rivera: "The search of the Ruby files will be as fruitful as Geraldo Rivera's opening of Al Capone's vault."
February 14: Kup notes that Kevin Costner, who plays Jim Garrison in JFK, portrayed a character in an earlier film, Bull Durham, who "believes in the soul, hard liquor and that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone." Kup asks: "Cinema verite?" The column is illustrated by a stock shot of Costner dressed as Eliot Ness in The Untouchables. The caption reads: "Inconsistencies in 'character.'"
February 28: Kup plugs an appearance by former president Gerald Ford, the lone surviving member of the Warren Commission, on the A&E cable show Investigative Reports. Kup says the former president "minces no words in describing the conspiracy theory in the movie 'JFK.' He calls it 'hogwash.' Adds Ford, 'Not one credible piece of evidence has surfaced to convince me that Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the lone assassin.'"
March 15: The lead item in Kup's Sunday column reports on an upcoming appearance in Chicago by Oliver Stone, who is to receive an award as "Director of the Decade" from the Chicago International Film Festival. Kup adds that Stone will join a "panel of authorities" on the JFK assassination.
March 29: One day before the Oscars, Kup allows as how JFK, which is up for a slew of awards, "helped get Congress to pass legislation that would open the files on the assassination." But he adds that "the movie had a lot of help," pointing out that Warner Bros., producers of the film, retained Hill & Knowlton's Frank Mankiewicz, former press secretary to Robert F. Kennedy, "to lobby Congress to take such action."
March 30: Kup takes a pre-Oscar shot at JFK's director: "If Oliver Stone doesn't win an award," he asks, "will he charge conspiracy?"
April 1: Kup's Oscar wrap-up says: "Worst Loser--Oliver Stone, whose 'JFK' failed to score except for two technical awards, was victim of a conspiracy, no doubt. Stone was quoted as blaming the media and gays for denouncing the film."
April 3: Kup reports that Motion Picture Association president Jack Valenti, a former aide to LBJ, "denounced 'JFK' as a 'hoax, a smear and pure fiction.'" Kup explains that Valenti waited until after the Academy Awards to denounce the film so as not to influence the voting. "He was especially upset," Kup claims, "because of his loyalty to his former boss . . . who was implicated in the movie as part of a conspiracy to kill JFK."
In the same column, Kup sneaks in another plug for old friend Elmer Gertz. "'Who Shot JFK?' will be Elmer Gertz's topic at Congregation Kol Ami tonight," Kup reports, adding, "Gertz wrote the definitive biography of Jack Ruby."
April 7: Kup again comes to the defense of the Warren Commission, writing, "Dr. Charles Crenshaw, who waited 29 years to 'reveal' that President JFK was shot by 'bullets in front of his head' as described in his book, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, hereby is awarded the procrastinator medal."
April 15: Kup notes "overwhelming support" to have the government open the files on the assassination of President Kennedy. "But don't expect to see the files shortly," he cautions. "The House appointed a five-member board to review and release all the documents--but it has two years to complete its work."
April 22: Kup again mentions that Oliver Stone is being honored by the Chicago International Film Festival and that Stone "also will join a pre-dinner panel on the JFK assassination."
April 30: Kup criticizes the Justice Department's "surprising opposition to releasing" the Kennedy assassination files, writing that this plays "into the hands of those who insist there was a conspiracy." He then reports that U.S. Representative Henry Hyde wrote to Attorney General William Barr to ask why the government opposed disclosure of the files. Hyde's letter, according to Kup, claims the government's refusal "is supporting the paranoia of Oliver Stone and his conspiracy comrades."
May 21: After three weeks of silence on the issue, Kup notes an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association by the two pathologists who performed the autopsy on the body of President Kennedy. They claim that the bullets that killed the president came from the rear "and confirm the Warren Commission report. That should cause the government to speed up its release of the official reports on the assassination," Kup continues, "and put an end to all those far-fetched conspiracy theories." Kup ends the item by stating: "Some doubters, nevertheless, will continue to hold conspiracy theories, largely because of the movie 'JFK.'"
May 22: Kup reports on Oliver Stone's reaction to the JAMA report, quoting Hollywood columnist Army Archerd as saying that Stone took a "so what?" position. Nevertheless, Kup insists that the claim of the two pathologists "deflates Stone's conspiracy theory that another person was involved." Coincidentally, the home video version of JFK is reviewed in the Sun-Times on this day. The thumbnail critique quotes Roger Ebert's original review, which says the film "convincingly argues the official version of JFK's death is flatly impossible."
What did Kup have against JFK? I asked him recently, and he replied that he thought Stone "went overboard" in tying government agencies to the assassination. He said Jim Garrison, the prosecutor played in the film by Kevin Costner, was "held in low esteem" in New Orleans for his prosecution of Clay Shaw as part of the assassination conspiracy. He felt that if Stone's film went unchallenged, it could give "the wrong impression to young viewers" whose only knowledge of the assassination might come from the film.
But perhaps there's a more personal dimension to Kup's animus. A hint of it surfaces in his column of February 9, which I've held aside from the foregoing chronology. In this Sunday column Kup writes, "The NBC 'Today' show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter."
Calling the inclusion of his daughter "an atrocious outrage," Kup goes on to acknowledge that his daughter died violently in a still unsolved Hollywood murder and that the list including her name was published in a book several years earlier. He denies his daughter had any knowledge of the assassination and says that for the Today show "to repeat the calumny is reprehensible." He concludes by asking the show to "rectify the error."
What exactly had the Today show done? The week of February 3 through 7, Today carried a five-part series entitled "Who Killed JFK?" The last segment included an interview with Oliver Stone conducted by Bryant Gumbel. Immediately after the Stone interview and concluding the five-part series, Gumbel said: "As if JFK's murder weren't enough, consider this: in the first 13 years following the assassination, 37 people with some relation to the case died violently. The odds against that, actuaries say, are higher than 1 in 10,000. We thought showing you who they were, along with how they died, would make an intriguing footnote to our series. They add further mystery to one of the great puzzles of our time." The first name on the list was that of Karyn Kupcinet, preceded by the description, "Murdered--November, 1963."
The book Kup referred to in his February 9 column is Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy, by Jim Marrs. It describes Karyn Kupcinet as a "TV host's daughter who was overheard telling of JFK's death prior to 11/22/63." A similar "mysterious deaths list" was carried in another book on the assassination, High Treason: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy and the New Evidence of Conspiracy by Robert Groden and Harrison Livingstone. These authors refer to Karyn as a "daughter of a childhood friend of Ruby. . . . She was murdered two days after Kennedy. She had foreknowledge of the assassination and was overheard by a telephone operator talking about it." (In his autobiography Kup says he knew Ruby "when he was a one-time organizer for the Waste and Material Handlers Union.")
Asked if there might be some connection, conscious or otherwise, between his attitude toward assassination conspiracy theories and the fact that his daughter's name has been dragged into them, Kup said the insinuations about his daughter are as outlandish as the theories. He said there is no connection whatsoever.
These are just a small sample of the Kupcinet background I think have been sorely overlooked because of Penn Jones's comparatively unsubstantiated distractions, linking Karyn Kupcinet to an anonymous phone call.:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/11/us/irv-kupcinet-91-dies-chronicled-chicago-for-60-years.htmlIrv Kupcinet, 91, Dies; Chronicled Chicago for 60 Years
By RICHARD SEVERO Published: November 11, 2003
..He believed that each column should end with a dash of humor, but he never thought of himself as a humorist. So he welcomed the participation of ''amateur quipsters.'' One such source was known as Ivan Bunny, but Bunny's offerings were actually the work of two brothers, Jimmy and Ivan Colitz, the latter an auto parts supervisor....
...When Bugsy Siegel was shot to death in the Beverly Hills mansion of his girlfriend, Virginia Hill, in 1947, a True magazine reporter named Mike Stern called Kup. Hill had been hiding out, and Stern had heard she was living on money funneled to her by a local Mob bookkeeper. Stern guessed correctly that Kup might know him.
Kup arranged a dinner at the Blackstone Hotel, and the bookkeeper mentioned in passing that Hill was staying in a small town in Montana. Stern found her and got his scoop. Why didn't the mobsters retaliate against Kup? Stern, now 93, says they liked him. And by then he was too powerful to harm...
The Outfit: The Role of Chicago's Underworld in the Shaping of ... - Page 153
Gus Russo - 2003 - 496 pages - Preview
...Hill had seen how many gamblers were pawning off their wives' furs to her real Chicago love, gambling boss Ira Colitz. Hill convinced Colitz to convert his North Clark Street Clover Bar backroom into a walk-in cooler to store furs that Hill in turn sold to her uptown pals; Hill also occasionally trafficked in hot diamonds acquired in the same manner...
File Tax Lien Here Against Virginia Hill
- Chicago Tribune - Jul 10, 1951
Epstein, who, Mrs. Hauser tes. tified, lived at 25 E. Delaware pl. and spent much of his in the Clover Bar, 172 N. Clark st., could not be (found in either...
JOSEPH EPSTEIN ELUSIVE DESPITE VIRGINIA'S TIPS
- Chicago Tribune - Mar 16, 1951
Virginia whose last name has been Hauser since a recent mar riage said she had contacted Ep stein at the Cloverbar a cocktail lounge at 172 N Clark st and ...
Chicago Sun-Times: KUP'S COLUMN
- Chicago Sun-Times - May 2, 1986
AVENUE M magazine in its first issue under new publisher Frank Sullivan features a fascinating yarn about Humphrey Bogart and Ira Colitz man about town and County Board President George Dunne's nightly dinner companion The story tells how Colitz then a World War II GI stationed on the West Coast was in the arms of lovely damsel when Bogart knocked on the door Bogie and Ira thereafter became dear friends And Colitz still is trying to find that girl..
Chicago Sun-Times: Merry Christmas to all of you who made...
- Chicago Sun-Times - Dec 22, 1988
To George Dunne Ira Colitz Jesse White and his CabriniGreen tumblers Mr and Mrs Ben Segal and son Mike the tycoon To Edgar Shane the kind of precinct...
Chicago Sun-Times: Segal's courtship of powerful friends...
- Chicago Sun-Times - Jan 29, 2002
Michael Segal built Near North Insurance from a few filing drawers in George Dunne's living room to one of the largest independent brokerage firms in the... learned from his father, Ben, who owned a furrier at Water Tower Place, ...
IRA COLITZ, INSURANCE EXEC, 42ND WARD OPERATIVE
- Chicago Tribune - Jan 26, 1998
A native of Chicago's West Side Mr Colitz worked for 25 years at Near North Insurance Agency most recently as an executive vice president and he served as a...In 1974 Mr Colitz was indicted on federal charges of extorting money from a furniture company for a favorable zoning change He was acquitted a year later..
Near North Insurance Brokerage Exec Charged with $20M In...
Insurance Journal - Jan 31, 2002
According to the Chicago Tribune, Michael Segal, CEO of Near North Insurance ... If convicted, Segal could face up to 25 years in prison for insurance and ...
Segal gets rebuke, 10 years ; Judge sees 'dark side' to...
- Chicago Tribune - Dec 1, 2005
Insurance powerhouse Michael Segal, whose personal empire included a Gold Coast ... And although Segal's company, Near North Insurance Brokerage, ...
Chicago Sun-Times : Segal gets 10 yrs.... - Chicago Sun-Times
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK - Page 179by Peter Dale Scott - History - 1996
"....Blakey chose to link Rosselli to Trafficante, by citing his "management role" in
the Havana Sans Souci casino. More pertinent was probably the fact that the Sans Scouci was operated, at this time, by Dave Yaras and Lenny Patrick, the suspected killers of James Ragen (9 AH 948). Also at this time, Rosselli's most constant companion was "Major" Charkes "Babe" Baron, a suspected murderer who was also a brigadier-general in the Illinois National Guard. Baron was a protege of Chicago Democratic machine leader Jake Arvey, as were Yaras and Patrick; and an even closer friend of Patrick Hoy, the Henry Crown employee at General Dynamics who arranged for Sidney Korshak to work for Hilton Hotels. Hoy was also the general manager of the Sherman Hotel in Chicago, a hangout frequented ny Ruby and Jones in 1947 (22 WH 366; 24 WH 518 Chicago crime commission, report, 1963)"
"Back in 1958, when Queen Elizabeth II dropped in to the Pump Room and its ... Then they shipped the 'throne' off to hotelier Pat Hoy's farm,...
http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=hoy+know+nothing+about+mixing+concrete&btnG=Search+Books
Kup's Chicago - Page 53
by Irv Kupcinet - Chicago (Ill.) - 1962 - 286 pages
"But I'm a hotelman," Hoy protested. "I know nothing about mixing concrete." "Maybe not," said Crown. "But without being a cook you've done an excellent job of running the Pump Room." Yielding to Crown's persuasion, Hoy began a new career at the age of.....
...I feel honored that I had the chance to become friends with Kupcinet late in his career, after I joined the Chicago Headline Club. And when I'd visit him at the apartment home he shared in downtown Chicago with his beloved wife Essie, who died in 2001, he loved to point out he had the original Pump Room Booth One in his home...
....Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1289 - FBI report dated June 5 ...
- Dec 25
File
of Ivan Bunny which appears frequently in Irv Kupcinet's column... JACK L .
RUBY. IIe bought the Clover Bar next to the Sherman Hotel on Clark.
Street after selling the Realto .... group of Jewish people which
included Ruby, Colitz and their ...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1289.pdf
Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1236 - FBI report of interview ...
Union Local 20467,. AFL, is quoted in IRV KUPCINET's. column
"Chicago ... COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 1235. 2. On November 25, 1963,
mini, 74PR II : ...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1236.pdf
Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1199 - FBI report dated ...
- 12/27/08
Commission, IRA COLT= owner of the Clover Bar, and LOUIS. SCHNITZ were friends of RUBY. ... RUBY was at the Clover Bar about five years ago . RUBY at the ...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1199.pdf
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/20th_Issue/arrb_13.htmlARRB 13th Batch
The Federal Register February 20,1996 p. 6346-6347
Reviewed by Joseph Backes
FBI Documents: Open in Full
...Document # 124-10068-10016 Is a two page document from SAC, Denver to Director dated 11/25/63.
DN [ ]-C frequented Clover Bar next door to Sherman Hotel, Chicago, Illinois, 1946 to 1949. He described this bar as a hangout for hoodlum element. At that time it was operated by Ira Colitz who was described as a personal friend of Colonel Jacob Arvey, well known Chicago political figure. Colitz possibly was recently a candidate for Alderman in Chicago and resides in penthouse apartment on Michigan Boulevard.
Informant related Jack Ruby, whom he identified from Newspaper photographs, frequented Clover bar in about 1946 or 47 and was an acquaintance of Ira Colitz and possibly was a former school mate of Colitz on the West Side of Chicago. He does not know nature of Ruby's activities in Chicago.
Wow! Where did you come from? I didn't know anyone was interested in Karyn Kupcinet. A few things. Possibly, Irv was a part of Operation Mockingbird and was deliberately knocking the movie. But maybe there was another motive. The original screenplay had Karyn Kupcinet as a character. They decided to use Rose Charamie.
I believe Karyn was killed in Hollywood by the Chicago mob who didn't want the Ruby connection to them to come out. It was a shock crime, mostly for Chicago. Everyone knew her. This took Irv off the scent big time. His best friend was Sidney Korschak, mob lawyer operating out of Los Angeles. He met Irv at the airport and also identified the body for Irv.
Who cared about the Kennedy Assassination now?
Researcher Greg Parker figured out about the Oxnard call. It was not Karyn Kupcinet but a Rosicrucian ritual performed using the phone, called radionics. The woman was not upset, but they heard her incantations (operators). Some 20 minutes later Kennedy was shot. The phone company called the FBI. Sirhan Sirhan was also a Rosicrucian.
Karyn spent the Assassination weekend in Palm Springs with Andy Prine, Earl Holliman and, although she denies it, I have a picture and date, actress Lynn Loring.
The family believed it was David Lange, an alcoholic dating Natalie Wood. No proof. They did find 2 sets of prints not belonging to anyone known. I wonder if today they could put them in a computer and come out with a match.
I have some blogs (not up now) about Karyn Kupcinet. When I can, I will send them to you if you're interested.
Kathy C
PS mobster Paul Dorfman was in Palm Springs that same weekend. Irv Kupcinet found him there. Karyn was there. The plot to kill Karyn may have formulated in Dorfman's mind there.
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I have the highest respect for William Reymond and the late Rich DellaRosa. I believe they saw a filmas they described and I cannot conceive that someone could have "added" to the film so I believe their accounts are truthful. I have another first hand account from an officer in the motorcade who saw the limo stop. I do not believe he has been named before.
Doug Weldon
Yes. The Limo came to a STOP. Read this: The limo came to a STOP. A clean, shiny trunk and no limo stop? Baloney.
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Vidal was a relative by marriage.
I’ll give you the slow-learner version Hugh D. Auchincloss Jr. was Vidal’s step-father 1935 – 41 and Jackie’s step father 1942 – 79. They probably only knew each other vaguely if at all. There is no reason to assume he has some sort of special insight in to how the father-in-law of his ex-stepfather’s step-daughter made his fortune in the 1920’s.
Len, I know a lot about Gore Vidal. Gore and Jackie were step-siblings once removed. They were at the home at different times and were friendly. She used to wear his plaid shirts for warmth sometimes. Gore Vidal admired her very much. He wrote after she died how intelligent she was and possessed with a profound acerbic wit. He never said anything about her when she was alive, as far as I know.
The trouble started when the Kennedys gave a dinner in the White House. Jackie was in a room with several people. There was nowhere to sit. He squatted down by her and kept his balance by resting his hand on Jackie's shoulder next to him. They started talking. Whoever was on her other side spoke to her. Suddenly his hand was knocked off Jackie's shoulder. It was Bobby Kennedy. Gore ignored him. Again Jackie turned to him and the person on her other side engaged her attention. Again Bobby Kennedy knocked Vidal's hand off Jackie's shoulder. Kennedy walked out of the room. Vidal stormed out after him. He closed the door behind him and other doors were closed. He said, "Don't you ever do that again." To which Kennedy replied, "F--- off, Buddy Boy." To which one of America's man of letters heard himself say, "You f--- off." [i had to clean up the language for Kathy Beckett's sake.]
When this party was over, Jackie never spoke to him again. And I think that's tragic. Rumors began circulating that Gore Vidal got drunk at the party, disgraced himself -- and by the early '70's Truman Capote had him physically picked up by Secret Service men and placed onto Pennsylvania Ave. This, of course, was not true. But the story always remained that he got drunk at the White House party and caused trouble.
In later years a reporter asked Lee Radziwell (Jackie's sister) about the Gore Vidal and Truman Capote feud. "Oh, everyone knows they're both fags," she said. This almost killed Capote. He had done so much for Lee Radziwell so she could be something by herself. I believe this took place after Capote published several chapters of a new book (never finished) in Esquire: "La Cote Basque," I think. None of his high society friends, except Joann Carson, ever spoke to him again, as it was so obviously about them.
Anyway, Gore Vidal and Jackie Kennedy ("two of the coolest people of our generation") got onto an elevator together in NY. Neither one of them knew where to look. They just wouldn't talk. She got off first and said in her Monroe-ish voice, tinged with sarcasm, "Bye."
Kathy C
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The History Channel is all about UFOs and Nazis. They even had a show called "Nazi UFOs." And don't forget the Nostradamous marathons.
Kathy C
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Sonny Bono, whom I now think was murdered, was a Republican Congressman. There was a man named Ted Gunderson who was going to look into this. He said the autopsy was not indicative of hitting a tree while skiing. His head was blugeoned.
I thought of this today: Sonny was a Republican and was from California. I wonder if he was ever invited to Bohemian Grove? Who would know? But he's gone and he had a lot to tell us about this govt.
Kathy C
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Just like to ask forum members if any have collected any information on Oswald's radio that they would be willing to share here?
Not sure where I am going with this but perhaps some of you have looked into the radio which Oswald owned and brought back to the USA from Russia.
This is going to sound far-fetched. On the day of the Assassination, a woman got on an Oxnard operator's line. When the operator tried to talk to her, she said, "I'm just using the phone." Another operator heard her recite numbers and make statements that Kennedy was going to be killed at 10:10 am and there were going to be fires in the buildings of Washington D.C. The operators and their supervisor looked at the clock: It was 10:07 am PT [from memory]. Kennedy was shot at 10:30 am PT. The motorcade was late due to crowds at Love Field.
Researcher Greg Parker delved into this and decided that the woman was using a psychic method of bringing things about, called radionics. Apparently, she was doing a Rosicrucian rite. She wasn't upset. She was doing incantations.
I also recall that Mr. Parker said Sirhan Sirhan was a Rosicrucian. He was probably brain-washed.
Regarding Oswald's radio, Mr. Parker mentioned interest in it. The Rosicrucians' headquarters was in California.
Kathy C
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Thank you for publishing this. And I thank you for mentioning Cardinal Spellman, that little, obnoxious b______d.
Kathy C
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The footage of Sonny at the Waco hearings is in the very watchable documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagement.
The icing on the cake of the film's presentation is Sonny, watching in open-mouthed indignation from the gallery while Sen. Charles Schumer of New York pours out a dumbfounding spiel of lies and hypocrisy on the government's handling of the assault. It's an image of politics as corrupt as any fictional drama could portray it.
The film also features the very rich guy who invented infra-red imaging for the government, showing every point in the surveillance footage where the government lied about its actions during the siege.
BTW, people who like well-made documentaries like this should look up The Panama Deception, narrated by Elizabeth Montgomery, a deliberate and careful film on the invasion.
I just watched several congressional speeches by Sonny Bono. I also watched the one where his wife is ill -- this occurred when he was running for Mayor of Palm Springs (which he won). All this footage is on youtube.
So I have to change my opinion which I stated on thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com When Sonny was in Congress giving speeches, to me he came across drugged -- and I believe he was a manic-depressive as well. And I now believe he would have mood swings and his wife was on a roller-coaster with him. So what she said about him 8 months later were true. But why did she have to tell people?
Kathy C
I watched Waco: Rules of Engagement. You only get a glimpse of Sonny Bono wiping tears from his eyes. There's footage where Sonny is a Congressman and he's grilling Janet Reno (whom I despise).
But I found another Sonny appearance as I stated above. This one is something! I put it on thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Does a man like that, who is so heavily on pills, go skiing on a many-tree-d slope by himself? I don't know who would want to ski that slope. Is this the first time we've heard of skiing assassins?! Maybe Sonny was lured there.
In the footage, Sonny doesn't seem professional, but crazy or drunk.
Kathy C
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The footage of Sonny at the Waco hearings is in the very watchable documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagement.
The icing on the cake of the film's presentation is Sonny, watching in open-mouthed indignation from the gallery while Sen. Charles Schumer of New York pours out a dumbfounding spiel of lies and hypocrisy on the government's handling of the assault. It's an image of politics as corrupt as any fictional drama could portray it.
The film also features the very rich guy who invented infra-red imaging for the government, showing every point in the surveillance footage where the government lied about its actions during the siege.
BTW, people who like well-made documentaries like this should look up The Panama Deception, narrated by Elizabeth Montgomery, a deliberate and careful film on the invasion.
I just watched several congressional speeches by Sonny Bono. I also watched the one where his wife is ill -- this occurred when he was running for Mayor of Palm Springs (which he won). All this footage is on youtube.
So I have to change my opinion which I stated on thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com When Sonny was in Congress giving speeches, to me he came across drugged -- and I believe he was a manic-depressive as well. And I now believe he would have mood swings and his wife was on a roller-coaster with him. So what she said about him 8 months later were true. But why did she have to tell people?
Kathy C
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I agree.
(if only s/he had been standing on the X)
I enjoyed the panarama of Dealey Plaza. I, too, wondered about the X on the ground -- I couldn't see it. Maybe it's not there anymore. I read a long time ago that the X wasn't accurate.
I still feel that "Google Earth Street View" shows the corners and secret areas etc of Dealey Plaza better. When you get the application up, type in either "Dealey Plaza, Dallas, TX" or try "Elm St and Houston St, Dallas, TX." Trace the route to Parkland Hospital. Get a closer look of the Grassy Knoll. Even the 6th Fl webcam doesn't show the Grassy Knoll.
But, thanks, Bill. It sure made Elm St look like a long, long road.
Kathy C
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I don't know if this question is appropriate to this thread. If it isn't I'm sorry.
There's been a film on youtube.com about the Moon landing. This film says that Richard Nixon asked NASA to go to the moon in 1969 and they told him they could not yet. The main problem was the Van Allen Radiation Belts. Nixon then asked the director of 2001, A Space Odyssey, to fake a moon landing, as the people in the US had suffered so much through the sixties and needed something to be proud of. Also Kennedy had predicted that we'd be on the moon by the end of the decade.
This director, Stanley Kubrik of England, agreed to creating footage of the men on the moon -- in the studio. In their training we've seen how astronauts could hang in air inside their ship because of no gravity. Yet the 2 men who landed on the moon weren't reacting to gravity, as anyone can see. Outside the space module, they were jumping! You can see a cord on one of their shoulders as they pretended to be affected by gravity. Michael Collins remained inside the vehicle. When they went through a long debriefing after arriving home, they held a press conference. Michael Collins blurted, "You could see how many times I tripped over the TV cables." Buzz Aldrin then mentioned they had a "scientific camera" to try to cover Collins' gaffe. It was the most dismal conference.
So what I mean to ask: Did we land on the moon in July 20,1969 or no? Was it coincidence that Chappaquiddick occurred 2 days earlier?
Kathy C
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Hi. I've been away from the Forum for awhile, so forgive me if it was brought up in this huge thread. One of the things on 9/11 that was puzzling was the report that there were no Arabic names on the manifest. I wonder if Jewish names were.
Then, America's own cognitive dissonance: Believing 2 planes flew into the WTC and a missile into the Pentagon and a plane shot down in Pennsylvania. I believe the first "plane" was actually a missile. The second plane was a cargo plane with no windows. A missile flew into the Pentagon and I don't know what happened in PA as there was only a puff of smoke and a sort of V shape in the ground. It looked like household garbage was thrown in the hole.
What really happened to the people on the real planes? One theory was that these passengers were put on another plane in the midwest and flown over the Atlantic and this plane dove into the ocean. But who was flying the plane? I believe America has the power to remotely fly planes. Do you agree Prof. Fetzer?
Kathy C
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There is more to Sonny Bono's death. He was informed of high govt officials who were involved in a drugs and guns cartel. He was going to expose them when Congress reconvened.
There is more to this story. Someone here will say what does this have to do with the Kennedy Assasssination. It's the possible murder of an elected official, a Republican Congressman who was devoted to his job. To read more go to:
thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com Sonny Bono - Accident or Murder?
I have a new blog:
whatpricefame.blogspot.com Gossip and Scandals of the Rich and Famous
Just thought I'd mention it.
Kathy C
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I want Joan Crawford to clean my house, I have 100s of wire hangers
If Joan Crawford cleaned my house, she'd be alive for another year. Remember: "I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at the dirt."
She was nuts.
Kathy C
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I found these articles while I was looking for a Nixon/Crawford in Dallas mention. It's from a Joan Crawford site, The Best of Everything. They flew in together on Pepsico's plane. But I wondered about how they left. When Crawford was asked about the decor and culture Jackie Kennedy was bringing to the White House, Joan said she didn't talk politics or religion.
Below find the articles about Joan and Nixon. I recall the photograph of Nixon sitting in an airport that day and he truly looked sad. I think he was a sentimental man, ut there was nothing he could do to stop the Assassination, unless he himself was killed or his family or his dog, Checkers. Possibly he took a few drinks and possibly Crawford did too as she was an alcoholic. But when did Joan go home?
DALLAS MORNING NEWS
3 articles around the time of the Kennedy assassination
Action Keys to Daily Life of Joan Crawford
By Tony Zoppi
November 22, 1963
“I must keep active,” said Joan Crawford, and that just about summed up the theme of Thursday morning’s interview with filmland’s glamour queen.
“I get up around 6 in the morning and plan my day – mentally and spiritually. I never rush. Getting an early start enables me to do things in detail. I do my best work before 9 a.m. with the help of three secretaries.”
Well into her 50s, Miss Crawford has the energy of an ingénue.
Keeping “active” involves such diversified tasks as movie-making, a new TV pilot with Charles Bickford (the most expensive pilot in the history of the medium), a place on the board of the Pepsi-Cola Corp. and numerous charities.
“There is no such thing as an ordinary day for me,” she cooed. “An ordinary day would bore me to death.”
Miss Crawford is in town for a Pepsi meeting. She flew in Wednesday night, aboard a company plane whose passenger list included former vice-president Richard Nixon. He is now legal counsel for Pepsi-Cola. "No, I don’t think either of us will attend the luncheon here for President Kennedy,” she smiled.
The chic star said she will be back in Dallas in January to help promote her new film, which is entitled “Strait-Jacket.” It’s her first since “What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?” the fantastically successful thriller which revived her Hollywood career.
In a reminiscent mood, she said Clark Gable was her favorite leading man.
“The King was the greatest,” she smiled. “I’m so sorry I never had the opportunity to work with Cary Grant or Gregory Peck or some of the others. They are fine actors.”
The future never loosed brighter for the glamorous beauty who was born in San Antonio.
“They want me to do a picture called ‘What Ever Happened to Cousin Charlotte?’ and there’s the TV thing and this divine job with Pepsi-Cola. I owe my success to my training in films. Hollywood educated me in so many ways – it was the only education I had.”
Asked to comment on the new cultural look at the White House, the interview took a curt tone.
“Although I’ve known Jack Kennedy for years, I never discuss religion or politics in public.”
The onetime hoofer who became an intimate of royalty and politicians had one parting word of advice for youngsters in search of a break.
“Nothing comes easy,” she declared. “Work at your trade and give your best. I still do my exercises and design my own clothes. I knew many women who weren’t overly endowed with intelligence, but they looked so good they were able to get by.
"And one more piece of advice to women – quit talking and learn to listen.
“Now, let’s all have a Pepsi.”
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Guard Not for Nixon
November 22, 1963
A Dallas police officer guarded the Baker Hotel suite of actress Joan Crawford Thursday.
But there were no police outside the suite of former Vice-President Richard Nixon, who almost became president, on the same floor of the downtown hotel.
Both flew here for a meeting of Pepsi-Cola bottlers and a spokesman for the firm explained why it had requested a police guard for Miss Crawford’s suite:
“There have been a lot of jewel thefts in New York hotels and we didn’t want to take the chance of having her jewelry stolen here. There was also the matter of autograph seekers.”
Nixon apparently felt that he didn’t need a special officer to protect him from jewel thieves or autograph hunters.
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"Dallas After Dark" column
by Tony Zoppi
November 25, 1963
Less than 24 hours before President Kennedy’s arrival in Dallas, Joan Crawford was telling a group of newspapermen of a meeting with the chief executive in his White House offices.
“I’d known Jack Kennedy for years, and that’s why I couldn’t imagine why my knees kept trembling when I approached his desk," she said. “It was the magnitude of his office, and the position he holds, I guess. But he had a gift for putting people at ease. There were several other people in the office, but he came around his desk and said ‘I want to see Joan.’”
There are dozens of similar stories concerning the late President and show business personalities. He and Mrs. Kennedy were true patrons of the arts. It had been decades since people in every phase of show business had been so welcomed at the White House, and they cherished that call from Washington to “come to dinner and entertain.”
IT STARTED that memorable night of the inaugural when Frank Sinatra put on a show in a drafty Washington armory. He lined up a show of stars which was probably unprecedented in the history of the trade. Everyone cooperated but the weatherman, and the affair was a dismal flop.
Yet it set a sort of precedent and the First Family took show business to its heart and elevated its image to a place of unprecedented respect in cultural circles.
Carol Channing was one of Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy’s favorites, and she spent several evenings at the White House doing her zany portrayal of that calculatin’ gal from Little Rock.
When his travels took him to the West Coast, the President passed up the lavish suites at various hotels in favor of Bing Crosby’s comfortable digs in Palm Springs. The secret service crowd occupied songwriter Jimmy Van Heusen’s home next door.
THE INVITATION LIST knew no bounds. The Kennedys’ taste in entertainment ranged far and wide. Those who entertained represented every facet of show business—from Pablo Casals to Louis Armstrong.
The first family loved the theater and many times, during visits to New York, they viewed Broadway on the spur of the moment to take in a current hit.
The president’s association with show folk came naturally. His father once headed a major Hollywood studio, and there is hardly a star in filmland who doesn’t know and respect Joe Kennedy.
Bob Hope will have occasion to remember his frequent visits to the White House. His last time there, JFK awarded him a special congressional medal in recognition of Hope’s wide travels to entertain American troops. It was typical of the President that he flew in Hope’s wife and children for the occasion.
BOB MAKES no secret of Republican leanings, but he admired and respected Mr. Kennedy.
“He could take a joke. and you can’t say that for too many peopIe in Washington,” said Hope.
Night club comics got a lot of mileage out of their devastating impersonations of the President’s Harvard-accented broad-A. One literally made a fortune with a satirical album entitled “The First Family.” It was a best-seller at the White House.
Kathleen Collins
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How do I use the "Comment as" box in your blog replies? It doesn't like my name or my e-mail address.
As it stands now, anyone can post a comment. Anything objectional I will erase. There's no registering or login at this time. I hate going on new websites. You have to create a User ID and make up a password -- everywhere you go!
So mine's open for now. Click on "comment" underneath the post. A window opens with a message box. You type in, then click on save (I think.) The comments will not appear on the blog unfortunately. You have to click on Comment.
Kathy C
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How do I use the "Comment as" box in your blog replies? It doesn't like my name or my e-mail address.
I will check this out immediately. There are some bugs that have to be worked out. I'm still "building" it. Bascally it's about celebs in trouble. Subject matter you'd find in Vanity Fairbecause they publish some well-written juicy items. Crimes of the rich and famous.
Kathy C
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I just wanted to say quickly -- I have a new blog. The address is:
http://whatpricefame.blogspot.com
I don't think I'll bring Kennedy onto it or Karyn Kupcinet. It's about show business celebrities, mostly the 1950's and 60's.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Collins
Kathleen,
Perhaps you can help answer a question that's always interested me.
Since Joe Kennedy, Sr., Howard Hughes and Johnny Rosselli were all considered to be Hollywood Movie producers at sometime, I was wondering what films they produced.
Who did the Rat Pack movies like Sgts Three (Wild West Gunga Din) and MM's films?
Do you have any idea?
Thanks,
Bill Kelly
Joe Kennedy went into Movies, but all I can remember is that he had something to do with Gloria Swanson's silent movies. And then he dropped Hollywood.
Howard Huges was known more for discovering talent, namely women, such as Jean Harlow and Jane Russell. I believe Harlow was in "Wings," which, I believe, won the first Oscar. He also had a hand in TV. According to his biographer, he spoke to a higher up from ABC because he was watching "The Dating Game" and a dark-skinned girl was paired with a white boy. When I say dark skin, I usually mean Spanish or Hawaiian. Hughes said it turned his stomach.
When Dean and Jerry were together, they worked at Paramount. I think they dealt with Hal Wallis, of whom Jerry said, "He had all the humor of a menstrual period." (Jerry's second wife had 4 miscarriages.)
The Rat Pack may have dealt with someone named Brauner.
Kathy C
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I just wanted to say quickly -- I have a new blog. The address is:
http://whatpricefame.blogspot.com
I don't think I'll bring Kennedy onto it or Karyn Kupcinet. It's about show business celebrities, mostly the 1950's and 60's.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Collins
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Can we rule out the thought that the utility of the DPD Oswald as patsy* was that not only had he been sheep-dipped as a Castroite, but that there was a deep-cover identity to be exposed if a two-hemisphere war was wanted?
Can we rule out the idea that the theater arrest was an actual escape rendezvous pre-empted by another group that controlled DPD, a group with perhaps a different relation to the assassination than we suppose?
Is it possible that some of the antipathy Americans felt upon seeing photos and film of "Oswald" was an aversion to eastern looks and perceived foreign mannerisms? Did he seem, uncomfortably, to be even more of an "enemy within" than eventually was vouched for?** Are there deeper reasons for that Mona Lisa smirk, beyond his US intel connections?
Was he JFK's enemy? It's useful to consider a KGB Oswald in relation to Richard C. Nagell's perceptions of Oswald in the Dick Russell's book, and in relation to any evidence of "Oswald" warning the FBI or other intel org in advance of Dallas.
*Patsy is still the word, despite Liddy's statement that KGB was on the knoll.
**Is typological examination part of the consideration of the photographic record?
I watched the interview with Frank Sturgis. Wasn't he in Dealey Plaza that day? He claims that the man killed by Ruby was a Russian lookalike and that when Ruby killed him, they switched his body with the real Oswald's. So in other words, they also killed the real Oswald.
I've seen autopsy photos of Oswald and Funeral Home photos. The man in the coffin, when viewed from a different angle, had a black eye, which they tried to disguise. So Rich D. proved to me that the man in the coffin was the man killed by Ruby.
Now there's a body switch? The man in Oswald's grave is the real LHO and that's why the mother and the brother were really crying. Their son and brother was truly dead.
I agree that Ruby killed a Russian agent. He never looked to me like an American, or spoke like one.
I may be getting Frank Sturgis confused. Was he the first tramp? Was he the man who killed his parents in another state? Or was he on Houston St.? I will google him. He said that Castro, the KGB and American Intelligence killed Kennedy. And that Johnson and Hoover were very much afraid this would lead to a nuclear war if the public found out. (Can you picture Johnson telling Kennedy's Joint Chiefs of Staff not to go after Cuba? Kennedy was so afraid of them, he thought they would send a nuclear missile without telling him first.) So, according to Sturgis, they used Oswald to pacify the nation.
Does anyone know how the real LHO died? And where did Russian Oswald's body go? I just wanted to know more about this and was surprised that no one seemed to be interested.
Well, this will bring it to the top.
Kathy C
I found the following on this forum:
"In 1956 Sturgis moved to Cuba. He also spent time in Mexico, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Panama and Honduras. In 1958 he made contact with the Central Intelligence Agency at the US Consulate in Santiago. Over the next few years he worked as an undercover agent for the agency. His control officer was Sam Jenis."
Does anyone recall the Cuban guard present when John Lennon was killed? Wasn't his real name San Jenis, aka, Jose Perdomo?
Kathy C
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Can we rule out the thought that the utility of the DPD Oswald as patsy* was that not only had he been sheep-dipped as a Castroite, but that there was a deep-cover identity to be exposed if a two-hemisphere war was wanted?
Can we rule out the idea that the theater arrest was an actual escape rendezvous pre-empted by another group that controlled DPD, a group with perhaps a different relation to the assassination than we suppose?
Is it possible that some of the antipathy Americans felt upon seeing photos and film of "Oswald" was an aversion to eastern looks and perceived foreign mannerisms? Did he seem, uncomfortably, to be even more of an "enemy within" than eventually was vouched for?** Are there deeper reasons for that Mona Lisa smirk, beyond his US intel connections?
Was he JFK's enemy? It's useful to consider a KGB Oswald in relation to Richard C. Nagell's perceptions of Oswald in the Dick Russell's book, and in relation to any evidence of "Oswald" warning the FBI or other intel org in advance of Dallas.
*Patsy is still the word, despite Liddy's statement that KGB was on the knoll.
**Is typological examination part of the consideration of the photographic record?
I watched the interview with Frank Sturgis. Wasn't he in Dealey Plaza that day? He claims that the man killed by Ruby was a Russian lookalike and that when Ruby killed him, they switched his body with the real Oswald's. So in other words, they also killed the real Oswald.
I've seen autopsy photos of Oswald and Funeral Home photos. The man in the coffin, when viewed from a different angle, had a black eye, which they tried to disguise. So Rich D. proved to me that the man in the coffin was the man killed by Ruby.
Now there's a body switch? The man in Oswald's grave is the real LHO and that's why the mother and the brother were really crying. Their son and brother was truly dead.
I agree that Ruby killed a Russian agent. He never looked to me like an American, or spoke like one.
I may be getting Frank Sturgis confused. Was he the first tramp? Was he the man who killed his parents in another state? Or was he on Houston St.? I will google him. He said that Castro, the KGB and American Intelligence killed Kennedy. And that Johnson and Hoover were very much afraid this would lead to a nuclear war if the public found out. (Can you picture Johnson telling Kennedy's Joint Chiefs of Staff not to go after Cuba? Kennedy was so afraid of them, he thought they would send a nuclear missile without telling him first.) So, according to Sturgis, they used Oswald to pacify the nation.
Does anyone know how the real LHO died? And where did Russian Oswald's body go? I just wanted to know more about this and was surprised that no one seemed to be interested.
Well, this will bring it to the top.
Kathy C
Deaths of Witnesses
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Some people know that I, Kathleen Collins, wrote that website. Recently, I made a mistake with the template, so I don't think you'll see thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com for some time. I do have the posts. Right now I have a new blog called whatpricefame.blogspot.com. It is not too controversial and I'm accepting ads, but I think the layout is nice. It's about old movie stars, etc.
At one time blogspot sent me a note that they were investigating my blog (cloak of darkness...) for hate messages. I told them everything I wrote there, regarding the subject, came from newspaper accounts on the Internet: Catholic priests molesting little kids. I was taking it verbatim from news sources. I guess that satisfied them.
It is possible that Karyn was killed to shock Chicago and get Ruby and the Chicago Mob out of the papers. Later, Frank Sinatra Jr was kidnapped for ransom. Who helped the most to get Kennedy elected? Frank Sr. I guess they were throwing a scare into him, but it riveted the nation. And then the Beatles came over...
Kathy C