Kathleen Collins

You seem to be unable to grant that the other side is right

ABOUT ANYTHING. The "reading list", for example, turned out to be substantiated

by an actual WARREN COMMISSION DOCUMENT. Do you still insist that Judyth was

wrong about that one, too, just as I am still wrong about the history of medicine?

The problem is Judyth is an expert researcher. Couldn't she have read the WC Document and memorized book titles?

Kathy C

Except, of course, if the participants, such as Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Judyth Vary,

had been told that the subject (who was a prisoner) had "volunteered" for an experiment by

the authority providing the experimental subject, such as Alton Ochsner, then none of those

who actually administered the vaccine would be guilty of anything remotely approximating

murder, in which case our former prosecutor's analysis does not apply.

Hi Jack,

I have a law degree though I do not have a license to practice law. Here is my opinion:

Murder requires a number of elements, all of which must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

It requires the homicide rule that one life must be taken by another. [COMMENT: Here, you apparently believe it to be a person's injection or part of a plan to inject the prisoner]

It requires that there be no valid excuse, justification or accident for the taking.

It requires that the person taking the life have "malice aforethought" or the intent to kill [COMMENT: Intent may be shown by words or by conduct - Where is the evidence of conduct calculated to take a life?]

Can you prove all of this beyond a reasonable doubt? There may be a taking (questionable), but no intent by anyone and instead the strong likelihood of accident. And as for "premeditation," without any proof of murder, there is no need to consider that.

I do not see any prosecutor coming anywhere near the fulfillment of the evidencial requirements.

Dean

JVB admits in participating in a premeditated murder. I am surprised that nobody wants

her brought to justice. Scientific experimentation is no justification for murder.

We have attorneys on the forum. How about a legal opinion?

Jack

If this incident happened as reported, it clearly is a case of MURDER. There is no statute

of limitations on murder. If JVB admits to creating this cancer virus and being a party to

administering it to some poor unfortunate mental patient...IT IS STILL MURDER, PREMEDITATED

MURDER...not a scientific experiment. JVB has CONFESSED to murder and gone unprosecuted.

Am I the only one who finds this extraordinary?

Jack

Dean:

I have both prosecuted and defended murders. If the person was injected with a substance that could foreseeably result in the death of that person then all people who participated in the process leading to the injection and knew that it would be injected into someone would be principals in the crime and intent could be implied and even first degree (premeditated) murder could be found. It would be if you started firing a machine gun into a crowd of people and afterwards saying you didn't mean to kill anyone. Even a reckless act without intent could result in manslaughter, or 2nd degree murder. The question is whether a person believed that such an act could lead to the death of the person. If JVB reasonably believed it could and participated then Jack is right. At the least, her failure to report the incident could make her an accessory after the fact.

Doug Weldon

I believe it was murder if they were planning to inject cancer into someone (a defenseless mental patient). Judyth should have known that the human being being experimented on was getting a concoction of the cancer causing cells she was making. She was, in effect, a murderer. What good exists in injecting that substance into a person? They wanted to see if it worked well enough to kill the patient. And it did.

Kathy C

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Castro was a communist dictator. He was our enemy and he was physicaly close to us. The people of Cuba live in fear. Look what little Elian Gonzalez went through. I'm sure he's working on a farm now, when he could have been free in America.

I am convinced Castro is dead -- and for a long time now. Popping him off in 1963 may have relieved the Cuban people. Instead the guns turned around and took Kennedy out.

Would you like to live in Cuba under Castro? I'd rather see him dead.

Kathy C

No, simpler than that: the black white marriage.

Militant right inspired elements put pressure on the ratpack while the events leading to the Hollywood ten were being demolished. There's no need to bring in any sleazy depravity into the equation. You answer it yourself with the statement about JFK working hard on racial equality. I can't imagine JFK would have a problem with Sammys marriage either. I can imagine him having a problem with elements who do/did.

How about quoting my entire post and not a portion and twisting it? I answered Johns question and didn't think I need to elaborate.

edit add: (this is mild) http://mdah.state.ms.us/arrec/digital_arch...38|1|1|1|61250|

It might have been the Inaugural day. Sammy Davis was asked by phone if he heard from the Kennedys, wishing Sammy and white wife Mai Britt all the happiness in the world. His answer was an embarrassed no. He never heard from them. Sammy had worked hard to get President Kennedy elected.

I remember wondering if Sammy and his white wife had children, would they come out with polka dots or stripes? I was about 5 years old.

Kathy C

This is a picture of Norton in his Florida store.

Kathy C

hi kathy this is the photo of donald greb that james richard posted a few years back i believe it was.that long ago .....b

Yes, I have that one too. What I posted was the picture that as it downloaded said Ralph Geb under it. I never heard of Ralph Geb, so was surprised to find that he was connected to the Kennedy Assassination. There's a picture of Donald O. Norton in among the links for these charter boats on the "East coast."

Kathy C

Kathy,

How many abusive, repetitive, infantile, petty, self-absorbed, belittling, and repetitive posts does someone like Glenn Viklund have to make before the moderator notices and harnesses him in? Believe it or not, I was going to compliment Evan for his role here when I noticed that he had taken no measures to put an end to this string of abuses. That he has done something about it now is a welcome development. Apart from this solitary lapse, I think that, on the whole, he has been doing a good job here.

Jim

Evan,

Frankly, I had wondered what had become of you. This guy must have put up at least twenty (20) of these petty, juvenile, self-absorbed, belittling, repetitive and harassing posts. I would appreciate it if you would work backwards from his latest infantile assault and consider whether he has or has not so massively violated forum rules that he deserves the boot. I believe that he does. I also think it's obvious.

Jim

Glenn,

I have had to remove bad language from your post, and your tone is bordering on insulting / attacking a member. Please carefully consider your choice of words.

Also, although not active, Judyth is a member here and therefore the provisions of rule (iv) apply.

Thank you.

Prof. Fetzer, I have to apologize to you. I misunderstood what I was reading and have deleted the post regarding Evan Burton.

Kathy C

JVB admits in participating in a premeditated murder. I am surprised that nobody wants

her brought to justice. Scientific experimentation is no justification for murder.

We have attorneys on the forum. How about a legal opinion?

Jack

Many assertions have been made AND ACCEPTED AS FACT that a mental patient was injected

with Judy's cancer virus, and promptly died.

Why is this accepted as true without any checking? Hospitals keep voluminous records on

patients. What was the name of this patient? Where is the death report? Who administered

the injection? Where was the patient buried? What was the date of the injection and the date

of death? Many questions, few answers.

If this incident happened as reported, it clearly is a case of MURDER. There is no statute

of limitations on murder. If JVB admits to creating this cancer virus and being a party to

administering it to some poor unfortunate mental patient...IT IS STILL MURDER, PREMEDITATED

MURDER...not a scientific experiment. JVB has CONFESSED to murder and gone unprosecuted.

Am I the only one who finds this extraordinary?

Jack

I can see that the CIA would want to make a bioweapon against Castro. It's for America's safety. However, experimenting on a human beforehand is atrocious. Judyth didn't know prior to the man's death (if true). But knowing that Kennedy was most likely going to be killed, and not taking any action anonymously, is close to premeditated murder. She has, in fact, confessed, as Jack says. Maybe she's lucky few people believe her.

I think I would have gone to the FBI with this knowledge to prevent this assassination. Of course I would have been killed. Maybe I would go to a reporter and tell my whole part in the bioweapon scheme and that Kennedy was going to be killed. And then wait to be killed. So how could Judyth prevent the assassination without losing her own life? I don't know if legally she'd be responsible in part. What would any of us do in her shoes? If true.

Kathy C

Deleted as a misunderstanding. I thought Fetzer was denouncing Evan Burton and I was wrong. This assumption came about because Fetzer is going through each member one by one and I thought he was doing this to Evan.

Kathy C

Here is the Yearbook picture of Donald O Norton

Kathy C

On a hunch I went searching for Donald O. Norton on the Internet. I believe someday everything will be on the Internet. This was some years back. Five years ago. Norton was living 2 hours away from me. When people heard he had a fly-fishing store, it became a tourist trap; everyone trying to catch a glimpse of the real LHO. One researcher even emailed Norton to ask him about his identity. Another researcher and I had planned to go to Norton's store, but everyone went there and we never did.

Published on Rich's forum were photos of 2 teenage redheads (b&w) and some photos of Donald O Norton, including a yearbook picture. I started looking at fly-fishing shops and charter boats, and found someone who is a match for Donald O Norton, from Florida and seems like a very happy man. There was another redheaded fisherman with his own store, up near Canada who looked just like him. I believe that these 2 redheads are the adult images of the 2 redheaded boys found on Rich's forum. Rich told me people over the years have posted a lot of wild stuff, etc. on his forum. He didn't know who they were and that I didn't understand about Norton. And that was the extent of that.

Anyway, looking through these photo albums online, I saw a photo of a man who looked like the yearbook picture of D.O.N. As his photo came downwards a name was beneath it: Ralph Geb. Mostly as an afterthought, I later typed his name into my browser -- and discovered he supposedly posed as LHO before the assassination. Oh boy, I thought. I was on to something...

John Armstrong knows a lot about Donald O. Norton, but won't give up any info. And this frustrates me to no end. Awhile later, I decided to write to that website and ask who that particular man was as he looked familiar to me. A week letter I got an email back and it said the man (Ralph Geb) is Bill Dietz from N. Carolina.

I will try to upload his picture.

Kathy C

Kathy,

I asked you a question, "Have you ever done any research?"

You made the assertion, "Don't say I never did any research."

Well, I didn't. I thought you made a very odd and baseless

insinuation that Judyth had to direct me. I resented that.

It had no foundation. She doesn't even have the book. I'd

meant to thank you for "THE END". Let me thank you now.

Jim

OK. I figured you and Judyth were far apart geographically, and she was telling you by phone or email what issues in the book to bring up.

We're friends.

Kathy C

One of the positive things that has come out of this thread is your joining EF and participating, Greg. I think many members have appreciated the balanced and informed positions you have taken whether they agree with you or not.

Maybe marriage has mellowed you a little, but I'm glad you still care.

[emphasis added]

I like your analysis of what transpired, Mike. Also, many thanks for the kind words. And your last observation [in bold] is possibly more astute than you even know!

I agree. But I can see how my mention of Marilyn Monroe and the photos I and others posted of her could "anger" you. Rich said MM was allowed on his forum anytime. But with people claiming the Kennedy's killed her, I can see why I shouldn't have published things about her there.

Let me say: I never believed the Kennedys had anything to do directly with her death. A disinformationalist, now dead, named Robert F Slatzer, made a cottage industry of her death. He was a Hollywood man who wrote bad scripts for low-budget movies and was broke. But he heard the gossip about her and blew it up after Norman Mailer's book came out.

Yes, Robert K was there that afternoon at her house. But my belief is when he left that day, after an argument, a mobster showed up, possibly Johnny Roselli, and killed her. Slatzer then admitted an ally into his scheme: a has-been, never been, former low-budget starlet, Jeanne Carmen. She proclaimed she was Mariyn's best friend. But no one on Marilyn's team -- the chauffeur, the hairdresser, the make-up man, etc., ever heard of a Robert Slatzer or Jeanne Carmen; and they worked closely with Marilyn for her entire film career. They went on Mike Douglas' show and said they never heard of the 2.

I don't want to say anymore because it's off-topic. I do believe Pres. Kennedy had a brief affair with her, and Bobby didn't. So what? They used bad judgement.

Anyway, I just wanted to say this to you. This thread has been people hurling insults and has gone to hell. I just wanted to explain my change of opinion regarding Marilyn and you.

Kathy C

,

PARTING REFLECTIONS FROM JIM AND JUDYTH VARY BAKER ABOUT THIS THREAD

NOTE: Since Tracy posted "THE END", which was my favorite of the entire thread, there has been

-- I wrote THE END.

Kathy C

Kathy,

Have you ever done any research? Did you think I had to read HARVEY & LEE to find the pages that concern "Lee"'s alleged "missing tooth"? Are you aware the book is organized in chronological fashion, that I had asked Jack to tell me the alleged differences between them, and that, when I encountered this "missing tooth" business, I tracked it down?

I mean, really! I have published more than 150 articles and reviews, my 29th book will appear next month, and I have received many honors and awards for my research. Yet you think JUDYTH would have to point out passages for me? I dare say, you have utterly no idea what you are talking about. Judyth does not even have a copy of HARVEY & LEE!

Did it even cross your mind that, after my reply to Dixie Dea in post #1575, which repeated points I had made in earlier posts, Judyth responded separately in post #1598? Would it have made sense for us to make separate posts if we were in synch about this? You appear to be a dear, but one more example of someone incapable of thinking things through.

Jim

Have I ever done any research? In my own limited (i.e., money) way, yes. As a matter of fact, the book we're discussing now I began to proof-read for a second edition. The reprint never happened. But I'm very well-versed in Harvey and Lee.

What happened to Lee after he was flown out of Dallas? John Armstrong believed he came back after a time with the name Donald O. Norton. Armstrong literally chased this guy around the country because of this belief. Yet, I don't know how Armstrong found out about Donald O. Norton, but he wasn't going to publish this part of the story unless he had absolute proof.

Now when I was on Rich's forum, the belief was the man people thought was Lee Oswald (Donald O. Norton) was a redhead and had a brother also a redhead. I believe that I have photos of Norton, which I found on the Internet, knowing his interests. I also saw a photo of a curious-looking man and as the photo came downwards the name was "Ralph Geb." I wrote the name down and googled it later on and was shocked. "Ralph Geb" was involved with impersonating LHO before the assassination.

I felt this was important, but nobody seemed interested. Rich had gotten seriously ill. He said to me he didn't care if Lee Oswald showed up that day and confessed.

I wish John Armstrong would write his book on Donald O. Norton.

Since 1979 I became interested in a murder that was committed in Nov. 1963 in West Hollywood. Karyn Kupcinet was the daughter of Chicago columnist and talk show host, Irv Kupcinet. I have collected things about her and read anything I could about her. In the mid-90's no one on the Internet knew anything about her. Now she has become popular because, firstly, my diligence. Also, it's an unsolved celebrity murder and had to do, imo, with Jack Ruby. Most people around her believed Hope Lange's brother, David, killed her. But there are some of us who think there may be a connection with the Chicago Mob. I understand a Private Detective is looking into it. I don't want to be off-topic, so I'll stop here.

Don't say I never did any research. Do you know how much I wish to go to the conventions held in Dealey Plaza and elsewhere? Don't have the dough yet.

And (sniff!), that's my sad story...

Kathy C

Plumlee's abort team claim is probably the genesis Judyth's "abort team" claim re LHO, imo.

Bests,

Barb :-)

I agree with you entirely. The whole story about the abort team. They sound like the 3 Stooges, if you ask me. They get to Dealey Plaza at the last minute to save him? I agree that Judyth assimilated this. Tosh receives a lot of respect on this forum.

Yours Truly,

Kathy C

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

Good question, too, Jack .... and another question is when was the first mention of Judyth, et al working with monkeys? No mention in the early days, that I recall or have found reference to. 2003/2204? Or later, or it seemed to grow later...especially recently.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Judyth is adept at research. She has an answer to everything. When she was on Rich's forum, you couldn't get an answer out of her -- she was too ill. Yet she wrote big posts. Now she's had time to research. She has a great intellect, I'll hand her that. I find it difficult to believe that Oswald worked in that disgusting lab.

Kathy C

There have been recent reports (including a recent book by Jerry Lewis) that Sinatra was a courrier for the mob. That he did carried large sums of money for Lucky Luciano (Permindex).

Now years later his kid Frank Jr. would be linked to Heidi Fleiss. When Heidi Fleiss was a young girl it was reported that she was dating Bernie Cornfield, who was the mutual fund master of Investors Overseas Services before losing it to Robert Vesco.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/004420.php

Heidi Fleiss is a bum.

I have a theory pertaining to Frank Jr's kidnapping. The Mob, especially out of Chicago, did not want to be blamed for the assassination. The crimes involved the children of certain personages. Jack Ruby made headlines when he killed LHO. He had been close to Paul Dorfman -- waste unions. Another person close to Dorfman was Sid Korshack, mafia lawyer. The most investigated man of his time. Nothing ever stuck to him. He operated out of Hollywood. He was also Irv Kupcinet's best friend. Irv, a reporter, was able to track Dorfman down in Palm Springs, CA. This was Sunday, shortly after Ruby shot Oswald. Kupcinet wanted to know about Ruby; he had met him a long time ago. When Kup told Dorfman that Jack Rubenstein had just shot Oswald, Dorfman came across shocked -- real or not, I don't know. "Sparky wouldn't do that. He's a nebbish kind of guy," he said.

Also in Palm Springs, CA that weekend was Irv's daughter, Karyn Kupcinet. Coincidence?

Theory: The boys in Chicago wanted Ruby off the front pages of the newspapers. What would do that? How about a spectacular crime, something that would shock residents of Chicago? On Nov. 28, 1963, four days after Oswald's death, Karyn Kupcinet was murdered in West Hollywood. She was discovered 3 nights later. The crime was never solved.

Soon after that the son of F. Sinatra was kidnapped -- Mobsters behind that? Because who worked harder to get Kennedy elected in the first place? Frank Sinatra. So they kidnapped his kid to get back at him and to have the public mesmerized by anoher crime story. And then -- the Beatles came over.

When Karyn K. was found, Irv's best friend picked him up at LAX. His best friend even identified the body. His best friend was none other than Sidney Korshack. I hope he never knew about this. If he did, he kept his mouth shut.

Kathy C

Judyth said that Oswald was part of an assassination abort team. William Plumlee said he flew in an assassination abort team and they reached Dealey Plaza with few minutes to spare. Plumlee hung out under the shade of a tree on the South Knoll with another man.

What exactly was Oswald going to do to stop the assassination? And the other cast of characters Plumlee flew in? I can't find one incident where someone tried to stop it. The Secret Service stood down. And the shots were coming from everywhere -- the Dal-Tex building, TSBD, grassy knoll, south knoll, Underpass, etc. How were these vagabonds going to stop the guns?

I think Judyth is off the board now, but I would like to ask her: just how was Oswald going to stop the assassination? And was he a part of Plumlee's team of assassination abortionists?

Kathy C

GJ [Good job] JG.

I remember Greg Burnham yelling at me because I laughed when I heard some woman claimed she had a love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Off topic?

Kathy C

I have never yelled at you. I have never met you. I have never spoken with you in person or on the phone. How could I ever have yelled at you?

Kathy, when I first joined this forum you reached out to me in private email and I agreed that it was best to let bygones be bygones. Are you having a change of heart?

Greg, I meant the post to be funny. You were "angry" when I scoffed about Judyth. And now years later we're on this thread. Yes, everything is in the past. No, we never spoke, but we did write.

Kathy C

It should also be pointed out that he took the time to read Harvey and Lee to better understand some of the critics.

Dean

How much of that book has he read? I bet only passages that Judyth points out to him. Harvey and Lee is a long, long book. You have to take time and digest the material. If he reads it in the future, then wonderful. I don't expect anyone to read that book overnight and wouldn't trust anyone who said they did.

Kathy C

GJ [Good job] JG.

I remember Greg Burnham yelling at me because I laughed when I heard some woman claimed she had a love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Off topic?

Kathy C

THE END

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

"Here are things Judyth told me last March:

(2) When I asked Judyth how she would answer the question of how she could

have had so much foreknowledge and yet not reported it to the authorities

(prior to 11/22/63), part of her long rambling answer was that, in order to

get greater protection for JFK on his Dallas visit, Lee fomented the

Stevenson incident. That¹s right: Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident

so that the authorities would beef up protection on Kennedy.

Question to Martin Shackelford: Did she tell you this tale, too? Any

comment? Do you find it reasonable? Just another one of the adventures in

the life of (or perhaps, more accurately, in the mind of) Judyth

Wonderwoman?

I also want to repeat, and remind anyone reading this post, of other things

she said to me last March, 2000 (some of these are repeats from a previous

post; some are new):

ITEM: Judyth told me that she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the

assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV. (Just

consider the implications of that statement, which was said most

deliberately).

When and why was she in Florida when Kennedy was assassinated? I thought she was in New Orleans when that happened. And she and her co-workers (working on cancer inducement?) watched the TV because they all knew Kennedy was going to be assassinated? These had to be underworld people. She was working with them?

Kathy C

ON ED HASLAM,WHY NOT BECAUSE AFTER ALL HE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS, WHICH I HAVE AND READ, HE IS THE AUTHOR RESEARCHER OF SUCH, YET IN ALL THE YEARS THAT IT TOOK HIM TO DO SO, HE NEGLECTED TO DO OR COMPLETE HIS RESEARCH, HE DID NOT FIND AS FAR AS WE KNOW NOR NAME HIS OLD GIRLFRIEND NOR GET HER INFORMATION NOR STATEMENT RECALLING HER INFORMATION PERTAINING TO SAID PARTY, HE DID NOT GO TO THE N/O ARCHIVES WITHIN THE CITY BEFORE KATRINA RUINED ALL,SO I HAVE READ, TO SEARCH FOR THE INFORMATION OF WHOM OWNED OR RENTED THAT APARTTMENT HOUSE AT THE TIME OF THE PARTY, NOR OBTAIN THE COPIES OF DOCUMENTS OF WHOM WERE LIVING THERE,HE ALSO MENTIONED YEARS BACK OF BEING REMINDED OF SUCH BY SEEING THE NAME JUDY BAKER ON AN OFFICE DOOR, BEFORE JUDYTH WAS IN CONTACT WITH HIM, I BLIEVE ALSO WHEN HE WAS ON THE ALTS YEARS BACK IT WAS JUDY BAKER THAT THEN EVENTUALLY CHANGED TO JUDYTH,SO PERHAPS NOW IT SHOULD BE ED'S WORK TO BE CRITIQUED UPON, IN A NEW THREAD AND ASKED SOME DIRECT QUESTIONS OF THE WHY NOTS,ABOUT WHAT IS OR HAS NOT BEEN DONE NOR VERIFIED WITHIN HIS BOOK AND RESEARCH, OUT OF WHICH JUDYTH BAKER AND HER INFormation FIRST WAS INTRODUCED, IF JOHN ARMSTRONG'S WORK, AND MANY OTHER'S SUCH AS YOURSELF, CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR WORK THEN WHY HAS ED HASLAM HAD A FREE PASS,IMO SO FAR, THAT IS WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE...WHERE IS HIS VERIFICATION DOCUMENTATION AND PROOF OF WHAT HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT HIM MEETING ANOTHER JUDYTH BAKER WHO HELD A PARTY WHO WAS INTERESTED IN LHO AND EVEN THOUGH ED WAS HE REFUSED TO TALK WITH HER...ED NEEDS TO NOW PROVIDE OTHERS HIS PROOF SO THAT RESEARCHERS DO NOT THINK THAT ALL THIS COULD HAVE JUST BEEN PERHAPS ANOTHER CONVENIENT STORY ..WITH BEST REGARDS....B

Bernice, I believe the New Orleans property ownership records are online. I found this after reading your post regarding Katrina. As an example:

http://qpublic.net/la/orleans/search.html