Kathleen Collins

"This terrible phrase ' so they can see what they've done' , constitutes postive proof that Mrs. Kennedy instantly guessed what lay behind the tragedy; that she knew deep down in her heart that her husband had been killed at the instigation of Vice-President Johnson.

Nor is that all. When Johnson later, in his incomparabley hypocritical manner, tried to "comfort" the widow, she pushed him back. " I don't want that man to touch me, ' she cried out to her entourage.

So does a sensitive woman shrink from a murderer.

Joachim Joesten

Where does the quote, "I don't want that man to touch me" come from? And why was she so nice to LBJ over the tape-recordered phone conversation?

Kathy C

"When one of her entourage suggested to the young widow that she should change her blood-stained clothes before the flight back to Washington with the Johnson party alread installed on Air Force One, Jacqueline Kennedy fiercely resisted. No, she was not going to change, she replied, " so they can see what they've done."

Who, Oswald? Or any other nameless assassin? It stands to reason that Mrs. Kennedy's insistence on wearing her blood-caked clothes on the plane could not be meant to show to the acutal snipers what they had done to her; none of them could possibly be on that plane. Who, then, was "they"?

Is there any other possible explanation than that she meant Lyndon Johnson and his party?

"The Dark Side of Lyndon Baines Johnson" by Joachim Joesten 1968

In my opinion, "They" were, in her mind, the Texans, none of whom could measure up to what her husband was. Everyone who opposed him. There were scary ads published that day: Kennedy Wanted for Treason, etc. Black-boarded pages in the Dallas papers. She didn't like campaigning in the first place. Did she blame Johnson? If yes, then what was behind the phone call he received from her during his presidency? He sent her some fabulous present and she called him, Mr. President in a little girl's voice. And she quipped, "That's what they'll remember about me -- she ran around with 2 presidents."

How could this gracious and charming exchange occur if she thought Johnson was behind it? I don't understand that.

And I agree with her decision of letting people see what they did to her husband.

I concede. It is Billy Lovelady in a plaid shirt. I haven't looked at him in a long time. There was a thread here some time ago that challenged the Lovelady pose and face, and that it had been the result of photo editing. And was it really Billy Lovelady in that odd pose.

My error. This whole thread has been for nought. Sorry. (But he looks like Paine, ha, ha.)

Kathy C

Glad I could help Kathy

Of course I believe Oswald was in the lunch room where he was seen cool and calm drinking a Coke by Officer Baker

I think he was in the lunch room throught the entire assassination

I heard of a theory where Officer Baker was supposed to have killed Oswald, right there and then. But there was a woman there too. So he couldn't. And that Oswald was told to stay by the phone because he was going to receive an important message.

Why else would LHO not go out to see the motorcade? He was working undercover for somebody, only he didn't realize as the patsy.

Kathy C

I concede. It is Billy Lovelady in a plaid shirt. I haven't looked at him in a long time. There was a thread here some time ago that challenged the Lovelady pose and face, and that it had been the result of photo editing. And was it really Billy Lovelady in that odd pose.

My error. This whole thread has been for nought. Sorry. (But he looks like Paine, ha, ha.)

Kathy C

I still contend that someone affixed Paine's face onto that body. I welcome anyone to prove otherwise. I'm not saying Paine was there, but his face was used.

No way

Its Lovelady

Can you or someone show me how Lovelady, who was there with a plaid shirt on, looks more like this fellow than Paine does?

Kathy C

Uh-Oh, is that figure wearing a plaid shirt over a t-shirt or is it, as I thought, a dark jacket?

Kathy C

I still contend that someone affixed Paine's face onto that body. I welcome anyone to prove otherwise. I'm not saying Paine was there, but his face was used.

No way

Its Lovelady

Can you or someone show me how Lovelady, who was there with a plaid shirt on, looks more like this fellow than Paine does?

Kathy C

The man in the doorway does not resemble Paine, Oswald or Lovelady.

He resembles Oswald more than the others. Lovelady says he was SITTING

on the steps. Why in the world would Paine be there?

If it WAS Oswald, the entire WR is exposed for the farce it is.

If it was NOT Oswald, it is immaterial who it was.

Jack

Jack, I'm surprised. Lovelady was there on the stairs for all to see after Kennedy was shot and he had on a plaid shirt. The back of his head was balding. He was not Harvey Oswald! I don't know why anyone could think that that face looks like Harvey's. That face is one of the lookalikes. I don't even maintain that it's Lee Oswald (John Armstrong theory). To me, if they fooled with that picture, they put Paine's face in. Why? Because he looked like Harvey, later killed by Ruby. And he is not the same man whose face was put on the "man" in the Backyard Photos. That might have been Lee's face with a touch up. And that face is not Harvey's either.

I'm surprised after all these years that someone would contend that the man in the Backyard Photos was Harvey. It's not the same man! And the same in the TSBD doorway. That is not Harvey. I still contend that someone affixed Paine's face onto that body. I welcome anyone to prove otherwise. I'm not saying Paine was there, but his face was used.

Kathy C

In the famous Altgen picture which shows the Man in the Doorway, that man is an Oswald lookalike. I think we all agree on that. But it's not the face of Billy Lovelady. But it looks a lot like Michael Paine. Comments?

Kathy C

Thanks, Stephen, for your research. I should have tried to pin it down more. So it's true. Ferrie wanted to be a Jesuit, according to what I found. Where did you get all this info about Ferrie? He was into so many things. He probably heard about the Jesuit order and the "Vatican Assassins" and thought he'd be in good fellowship.

Kathy C

See my reply to Tom. I started researching Ferrie many years ago. I found lots of stuff at the National Archives, at AARC and other places. When the HSCA report came out, it echoed much of what I found, but pointed me to new sources. Most of that eventually came out in the NA under the ARRB releases.

As I read through each document, I made notes about certain sections referring to certain things, and kept a running chronology. When the time came to write a particular section, I would review all the relevant documents and write it up. Not unlike doing a puzzle, finding pieces that went together and organizing the whole thing. Where I had missing pieces, I would try to contact the persons involved for clarification (which, of course, often led to more things!) The final result will be hepful in understanding Ferrie.

I hope to read your book someday. (Everytime I think of Ferrie, I think of Joe Pesci.)

Kathy C

Now I'm pathetic, on top of all the nice things Johnny Bevlaquavelva said about me.

BK

Bill, you write well and you're entitled to your opinion. But you know what? To me you'll always be the fellow who didn't see a resemblance to Harvey Oswald in the dark when Donald O. Norton joined your party, which included Mae Brussels. And you walked away.

You walked away.

Kathy C

In this instance, Dean Hagerman doesn't know what he is talking about.

Michael Hogan has no clue what he is talking about

Why you ask would I say that? I guess just like him I'm saying it just to say it

How does that sound Michael?

Maybe you should pay attention to what's IN the book like I did instead of dwelling on spelling errors you act like this book is an report that Fetzer turned into an 8th grade English Teacher

Who cares (besides you and English teachers) if the book has errors? You make it sound like it was so bad that it was impossible to read the book. the errors did not take away from the flow of the book that was easy to read and understand

And for your info I own the first edition

I hope you break my post apart and point out all the spelling and punctuation errors to me so I (along with all the other researchers who care about the case instead of grammer) can get a good laugh

You asked for it. Your mistakes in bold and purple above.

"Maybe you should pay attention to what's IN the book... You act like this book is an report that Fetzer turned into an 8th grade English Teacher."

Question: How can you turn a book into an 8th grade English Teacher? Books can't become people. They're inanimate objects.

Kathy C B.A. English, from a Jesuit College. So there!

Ferrie's religious history is twofold:

First, he was raised strictly Catholic and began as an altar boy, choir member and organist (no jokes, please.) Then he attended Saint Mary Seminary in Cleveland. He was asked not to return due to unsureness of his calling. A few years later, he attended St. Charles Seminary in Carthagena. He was asked not to return there due to several factors, not least that he came into conflict with teachers and other seminarians. I don't recall if either group was Jesuit; I'll check. The records of his dismissal are vague. He may have had one or more nervous breakdowns. While there is no overt mention of homosexuality, there may be a hint or two. A possibly related reason for dismissal is that he was antinomian: he believed that a strict traditional moral code did not apply to a person of sufficient faith, in terms if getting to Heaven.

In later years, he applied unsuccessfully to 2 or 3 other seminaries in Ohio, Texas and Louisiana. He stayed close to the legitimate Catholic Church in Louisiana: He interacted with clergymen at Tulane and other colleges; he helped boys matriculate to seminaries; he helped them convert to Catholicism and become baptized; and he tried to set up connections between his CAP cadets and several New Orleans area churches.

In late 1961, he was asked to help Jack S. Martin in an investigation of "ordination mills", "Old Orthodox Catholic Church of North America" type offshoots (not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church) to obtain evidence of a fraudulent ordination. (Ferrie was ordained, but this group excommunicated him after the bad publicity from Ferrie's morals arrests). This put Ferrie in touch with several members/leaders of these offshoots, and Ferrie seems to have taken it seriously. By 1963, he was ordained in one of them, but he drifted in and out for the next few years.

The picture of Ferrie in priest garb in front of a seminary was mislabeled by me when I first posted it, and has ricocheted over the years. It is St. Charles, NOT Saint Mary.

Thanks, Stephen, for your research. I should have tried to pin it down more. So it's true. Ferrie wanted to be a Jesuit, according to what I found. Where did you get all this info about Ferrie? He was into so many things. He probably heard about the Jesuit order and the "Vatican Assassins" and thought he'd be in good fellowship.

Kathy C

It is plausable; and seems very likely that UM provided some kind of low-tech signal to the shooters, and RM seems to signal with his raised arm. Why in the world would these people be there, with an umbrella and do these kind of actions if they were not part of a murder that was going on a few feet away?

Absolutely. Zapruder on the wall was supposed to be the main sight. But, in fact, that honor went to the Cuban. He was the most noticable person in that Plaza (besides Kennedy) -- and quite proud. In a country not his own.

Kathy C

4. Not too many witnesses would see the umbrella opening and closing down near the Grassy Knoll.

Even with the inserted Stemmons Freeway sign in Zapruder, we see the umbrella man moving the umbrella up and down; while the Cuban next to him signals to SS Greer, the driver, where to stop. This stopping of the limo has been removed from the Zapruder film.

Kathy C

Have you considered the possibility that the Stemmons Freeway sign wasn't inserted into Zapruder, but was strapped to Umbrella Man's back?

I guess that's supposed to be funny. Read Fetzer's compendiums: Assassination Science, Murder at Dealey Plaza and especially, The Great Zapruder Film Hoax.

Kathy C

I did like some of Dr. Salerian's paintings, though.

Paintings? A bullet from the front went through the windshield.

Proving the immobilization theory is a tuff one. This guy is an MD. Are you an MD? He is also a painter , I know.The fact is Kennedy was hit by something that caused an entry wound to the throat; caused his arms to raise, immobilized him and made him unable to speak. He was clearly softened up for the kill, then Cuban Man raised his arm to give the go ahead for the fatal shot.

One has to ask the question why would this man raise his arm a few feet from the dying President of the United States if he were not in on the deed?

He was not waiving an innocent hello!

He had NO business being there.

He did not flee in panic nor did he run away out of fear of being caught.

Lets look at what this MD has to say and why he feels the way he does.

Amen.

Kathy C

"I've always been interested in conspiracy theories. I am fascinated by the Kennedy assassination. I know how that happened. I won't tell you. But I know exactly what happened. This is a story for another time....."

Jesse Ventura interview with ESPN's Lynn Hoppes, December 1, 2009: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...e=hoppes/091201

I saw the show yesterday afternoon on TruTV.com (used to be Court TV) around 3 pm. He went to the Alaska hinterland to try to go into the HAARP facility. The people there gave him a hard time and wouldn't tell what they do in that site. After an exchange of about 5 minutes, the cameraman's camera started acting up. The lens was moving around, you saw the cameraman's feet, the sound became static. They were actually controlling his camera with "waves."

Anyway, the reason HAARP exists is to change weather patterns, like altering the gulf stream. They may have had something to do with Katrina in New Orleans, a major experiment. New Orleans is 97% a black population... it makes you wonder. Also the waves can pull planes out of the sky with little or no residue. Which makes me think of the plane in Pennsylvania on 9/11.

Jesse said they will be concentrating on conspiracy theories that happened in the last 20 years, including 9/11. They will not investigate the Kennedy assassination.

The show will air on truTV at 10 pm Wednesday night.

Kathy C

I enjoyed last week's episode on HAARP quite a bit.

I hope that more investigative research follows.

I wish that he would give his opinion (and support for it) on the JFK assassination.

I agree with you. He states that he knows exactly what happened. Well, tell the rest of us! Maybe he's fearful of his life and will leave a tape (a la Jackie Kennedy) with the answer on it for after he dies.

"I've always been interested in conspiracy theories. I am fascinated by the Kennedy assassination. I know how that happened. I won't tell you. But I know exactly what happened. This is a story for another time....."

Jesse Ventura interview with ESPN's Lynn Hoppes, December 1, 2009: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...e=hoppes/091201

I saw the show yesterday afternoon on TruTV.com (used to be Court TV) around 3 pm. He went to the Alaska hinterland to try to go into the HAARP facility. The people there gave him a hard time and wouldn't tell what they do in that site. After an exchange of about 5 minutes, the cameraman's camera started acting up. The lens was moving around, you saw the cameraman's feet, the sound became static. They were actually controlling his camera with "waves."

Anyway, the reason HAARP exists is to change weather patterns, like altering the gulf stream. They may have had something to do with Katrina in New Orleans, a major experiment. New Orleans is 97% a black population... it makes you wonder. Also the waves can pull planes out of the sky with little or no residue. Which makes me think of the plane in Pennsylvania on 9/11.

Jesse said they will be concentrating on conspiracy theories that happened in the last 20 years, including 9/11. They will not investigate the Kennedy assassination.

The show will air on truTV at 10 pm Wednesday night.

Kathy C

when one is kicked out of the church it is called Excommunication .b

Priests may be defrocked - ejected from the priesthood - without being excommunicated, which is to be denied participation in worship and church community, and refused the blessings of the Sacraments. Henry VIII was excommunicated for rejecting the Pope's authority; David Ferrie, defrocked for homosexuality. This is eight years of Catholic school talking, Bernice.

This is 17 years of Catholic School speaking. I know of the Old Roman Church. I don't think Ferrie belonged to them -- but I'll recheck. They're an older society and different from the Roman Catholics and much smaller in membership, to say the least. The article about Ferrie said Jesuits.

Kathy C

I have known about this for years, and have seen that picture of Ferrie as a Priest 100s of times

I just assumed all researchers and students of the assassination knew about Ferrie trying to become a priest

I never saw that photo before and I remember something vaguely about his studying for the priesthood. I think he was gay.

To which my next response would be, not buying that either; for if such material did exist, the desired action of assassinating President Kennedy and eliminating Castro by a accompanying invasion would have the de facto Cuban involvement in the assassination, that in my view, has never existed!

Draw your own conclusions.

I suppose when Kennedy's Assassination happened, that was a Puerto Rican with his arm up (as seen in Zapruder and some photos), telling the limo driver, William Greer, where to stop. The "kill zone," if you will. The alterationists had to leave him and the Umbrella Man in Zap's film because photos were taken from across the street.

Yes, the "dark-complected man" was a Cuban Exile. Who else would he be? A stray Mexican?

Kathy C

I found this on the Internet. I couldn't believe it, but apparently it is true. Ferrie was once a Jesuit. In an ad for a new book about the Jesuit Assassins, they show a picture of Ferrie dressed as a priest. He did not look like a novitiate. Here he is:

November 23, 2009: Kennedy Assassination, Jesuit David Ferrie

Posted by EJP on Nov 24th, 2009 and filed under Jesuits, Radio. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

The Kennedy Assassination is reviewed with special emphasis put upon the Jesuit Order and one of its pawns, David Ferrie. Educated by Jesuits and having prepared for the priesthood, Ferrie was both a CIA agent and mafioso affiliated with New Orleans Mafia Don Carlos Marcello. Ferrie was also connected to the Jesuits of Loyola University in New Orleans according to Joan Mellon in her Farewell to Justice. The Jesuit Order, in command of its CIA via Knight of Malta John A. McCone, murdered President Kennedy. Four days later, on November 26, 1963, the Chivalric Alliance of Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem was consolidated with the signing of a joint declaration between the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and the Most Venerable Order at St. John’s Gate, London, by the Prince of Resuttano—the Grand Chancellor of the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Malta (SMHOM), and Lord Wakehurst—Lord Prior of the Most Venerable Order. The formal alliance further solidified the Black Pope’s International Intelligence Community—the clandestine Holy Office of the Inquisition. Overseeing the planning, the assassination and subsequent cover-up was “the American Pope,” Francis Cardinal Spellman.

Categories: Jesuits, Radio

Tags: CIA, Kennedy Assassination

David_Ferrie_at_St._Mary__s_Seminary.bmp

From Zavada:

When my contract with Kodak expired, I was in a position to

express my personal views. Simply stated "There is no detectable

evidence of manipulation or image alteration on the "Zapruder in-camera original"

and all supporting evidence precludes any forgery thereto."

The film that exists at NARA was received from Time/Life, has all

the characteristics of an original film per my report. !The film medium,

manufacturing markings, processing identification, camera gate image

characteristics, dye structure, full scale tonal range, support type,

perforations and their quality, keeping shrinkage and fluting

characteristics, feel, surface profile of the dye surface. !It has NO

evidence of optical effects or matte work including granularity, edge

effects or fringing, contrast buildup etc.

=Len Colbyhttp://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

Anyone interested should read the whole report, it's 6yearsandthere'sbeen no meaningful reply from the alterationist cult

His conclusion that what the alterationists propose was technically impossible was backed by Oliver Stone, Robert Groden and Raymond Fielding. The latter literally ‘wrote the book’ on Special Effects Cinema-photography and previously had been repeatedly cited by David Healy.

I was reading through this thread. I wonder if anyone mentioned the "pin-cushion" effect of the Stemmons Freeway sign, which was inserted in the Zap film to hide a frontal shot at Kennedy. A short time later that sign disappeared forever.

The film was developed by a big time photo outfit. Probably the most important homemade film ever in history. Why was the lab so incompetent with this Zapruder film? No turn onto Elm St. There's an obvious splice as the limo suddenly does appear on Elm St. This makes for an alteration in the Zapruder film in my opinion.

Also the Altgen's photos. He must have been pretty fast on his feet if he could photograph the limo on Houston St., then be on time to photograph Kennedy on Elm St. from in front of the limo. His photo showed President Kennedy in obvious distress as he clutched his tie knot and an Oswald lookalike stood in the TSBD doorway. (We can exclude Billy Lovelady in t-shirt and dark jacket, as Lovelady wore a plaid shirt.)

Kathy C

Yes Dean, there IS a huge difference, Altgens DID take the photograph. What you posted was disinformation based on a misquote.

I'm sure it's not disinformation, at least on Dean's part. It's MISinformation (if it is that -- misinformation). Nothing deliberate on Dean's part one way or the other.

Kathy C

In view of John Armstong's research, the 2 Oswalds, could this be Lee who wasn't shot by Ruby? Does anyone have an opinion on the Harvey and Lee theory?

In my reading about Oswald I never came across an interest in fly fishing or boating. I say this because the Avon Park, FL Donald O. Norton, whom people believed was Lee (not Harvey) Oswald, had these interests. Does anyone know?

Kathy C

I thought the bus came to a stop, ironically where Kennedy was shot. Photographers got out and took photos of people on the ground. Why would a photographer take a photo through a closed window when he could get out and take them. He had to be on the right side of the bus to take the pergola; and by the driver to take a photo of the underpass bridge. It doesn't make sense.

Kathy C

The aisles may have been clogged with onlookers who were afraid for their lives, too. Would you step out into the gunfight at the OK Corral just to get a better look or would you duck and cover? For all the onlookers and passengers knew there might have been a running gun fight continuing between the perps and the cops.

"Something has happened in the motorcade. I repeat, something has happened in the motorcade." -- one of the reporters. I don't think the reporters or photographers knew that Kennedy had been shot. And as for being afraid of getting shot -- do you remember how quickly witnesses ran up the grassy knoll, fearing nothing? Photographers have to get pictures. That's what they do, even putting themselves in harm's way.

Kathy C