Kathleen Collins
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The Umbrella Man sent the flechette into Kennedy's throat. Maybe it didn't matter where it hit him; it would still have the same effect of paralysis.
Please tell me this is a joke. It's too incredible even to be part of a James Bond plot.
* How did Umbrella Man aim the device?
* What were the odds of him missing and hitting Jackie, or someone over the street?
* Was it really necessary to paralyse the President in order to assist the crack hit squad?
* Why didn't the Umbrella Man stand further up the street, so he could paralyse JFK before the first shot was fired?
* Who was that man later identified as the Umbrella Man who gave a reasonable explanation of his actions?
This list could be expanded. It's a ridiculous, laughable notion.
Paul.
1. Umbrella Man aimed the device and shot the "dart" by opening and closing the umbrella above him.
2. What were the odds of Jackie, etc., getting hit by a bullet? That didn't stop the shooters.
3. If Kennedy realized someone was shooting, he could have ducked. With the fleschette he couldn't.
4. Not too many witnesses would see the umbrella opening and closing down near the Grassy Knoll.
Even with the inserted Stemmons Freeway sign in Zapruder, we see the umbrella man moving the umbrella up and down; while the Cuban next to him signals to SS Greer, the driver, where to stop. This stopping of the limo has been removed from the Zapruder film.
5. The President died violently next to his wife and for all the world to see. Then they gave him a bum's autopsy. What's funny about it? Really, what's funny about any of it? The fleschette theory started with Fletcher Prouty, not me. And you can't say that that Cuban Exile isn't up to something evil too. How they came to be next to each other -- one paralized Kennedy and the other signaled for the limo to stop. The limo had reached the shooting zone.
Kathy C
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Did that flechette make it through the windshield? Who fired it, from what distance and velocity? What's the accuracy and capability of flechette weapons c. 1963?
If you put a bullet in my shoulder and another in my throat, I'd be pretty immobilized and speechless, too. If one nicked my spine, I might not even be able to pull my wife down to safety.
So little time, so many bullets. Was there time for a flechette?
Why bother with a flechette to the throat, which might have struck his face or clothing, and been witnessed by people? Why not put it in the back or neck from above?
Was the throat the intended target? Would we say that the throat was the intended target of anyone firing a bullet from the front?
Did this flechette issue from a weapon mounted inside the limo, aimed precisely at JFK's throat using the rear-view mirrors?
A frontal throat flechette wound strikes me as implausible for the same reasons that a clear frontal shot from the TSBD toward the limo on Houston Street does - just not decisive enough. Much risk, no guarantee.
These are the problems created by the absence of the bullet causing the throat wound.
I did like some of Dr. Salerian's paintings, though.
David
Have you ever read "The Umbrella Man" by Robert Cutler?
I recommend this book to everyone, but as far as the flechette dart and TUM go this book will tell you everything you want to know
The only problem is that this book is very rare and very expensive
Let me find some scans to post
I could find only 1 used copy of The Umbrella Man by Robert Cutler. Amazon alone has it. It's priced at $96. It was published in 1975. I looked on eBay, Barnes and Nobles, half.com, Booksamillion, Borders books. I tried The Last Hurrah Bookshop; they must be out of business -- anyone know what happened? Only amazon.com has it.
Kathy C
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Did that flechette make it through the windshield? Who fired it, from what distance and velocity? What's the accuracy and capability of flechette weapons c. 1963?
If you put a bullet in my shoulder and another in my throat, I'd be pretty immobilized and speechless, too. If one nicked my spine, I might not even be able to pull my wife down to safety.
So little time, so many bullets. Was there time for a flechette?
Why bother with a flechette to the throat, which might have struck his face or clothing, and been witnessed by people? Why not put it in the back or neck from above?
Was the throat the intended target? Would we say that the throat was the intended target of anyone firing a bullet from the front?
Did this flechette issue from a weapon mounted inside the limo, aimed precisely at JFK's throat using the rear-view mirrors?
A frontal throat flechette wound strikes me as implausible for the same reasons that a clear frontal shot from the TSBD toward the limo on Houston Street does - just not decisive enough. Much risk, no guarantee.
These are the problems created by the absence of the bullet causing the throat wound.
I did like some of Dr. Salerian's paintings, though.
David
Have you ever read "The Umbrella Man" by Robert Cutler?
I recommend this book to everyone, but as far as the flechette dart and TUM go this book will tell you everything you want to know
The only problem is that this book is very rare and very expensive
Let me find some scans to post
Apparently Fletcher Prouty believed the Umbrella was loaded with some kind of poison. I hate to quote from McAdams. So if someone finds that this info is wrong, don't blame the messenger.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty_tum.htm
Kathy C
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Someone on my own forum has suggested to me that the object is a scratch on the bus window, as it appears to show itself in another Cabluck photograph as seen below.
I propose that the object may have been moving, and that's why it shows again. Who knows?. I've highlighted the object in the 2nd photograph.
These Cabluck photos look like stills. How could Cabluck take a picture of the North Knoll Pergola, obviously facing north and the Underpass facing west on a bus and get a scratch in the film both times? He must have moved around on the bus. But wouldn't he get off the bus and take pictures like the other photographers? If so, maybe his camera lens had a hair on it.
But it's interesting. Keep us posted about UFO's there. I've seen 2 in my lifetime. Some people wouldn't believe this but on 9/11 there were UFO's seen near the WTC disguised as blue -- pardon me -- balls.
Kathy C
Kathy,
The bus itself was moving down Elm Street as Cabluck was taking his still photographs (3 of them) out of a window on the right hand side of the bus. All of the photographs are looking essentially north/north-west.
Todd
I thought the bus came to a stop, ironically where Kennedy was shot. Photographers got out and took photos of people on the ground. Why would a photographer take a photo through a closed window when he could get out and take them. He had to be on the right side of the bus to take the pergola; and by the driver to take a photo of the underpass bridge. It doesn't make sense.Kathy C
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A better view of Jackie's little white dog she is showing to JFK.
Jack
I didn't reply Jack because it has NO relevance to the rest of the thread.
Mr. Unger, Jack's photo is relevant because he mentioned what Jackie and President Kennedy were discussing in his last moments alive. Then Jack posted the photo of the toy dog. Didn't one of the witnesses say she saw a dog in the limo when Kennedy got shot and people thought she was nuts?
I realize this thread is about the positions of various photographers in the Plaza. I feel Jack was inputting a story behind one of those pictures. He has a lot of knowledge.
Kathy C
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Did that flechette make it through the windshield? Who fired it, from what distance and velocity? What's the accuracy and capability of flechette weapons c. 1963?
If you put a bullet in my shoulder and another in my throat, I'd be pretty immobilized and speechless, too. If one nicked my spine, I might not even be able to pull my wife down to safety.
So little time, so many bullets. Was there time for a flechette?
Why bother with a flechette to the throat, which might have struck his face or clothing, and been witnessed by people? Why not put it in the back or neck from above?
Was the throat the intended target? Would we say that the throat was the intended target of anyone firing a bullet from the front?
Did this flechette issue from a weapon mounted inside the limo, aimed precisely at JFK's throat using the rear-view mirrors?
A frontal throat flechette wound strikes me as implausible for the same reasons that a clear frontal shot from the TSBD toward the limo on Houston Street does - just not decisive enough. Much risk, no guarantee.
These are the problems created by the absence of the bullet causing the throat wound.
I did like some of Dr. Salerian's paintings, though.
The Umbrella Man sent the flechette into Kennedy's throat. Maybe it didn't matter where it hit him; it would still have the same effect of paralysis.
I'm so used to seeing the Zapruder Film slow that when played normally, it seems impossible that anyone could shoot him -- a moving target. So that brings in the limo stop which was erased from the Zapruder Film. Someone got a good shot in because the limo stopped where the Cuban Exile so boldly indicated.
Kathy C
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Being ignorant of JFK matters, is there another photo which would show a similar view at the same time? Additionally, do we know the shutter speed used to take that image?
I'm thinking artifact but there are a couple of explanations at this time.
Still, at this time it is a UFO because it appears to be a flying object and it is unidentified.
BTW - that Cumberland / 1967 image; do you have more details on that one? Looks very interesting.
.
Someone on my own forum has suggested to me that the object is a scratch on the bus window, as it appears to show itself in another Cabluck photograph as seen below.
I propose that the object may have been moving, and that's why it shows again. Who knows?. I've highlighted the object in the 2nd photograph.
These Cabluck photos look like stills. How could Cabluck take a picture of the North Knoll Pergola, obviously facing north and the Underpass facing west on a bus and get a scratch in the film both times? He must have moved around on the bus. But wouldn't he get off the bus and take pictures like the other photographers? If so, maybe his camera lens had a hair on it.
But it's interesting. Keep us posted about UFO's there. I've seen 2 in my lifetime. Some people wouldn't believe this but on 9/11 there were UFO's seen near the WTC disguised as blue -- pardon me -- balls.
Kathy C
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A website called http://wikileaks.org is now posting the frantic cell phone calls from 9/11 as the World Trade Center began its demise. I don't know how long they will be on the Internet.
Kathy C
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Walt didn't click record when he broadcast, but we will have him on the dvd version.
Here is Jim Douglass' talk, http://vimeo.com/7768119 . It really was the highlight of the weekend and one of the best lectures I've ever attended. We intend to have a better version online soon.
Could you post Walt Brown's talk here?
Kathy C
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All what if's are irrelevant, the simple fact being that Oswald was not going to be brought down until Ruby was in place. Till then, Oswald could have taken all the time he wanted to pick out a sweater.
The only what if that could have saved Oswald is what if Ruby didn't show up.
Probably, in my opinion, Ruby stopped at Western Union or wherever he sent money to one of his dancers, so he'd have a time stamp and his killing of Oswald would seem spur of the moment not conspiratorial. Also taking one of his dogs with him and leaving him in the car. (I wonder who took care of Ruby's dogs after that.)
I want to say I made a mistake when I said I saw Gary Mack on one of these Mafia programs. I saw him on The Kennedy Assassination: 24 Hours Later. He began to break up over the coffin hassle in Parkland Hospital and Jackie standing there, having to listen to curses and such over her husband's murdered body. I'm sure she wanted to get her husband out of Dallas. I surely would. But the trouble is President Kennedy would have gotten a better autopsy in Dallas than what awaited him in Bethesda.
Kathy C
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Oh boy, the Discovery Channel did it again. Fed the world a bunch of nonsense and paraded it as an honest investigation. This new documentary, while purporting to present an objective look at Ruby's potential involvement in a conspiracy, did everything it could to SELL America that such speculation was just silly. Gary Mack was once again its hired gun and spewer of nonsense as fact.
The only value I could find in the program was its view of Oswald's death from 9 different cameramen and photographers. That was interesting and worthwhile. But the rest?
While I don't remotely consider myself an expert on the Ruby connection, here are a few of the glaring errors/deceptions...
NO mention of Ruby's assertion to Warren that the truth would not be known unless Warren brought him to Washington, and that Warren refused to bring him to Washington.
There was a program before it about the Mob's alleged participation. Either it or the Ruby Connection did mention that Ruby wanted to go to Washington to talk but wasn't allowed.
Did you see Gary Mack get choked up?
In short, the program appears to have been yet another program whose primary purpose was to convince people Oswald acted alone, and that the Dallas Police (and by extension, the City of Dallas) were completely innocent.
I wonder if Gary Mack's contract with the Sixth Floor Museum includes writing saying he must participate in such programs, and help in their creation. I wonder at this point if he would even be allowed to participate in a program should it hint, even so slightly, that the DPD was either incompetent or complicit in Oswald's death.
Suggested reading: Adams Vs. Texas. a true-life account of an accused cop-killer, and the injustices he faced at the hands of the DPD, Dallas Country DA's office, and Texas courts. It tells of their efforts to kill him, even though he was quite clearly (to non-Texans) innocent, and guilty of little more than having long hair and having met a young Texas punk on the day the kid decided to kill a cop. (They couldn't get the death penalty on the kid--so they decided to pin it on Adams.)
Anyhow, it's a really powerful story, and includes a Dallas DA's claiming Adams was as guilty as Oswald. Which is kind of the point. As Adams was innocent. After over a dozen years on death row and prison, Adams was eventually let go, in large part because he got a movie made abut his case, but also in part because one lawyer on the DA's office saw how ridiculous it was to try to re-try a man for a crime to which someone else (a clear sociopath who went on to kill again after not being charged with killing the cop--a crime to which he'd confessed--in exchange for his testimony against Adams) had admitted to doing.
Kathy C
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An email I received this morning:
I have seen that huge events are currently unfolding re LBJ and Time -life magazine which are included on Douglas Hornes blog, but i wonder if you have time at all to eludicate what i have been told from the US re the Parrott affair in that i was told George W Parrott was GHW Bushs Republican rival for a Senate seat in the primaries and it was for this purpose he sent from Houston "a telephonic message" seeking to incriminate his political rival in the JFK assassination.
There's a desperation in that act, too - one of those incriminating needs to cover one's backside and appear to be a good citizen. The firebug calling in the alarm.
Nobody's as hard or calculating as they wish to be, or need to be - that's why I give some credence to the revelation of LBJ crying in the AF One loo.
If Hoover's "George Bush of the CIA" memo is genuine, I suspect Hoover knew that GHWB's visit was playacting meant to exculpate Bush, Zapata, Agency, and so Hoover dictated his own Director's memo on the meeting to establish exculpability.
That GHWB - he protests too much, maybe more than LBJ.
As viewings go by - I'm almost swayed to accept that it is young GHWB seen slouching in that controversial pic taken in front of the TSBD on the afternoon of 11/22.
Here's a probable George HW Bush in front of the TSBD.
Kathy C
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Walt Brown is on now. He's talking about Oswald and the Russian language and other topics.
I tried hard to find Walt Brown and all I got was a minute or so of him saying Hello, Copa! Where can I see Walt's speech?
Kathy C
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Tonight: 8 pm the Mob and Kennedy Assassination; 9 pm Ruby Connection Discovery Channel.
Kathy C
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BREAKING NEWS-11/21/09: PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S ASSASSINATION SOLVED*******************
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE8b2CCDPqw
Vince Palamara
Thank you Vince.
Despite your misguided comments following release of Reclaiming History, you never stopped being a "Good Guy" in my book.
I'm sorry but I don't see what's new about knowing that the Secret Service killed Kennedy. They stayed away from his limo so the shooters could strike. Who were the shooters and who designed the assassination and who financed it? Are you trying to say there were always shooters around and the Secret Service denied them access until Nov.22, 1963? They are certainly complicit. But there's more to it.
Kathy C
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Cyril Wecht is just about to speak now for those interested.
John, or someone, I am having trouble today finding the stream. Could someone tell me what to do? Last night I saw John Judge and Jim Douglas. Now Cyril Wecht is going to speak and I can't get it.
HELP!
Kathy C
Kathy,
John,
It's working fine on my end.
Could you ask anyone who is on what they think of the petitions for Congressional Oversight Hearings of the JFK Act and for Special Federal Grand Jury investigation ?
Thanks,
Bill Kelly
I was on politicalassassinations. I guess they weren't broadcasting. I saw Cyril Wecht's piece. Thank you for helping me.
I became distracted when Cyril Wecht said where he thought the shooters were. Does anyone remember where he said?
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Cyril Wecht is just about to speak now for those interested.
John, or someone, I am having trouble today finding the stream. Could someone tell me what to do? Last night I saw John Judge and Jim Douglas. Now Cyril Wecht is going to speak and I can't get it.
HELP!
Kathy C
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They did a full body Cat scan on me today and marked me for the radiation. The physicist has to examine it so they know what angle to put the radiation on me, so as not to get my lungs or heart. Radiation starts Monday or Tuesday. I have to have 33 sessions. The place is real nice and the employees very nice. It's only 5 minutes away from me. So I will be driving myself. My sister-in-law doesn't think I'll be able to do it. I'll be in touch.
Kathy C
As someone who drove my wife for regular trips of radiotherapy, I agree with your sister-in-law. Do you have anyone to take you to the hospital?
John, I have access to a free ride to and from the doctor service, but you have to wait for them, up to an hour and they want notice 48 hours before. The cabs around here are pretty good. I used them the day of the surgery. It doesn't cost much to use them as I'm close by.
There used to be a service that would drive you to the doctor and go food shopping for you, etc., but they went out of business.
My radiation starts Monday. They said I'll be finished Jan. 15, 2010.
I am dismayed about what I heard today on the news here in the United States. They want women to get a mammogram every 2 years now, instead of one. You can't even have your ovaries looked at at all unless you have symptoms. They also want you to get a pap smear every 2 or 3 years. I've had to have 2 operations because of my yearly pap smear. A hysterectomy (pre-cancerous) and removal of a lump (benign). They discovered I was a DES daughter, a drug my mother was given so she wouldn't miscarry me, which leads inevitably to hysterectomies for the daughters. I've been lucky. It's a good thing I had those exams. I hope women will stick together over these "guidelines." If you don't want a mammo or pap smear then don't go. But the rest of us need to.
Congress passed these measures which will enable Health Insurance to refuse you a yearly mammogram and pap smear, so health costs will go down.
Well, enough of my rant. I want to thank everybody here for their well wishes. I'm overwhelmed by it all and will concentrate on that when the going gets rough.
I am looking forward to the COPA broadcasts. Especially John Armstrong, who said a few years ago he was finished with the Kennedy Assassination. Monday night at 9 pm the National Geographic Channel is doing a 2-hour show on the Assassination as it happened with footage that wasn't seen in 46 years.
Kathy C
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Hi kathy ...so very sorry to read your health news.......please take care and only do what you should.....i wish you all the very best and a full recovery....you are in my prayers......sincerely bernice..
Thanks to everyone. It was especially nice hearing from you, Bernice. It means a lot to me. I'm sure your prayers for me will reach Heaven faster than anyones'.
Yours Truly,
Kathy
***********************************************
Kath, if there's anything special in the way of books you might have been wanting to get, let me know and I'll have them sent off to you from Amazon.com like I did before. Get back to me via my personal e-mail: tmauro@pacbell.net.
Keep your chin up, and don't allow this to get you down. It's important to remain focused and vigilant at this time.
Best always,
Ter
Thank you, Terri. You probably know about this stuff. They did a full body Cat scan on me today and marked me for the radiation. The physicist has to examine it so they know what angle to put the radiation on me, so as not to get my lungs or heart. Radiation starts Monday or Tuesday. I have to have 33 sessions. The place is real nice and the employees very nice. It's only 5 minutes away from me. So I will be driving myself. My sister-in-law doesn't think I'll be able to do it. I'll be in touch.
Kathy C
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I just want to bump this up so everyone has a chance to see this notice about the COPA convention. I think this is important to all on this board.
Kathy C
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Of course this characterization, which was commonly held in 1963, was one of the two major factors that led to the selection of Dallas as the killing zone (the other, of course, relates to the efforts to include LBJ as a False Sponsor of the assassination and thus enhance control of his presidency and protect the true Sponsors).
I agree with the above statement. Yes, Johnson gained the most from all involved, but I don't think he "ordered" the assassination. But he knew it was going to occur and helped cover it up to the Cuban Exiles' dismay.
In The Men Who Killed Kennedy, I think it's part 9, called "The Guilty Men," which can now be seen on youtube, the finger is pointed directly at Johnson. He was involved in the murders of other people and Mac Wallace, his good friend and old school chum, a convicted murderer, left a fingerprint on a box in the TSBD. So it's very incriminating, but I still believe there were more powerful forces involved in Kennedy's death. But Johnson knew Kennedy was going to get it. He said as much to his girlfriend Madeleine Brown, the mother of his son, the night before. What divurges is -- Was Kennedy killed in the hope that Americans would blame Castro and get him ousted? Remember the arrogance of the one particular Cuban Exile, holding his arm up in the street for the shooters to commence shooting. The fact that you can do that in a country not your own. Or was Kennedy killed because the powers that be disliked the man's politics and performed a coup d'etat, with Johnson and his Warren Commission claiming Lee Harvey Oswald alone killed the President, as they didn't want war with Cuba or Russia?
Kathy C
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The man in question seems to be walking South to North, if this footage is from Elm, or from Dealey Plaza. Had it been the man assumed to be Lee Oswald, coming down the knoll, he'd be he'd be crossing Elm North to South to get into the station wagon.
Additionally this man seems to be wearing a long trench coat type of coat. I am not aware that Lee Oswald ever possessed or wore any piece of garment like this, of course I am not an expert with regards to what clothes he possessed.
Of course, by "Lee" I am referring to the theory of John Armstrong's: Harvey, killed by Ruby; and Lee, seen by a next door merchant, leaving the back of the Texas Theater quietly with 2 cops. What happened to him after that? Lee was supposedly in the TSBD as well when the shooting went on. He was a more filled-out and taller man than Harvey. But a great facial resemblance. I was hoping this was him. It certainly leaves you to believe it is.
Kathy
That man running is part of the "Don Cook" film on youtube. You can see him better, running across Elm from busy corner of Houston. For a while there I was hoping it was Lee, but it isn't. It's just misleading.
Kathy C
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It is my opinion that the Mob may have shared a hit man for the Assassination, but they wanted no connection to the Kennedy Assassination.
Am I reading this wrong?
If the mob shared a hit man (shared with who?) for the assassination, then they were connected to the assassination
But then you said they wanted no connection to the assassination
So why in the world would they share one of their hit man for the JFK assassination if they wanted no connection to the assassination?
And you think Jack Ruby was in the CIA?
Could you clear your theory up a little for me please?
Because what I read made no sense at all
OK. It is well known that Jack Ruby was gun-running for the CIA and involved with Cuban activities. Seth Kantor detailed this in his book, The Ruby Cover Up, pgs. 249-252
Somehow they got Ruby to kill Harvey Oswald. "Shared" might be an unfortunate word. There may have been a hit man used both by the Mob in their killings and by the CIA in the Assassination. His "resume" may have gotten around in other words.
I believe Ruby did work for the Mob, but later in his life he worked more with the CIA and/or was a victim of MK/ULTRA. All you had to do was mention "Kennedy" to him and he'd start crying. And he was out to show that Jews were not cowards. So he was really messed up. There will always be speculation about Ruby.
What I'm trying to say is the CIA, military intelligence, oil money and the CIA-trained Cuban exiles were behind the Assassination of President Kennedy. Other people believe it was Lyndon Johnson. He certainly gained the most by Kennedy's death. He supplied the cover-up. He knew if people thought Castro did it, there'd be an all out war. So Harvey Oswald was the patsy. I do believe Johnson and Hoover had foreknowledge. Just a look at Johnson's face when Kennedy spoke to people across the street from his hotel that morning and at the Breakfast. His girlfriend, Madelyn Brown, said he knew it. He had said, "After tomorrow those Kennedy boys won't be able to embarrass me anymore." This was said at the Murchison house late the night before. Texas in the Morning. And of course there was complicity of the Secret Service, as seen on a local newscast at Love Field.
In my opinion the Mob didn't get Kennedy. And they were too busy killing each other, with the deaths of Johnny Roselli, Sam Giancana, Jimmy Hoffa... I think Paul Dorfman was desperate to keep the Chicago Mob out of the Kennedy Assassination. So much so -- in my opinion, though I can't prove it -- that he ordered a hit on Karyn Kupcinet, an innocent victim, who was the daughter of Chicago Columnist, Irv Kupcinet. She was so well-known in Chicago that her death moved Ruby a bit out of the headlines. Then a few weeks later Frank Sinatra Jr was kidnapped. I believe this was orchestrated by the Mob again to get the country focused on something else than the Mafia. And it was Frank Sinatra who did everything he could to get President Kennedy elected. So let him squirm.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
Kathy C
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The man in question seems to be walking South to North, if this footage is from Elm, or from Dealey Plaza. Had it been the man assumed to be Lee Oswald, coming down the knoll, he'd be he'd be crossing Elm North to South to get into the station wagon.
Additionally this man seems to be wearing a long trench coat type of coat. I am not aware that Lee Oswald ever possessed or wore any piece of garment like this, of course I am not an expert with regards to what clothes he possessed.
Of course, by "Lee" I am referring to the theory of John Armstrong's: Harvey, killed by Ruby; and Lee, seen by a next door merchant, leaving the back of the Texas Theater quietly with 2 cops. What happened to him after that? Lee was supposedly in the TSBD as well when the shooting went on. He was a more filled-out and taller man than Harvey. But a great facial resemblance. I was hoping this was him. It certainly leaves you to believe it is.
Kathy
JFK: The Ruby Connection
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted