David Andrews

Yep, during several phone conversations, John Armstrong has speculated about an almost identical scenario! Here's how he put it on my website: As Tippit walked near the front of his patrol car LEE Oswald pulled his pistol and fired three shots. After Tippit fell to the ground LEE Oswald walked to the back of Tippit's car. He then stopped, returned to where Tippit was laying, and and deliberately shot him in the head (around 1:06-1:08 PM). Could Westbrook, who got out of the police car at the same time, have said, "finish the job," or something similar? That could have caused LEE Oswald to stop, turn around and re-trace his steps, and then shoot Tippit in the head with a fourth shot. Jack Tatum saw the 4th shot and said, "whoever shot Tippit was determined that he shouldn't live and he was determined to finish the job." NOTE: JFK researcher Shirley Martin tape-recorded an interview with Mrs. Aquilla Clemmons in August, 1964. Mrs. Clemmons said that while sitting on her porch, she saw two men standing near the police cruiser moments before Tippit was shot. Mrs. Doris Holan lived on the 2nd floor at 409 E Tenth Street (see map above), directly across the street from the Tippit shooting. Mrs Holan had just returned home from her job a few minutes after 1:00 PM when she heard several gun shots. From her 2nd floor bedroom window she had possibly the best view of the murder scene (see photo), and saw Tippit lying on the street near the left front of his patrol car. Mrs. Holan observed the shooter as he was walking across the Davis's lawn toward Patton. Mrs Holan also noticed a 2nd police car parked in the narrow driveway between the houses directly across the street (between 404 and 410 E. 10th). Tippit's car was parked on 10th St., directly in front of the narrow driveway, and prevented the 2nd police car from driving onto 10th St. From the description of Oswald (or "Oswald") seeming to chat with Tippit through the car window, I'm wondering if Westbrook and Croy didn't circle around the corner and pull up in the driveway, so Westbrook could force Tippit to arrest Oswald, and Oswald to shoot Tippit, when things might have gone differently if Westbrook hadn't shown up. I was trying to get at that in my screenplay schematic.

David, This is my opinion, also. Clearly JDT was up to something with his visit to the record store and the phone call just prior to his murder. It appears that he was supposed to do something, or prevent something at that time, but failed to do it. Perhaps he was supposed to kill Oswald, or take control of LHO as part of the setup to tie Castro into the assassination, and bring him to where he was to be killed, but a suspicious LHO eluded him. With LHO unexpectedly 'on the loose' he could NOT be taken alive. That risk was unacceptable, so DPD needed an excuse to murder LHO rather than apprehend him. Whatever JDT was supposed to do, but didn't do, IMO required him to be silenced. Possibly he could no longer be trusted. DPD could put out the word that LHO the 'cop-killer' was not to be taken alive. The way it all went down at the theater, LHO thought that he would be shot - and IMO he would have been if not for his yelling "I am not resisting arrest!" Again, just my opinion, but I don't think their desire to make LHO a cop-killer was sufficient to sacrifice JDT had he fulfilled his assignment. One of many alternate scenarios would be that despite plans of others, DPD had no intention of allowing LHO to escape from Dallas. Not good for their reputation. So although this was "not supposed to happen" as far as Martino knew, DPD may have planned JDT's death all along. Tom, Interesting line of thought, much of which sounds right to me. I do think, though, that the Tippit murder was premeditated, not so much by the DPD per se as by Westbrook, Croy and .... uh .... a guy who looked a bit like the "Lee Harvey Oswald" we all think we know, but was wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants in the early afternoon of 11/22/63. I think Westbrook brought the infamous wallet to 10th & Patton and introduced it into evidence there. I think he got the Eisenhower jacket and a .38 revolver from a certain person in a white t-shirt who , again, looked a little like the LHO we all think we know. And I couldn't agree more about Martino and the Cubans. Not to get all melodramatic here, but: WESTBROOK (To Tippit): Arrest him! Tippit gets out of the car and heads around the front toward "Oswald" "OSWALD": Now wait a minute, here... WESTBROOK (To "Oswald"): Shoot him! "Oswald" pulls his revolver and shoots Tippit across the patrol car hood. Tippit falls down and out of the frame. A beat. Nobody moves. WESTBROOK (To "Oswald"): Finish him!

Tom, To me, that sounds like a rumor that might have been circulating among individuals in the exile community. Though the rumor (if that is all it was) does contain a fact not widely known early on -- that being the guy in the theater who was released by the DPD -- which is interesting to say the least. But I don't know about the assertion that the Tippit killing wasn't part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't part of the JFK assassination plan, but it certainly appears to have been part of somebody's plan. EDIT: I see that David Andrews already brought up the point of my second paragraph.. Sandy, If you read the book, I doubt you'd dismiss John Martino as giving birth to a rumor. Do you know John Martin's history? Immediately after the assassination, Martino was a visible face for the 'LHO killed JFK for Castro' gambit. But many years later, he told people what Larry Hancock reported. What was his motivation to do this? As far as "who" had Tippit in their plans, it doesn't mean that Martino's people were planning it. So he would not know about someone elses plans. Compartmentalization. Martino is CLEAR that he was never privy to ALL of the plan. Just the part he was personally involved in. This is another reason that makes him credible. Tom Since Martino wasn't in Dallas practicing skulduggery on the 22nd, it's possible plans may have been changed, or were forced to be altered and improvised. If there was a second Oswald, killing him outside Dallas would have been more desirable than killing the TSBD Oswald in Dallas ASAP, and letting the paper legend of his politics, defection, and Mexico City antics be witness against him. From his removed position, Martino may have conflated the fates of the two Oswalds - one dead and anonymous outside Dallas, the other dead in Dallas and a monument to the DPD's vigilance and patriotism.* *Speaking of which, I can't shake my whimsy (is it only whimsy?) over the TSBD Oswald being nearly rubbed out at a theater, as John Dillinger was. That setup feels like the mythic obsession of a certain ancient agency boss... You know the phrase, "His fingerprints are all over this"?

Duplicate post - please remove, thanks.

I remember that from SWHT - but Armstrong's research on the activities of Capt. Westbrook and reserve officer Kroy of DPD is compelling, given that the two were involved in the well-witnessed "discovery" of an Oswald wallet at the Tippit scene. If the wallet was a plant, how accidental was the Tippit killing? The counterargument might be that the Tippit meeting was accidental, but the killing was ordered by Westbrook to resolve it, and frame Oswald. Yet Tippit's observed actions before his killing - rushing around as if pursuing someone - make the meeting seem a bit less accidental. The Westbrook-Kroy involvement is worth further investigation even if one doesn't accept a second Oswald

An interesting possible correspondence from the John Armstrong article that prompted this thread: If the TSBD Oswald was first observed sitting next to a pregnant woman in the Texas Theater, could it be because he did make contact with a woman on the McWatters bus, as the article posits? In the dark, Oswald might have mistaken the two, and not noticed that the second woman was pregnant when he sat down. The woman on the bus may have told him that his contact at the theater would be her, or would be someone else if she failed to show up - prompting Oswald to next approach men in the audience.

Referring to the Larsen-Hargrove post just above and the diagram in Larsen's link: What if the TSBD Oswald never did a turnabout and walk back to the N. Beckley rooming house? What if he feinted walking east (toward what he didn't know would be the Tippit shooting site) because he didn't want the cab driver to know that he would next turn and walk west to the Texas Theater? This would allow the second Oswald to show up at the N. Beckley house, get the pistol (or pretend to) and the white jacket, and walk in the direction of 10th and Patton. There are variables involved, of course. How would the TSBD Oswald have changed from grey work pants to darker pants? Did the TSBD Oswald acquire a pistol from a man (Jack Ruby?) in Dealey Plaza, as Victoria Adams' acquaintances described? Yeah, I know - Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick...

Found this photo page of Dallas cops interesting, but it may need constructive criticism. Could be of help to some here: https://jfkinvestigators.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/jfk-investigators-identification-project/

Johnny Calvin Brewer interview:

Persons interested in current research into recreating the out-of-body experience in the laboratory may like this book, which I recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Wasnt-There-Investigations/dp/0525954198?ie=UTF8&keywords=man%20who%20wasn't%20there&qid=1464626097&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1 The research encountered by the author (which may not be the only research extant) involves a combination of physical and visual stimulation that excites areas of the brain controlling perception of location, so that the mind perceives the body as located at a distance from its actual placement. Food for other thinking is here, however.

If you read Rick Perlstein's histories Nixonland and The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan, you get an excellent view of how much a puppet Reagan was and how little personal influence he exercised - a striking view given that this is well-researched mainstream work with no conspiracy axe to grind, in which the public facts speak for the nature of the administration. If there is something to the Wanta claims, his mission originated above or beyond Reagan, and was intended for exploitation beyond its stated ends. I heartily recommend these two Perlstein books to everyone here. Doug, you're mentioned in Nixonland, and you may find a lot of interest to you in Perlstein's first volume on the rise of conservatism, which focusses on Barry Goldwater.

One wonders if in 1963 Cuba wasn't peddled as an unnecessary distraction to the Kennedy brothers and to anyone else who needed to be distracted, and also kept an ostensibly hot issue (including the shutdown of anti-Castro groups in the American southeast) in order to stir anti-JFK sentiment. Of course, the Mob would be repaid for Cuba with SE Asian heroin.

I don't want to pick fights, and certainly not with a researcher whose work I respect, but I doubt that radio shows preoccupied with Nazi aliens building the pyramids are the answer to the MSM. If anything, they're a paraphilia intended as an "alternative" palliative for the masses. Viz Alex Jones, surely a future presidential candidate - to speak of, in the year of Trump, a rival alternative palliative. (Anyone want odds on Trump becoming a talk radio personality after the pre-ordained Clinton victory?) The late Mae Brussell, for all of her own non sequitur conspiracy tangents, was closer to an alternative to the MSM. We don't have her like anymore; instead we have Amy Goodman to prove that history comes around again as farce. So this is where Rather ends up, flogging his ancient authority like Ozymandias on some Alien Presence-hour radio show. His hatred for the regime that laid him low has to be tempered - in fear for his own gluteus maximus and those of his loved ones - in order to obscure his past sins supporting the predecessors of that regime. Which means in short that JFK's head still moves violently forward, and that the Kennedys were running a damned Murder Incorporated in the Caribbean.

We ought not to forget that Clint Hill was the only one of the four agents on the Queen Mary's running boards to be seen wearing a bulletproof vest. Perhaps it's time to ask Hill why that is and how often he wore a vest among his other motorcades.

Apparently this is Part II of the Ray McGovern interview at Salon.com, if any are interested. JFK-related content reduced: http://www.salon.com/2016/02/14/this_is_how_the_cia_botched_iraq_post_911_bob_gates_careerist_sycophancy_and_the_real_history_of_the_deep_state/

I would be interested in some pre-Dealey background questions for CH, just to fill in the record: 1) Can you describe how often, and under what circumstances, the limo stopped on Dallas streets before the Main-Houston corner? 2) Can you describe any occasions when JFK got out of the limo and approached the crowd? 3) Can you describe when and why you rode the bumper of the limo before the Main-Houston corner? 4) Did any other Secret Service agent ride the bumper in the Dallas streets? 5) Did anyone approach the limo and have to be warned away or subdued? This would add to the record provided by other agents and to unconfirmed anecdotal history.

If somebody doesn't beat me to it, I can answer that this weekend when I next get near Russell Baker's book. Unfortunately, I can't locate my copy of Russ Baker's Family of Secrets, where I think that guy standing between Nixon and Prescott Bush is identified in a photo caption. I'd like to say it's the other "Jacob Rubenstein" who "worked for Nixon," but I can't be sure. Can anyone ID this guy for Paul?

It's fairly obvious to me that Fritz' reflexes were pretty slow. He was 68 years old in November of '63, which isn't exactly ancient, but he sure looks much older than just 68 to me. Anyway, to think that Captain Fritz would have participated in some plot to allow Ruby to get in there and kill Oswald (and, hence, apply a permanent black eye to Fritz' "legacy" and to his Dallas police force) is a theory that's too ridiculous to even contemplate, IMO. But, as usual, nothing is too ridiculous for most Internet CTers, not even that preposterous theory about Captain John Will Fritz being a plotter. It's fairly obvious that Fritz is not in charge. Neither he nor the other hat-wearing detective are needed out there to direct traffic or control the crowd when uniformed officers are available, yet that is the extent of their performance before and after the shooting. Meanwhile Oswald's entire front is undefended, when he should be surrounded by uniformed cops. This looks like a staged show. Why is there an ambulance on the scene, in the garage area behind the armored car? Were ambulances routinely garaged there?

Who was it that wrote that Walker became inconsequential the moment he survived an assassination attempt - meaning that his not surviving would have been a boost to his allies in the segregationist and anti communist causes. There's a bit of truth in that.

Gerry Hemming claimed to have visited Walker after the shooting and to have been freaked out by Walker leaving his windows unshaded while making Hemming and another sit with their backs to the sniper's alley. He told Noel Twyman (see Bloody Treason) that he suspected Walker's unconcern meant that he had had the shooting staged - but Walker's behavior might just have been a crazy martyr's hubris.

If somebody doesn't beat me to it, I can answer that this weekend when I next get near Russell Baker's book.

Is it possible that Ruby was directed from elsewhere to - in between stalking Oswald in custody - go on a well-witnessed wild goose chase of newspaper ads and billboards sponsored by the Birch Society and other right-wingers in an attempt to blame the assassination on the JBS, and justify his own murder of Oswald as the paranoia of a persecuted minority? Ruby dragged George Senator and others into his anti-right midnight rambles, but didn't bring them near Oswald.

I don't hold any animus toward Jackie, nor judge her for her actions once Kennedy took his head wound, which was traumatic to her, to say the least. But I think her motives for going out on the trunk were only partly out of the solicitousness she showed JFK when he was wounded before frame 313, and largely out of a blind panic to survive. Another woman (Nellie Connally, e.g.) would have pulled her husband down and shielded him in the car, making them each smaller targets. Jackie, as Zapruder shows, pushed Jack's body aside and made for the trunk (instinctively going for Clint Hill?), and - I think - secondarily paused to retrieve brain matter from the trunk once she saw that Hill was going to compel her to return to her seat. It is probable that she knew instantly that Kennedy could not survive such a wound, and believed he was likely dead where he sat. Climbing out on the trunk in panic actually made her a greater target to any "nut" assassin out to kill all the passengers; it's possible, however, that she sensed that JFK and Connally were the true targets, not the wives nor the Secret Service agents. I don't buy the lioness characterization of her at that moment, and the older I get, the less store I put in astrology as a predictor of any kind (this after an intense youthful interest). However, Jackie's actions in wearing the bloodstained suit home - and to the LBJ inauguration, plus her private, verbal comments on the assassination, are credits to her character.

David, I thought Paul Rigby's list was reasonably impressive. "Non one reportng pistol-like shots can place their origin or identify a perpetrator. . " Re Jackie: She was trying to get out of the car, desperate to do so. Do you believe the story that she was out on the turtleback lookng for a piece of JFK's head? If so, then that is your right (of course); but if not, then her attempt to get out of the car, the way she did, is circumstantial evidence she viewed the threat as coming form "the front". When she exclaimed, "They have murdered my husband, I have his brains in my hand". That doesn't sound like a g-knoll quote. DSL David, Rather specious to assume she's not fleeing rifle shots from the front, rather than pistol shots. The exit was to the rear, it was also the direction the disjecta flew, or traveled due to the (minimal) motion oi the limo. The Secret Service (with or without concealed assassination weapons...) was to the rear. Was she to crawl into Nellie Connally's lap instead?

We don't get a history of remarks by Jackie Kennedy that support something other than rifle fire, and Bobby Kennedy's reactions were formed by Jackie's experience. Jackie's few public complaints were about Greer's driving response time. As for Yarborough's statement, Clint Hill ran for the car and the agent opposite him made a move to run and was called back by his superior. Yarborough, two cars behind, doesn't offer anything that seriously conflicts with that. No one reporting pistol-like shots can place their origin or identify a perpetrator, and some of the eyewitness statements (Brehm, Boone) are so imprecisely phrased that they could refer to rifle shots from a distance. Others (the Franzens, Hill) seem to describe the impact noise and disjecta of the head wound. The highlighted portion of Crawford's backfire statement doesn't localize the gunfire noise to the limo area (being that Crawford was a block away), or to the moment of the major head wound. There was more than one comparison made to backfire, and this one is no more revelatory than the others.