Dean Hagerman

Barb

Hey Barb before I can take any of your answers seriously can you spin that yarn again about Groden working for a New Jersey Photo Lab back in 1964 when his first job in the photographic industry was in 1969

Now that would give me more of a laugh then you just gave Jack

Knowing the potential for other films and photos to surface through the years I would believe would be managed two ways.

One would be to try to take an inventory of all cameras in the plaza. At the very least to have some sort of overview of how many cameras were in which area and at least if you've taken count, you have an idea of how many potential films or photos could realistically surface. Knowing who was filming from where would help drive the decision making process regarding what alterations could be done to the film, by knowing in advance who could later come forward with something contradictory.

Two, you would decide that alteration needed to stay as minimal as possible to avoid other films contradicting the alterations done that could surface later.

So the point is valid, but you should assume that whoever could have had responsibility for this would have accounted for this potential in the upfront decision-making process regarding what to alter.

I know that much more elaborate alteration hypotheses are out there, but alteration can be as simple as splices at 155 and 207 and no other film containing that sequence, could something that simple be managed?

It's daunting for sure, but whether it's impossible I'm not really sold on that yet.

Wow

Awesome post Will

Your thoughts that you just posted had never occured to me

You have me thinking

Dean

hesters in wiegman not positive but i believe this was from chris davidson thanks,,,b

Bernice! That is X-rated stuff!

Jack

I have the impression that those who respond to Jim's messages do not read anything he says.

He lays facts out very organized and clearly...then people say they want proof, not what he offers.

Jack

Agreed

And why is the title of this thread allowed?

It is clearly an attempt to mock Fetzers name

Robin

Those are awesome Bell frames you posted!

I have never seen the Bell film or frames that clear

Great job

Dean

OK...here is another one for the naysayers and debunkers and anti-alterationists.

Robin kindly posted an excellent enlargement of a frame from the Bell film allegedly

showing Sitzman, Zapruder, and the Hesters.

What is supposed to be the Hesters seems to be a Picasso rendering of a small

pyramid and a pile of rocks...oh, wait a minute...I am not qualified to say what is

in the image. OK...everyone look and YOU TELL ME WHAT IS SEEN. Fair enough?

Jack

I'm waiting for someone to tell me how I manipulated this image to turn the

Hesters into a small pyramid and a pile of rocks. Surely I have squashed the

dynamic range or pixelated the parallax, or something. Please explain how

I can get such strange results, since you do not see what I see. I am at a loss

to explain why my computer sees things that others cannot see. Please!

Jack

I am getting impatient. Someone please tell me what I did wrong here. Surely

some expert knows. Is that pile of stuff on the grass REALLY THE HESTERS?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Jack

I agree with you Jack

Looks like a pile of rubble to me, the Hesters are nowhere in sight

I have just always thought it was odd that he would leave his wife and run to the pergola.

I have always thought that as well, I would never leave my wife and run into the shelter like Mr Hester does

Thats just crazy, like Brehm I would have coverd my children and if I just had my wife I would cover her or if I thought we should move to the pergola for saftey I would have got her up and ran with her to the pergola

Always been a weird thing to me

Like I said, post some PROOF ....

Proof of Z-film alteration

Craig click on this link for complete proof of Z-film alteration

You can thank me later

Dean

Len you say some people may ask why the is in the JFK section

Well im going to ask, why is this in the JFK section?

I could care less about any 9/11 conspiracy theories

But I do care about JFK, and I do care about Jack White and his work on the JFK assassination

Lets make this thread interesting, who wants to bet me that a certain Mod who closed an important thread for no reason will allow this thread to remain not only open when it should be closed but will not move it from the JFK forum

Any takers?

Its painted in for sure

Horne says...

Each one of these 4096 x 3112 pixel "6K" scans (sometimes called "4K" by the research group because they are cropped) consists of an amazing 12.75 million pixels of information (4096 x 3112=12,746,752 pixels)! And each one of these frames is 72.9 MB in size. (Too big to be transmitted on the internet.)

Wow! the scan is equal to the pixel count of a 160 dollar point and shoot digital camera. Color me impressed!

Can't transmit via the internet? How silly, I do it every day. Ask Dean Hagerman if he can get a 107 mb digital file via the internet?

Horne continues to unimpress

Yes Craig transfered his Moorman Drum Scan to my computer via an FTP website

It takes a little while to download the image, and if you dont know what you are doing or have never used or have an FTP website downloaded you would have to have someone help you set it up and explain how it works

Penn Jones along with Harold Weisberg are two of my heroes

As a kid growing up they had to compete with Larry Bird, Joe Montana and Will Clark

But now they stand alone as my heroes

My most treasured JFK related item is my hard copy of "Forgive My Grief" vol 1 signed by Penn Jones

It's the right page but the wrong printing. It's only in the third printing. Perhaps someone has it and could scan it in. I'll see if I can.

Jack, Could you please upload page 436 of HOAX (2003), which includes a comparison of the two windshields? Thanks.

Hi Jerry.

I like to ask you a couple of questions before i went into detail regarding my improved windshield crack study.

It has been said in your/Barb and Josiah's article that:

John Hunt, working from photos he obtained in the Archives, has come up with an ingenious but simple proof that the “windshield switch theory” is wrong. He compared Frazier’s photo of the windshield taken in the wee hours of November 23rd with a later photo of the windshield taken by the HSCA circa 1978:

As Hunt points out, “cracks don’t go away.” If cracks were present in the windshield when photographed by Frazier on November 23rd while the windshield was still attached to the limousine and those cracks are not present in the HSCA windshield in 1978, then we are dealing with two different pieces of evidence. However, the photos show a marked similarity in the position and number of the cracks. The photos indicate that the two windshields are the same and that the Lifton/Fetzer “windshield switch theory” is wrong.

Can you, or anyone else guide me to the original article from John Hunt's windshield study?

I can't find it here nor on Lancer or Google. Is it hidden in alt.assassination groups?

What i like to see is the whole expert's report from John Hunt about this ingenious but simple proof .

Another question i have is.......what is the source of this photograph taken ca. 1978 for the HSCA:

Ok, i can't find it in my files nor on any other online source (Mary Ferrell).

Who made it and for what purpose?

Thank you forward.

As i said, every help is much appreciated.

Martin

Jim...you must have the wrong page number. The windshield is not on page 436.

Jack

I got you Jim

I have the 1st edition of TGZFH, im having a little trouble finding it, do you know what page its on in the 1st edition?

Do you have the NOVA program on tape or disc?

No Todd, I have it dowloaded to my computer

The entire program is on Youtube if you have not seen it their

Its on David Von Pain's Youtube page under "Who Shot President Kennedy"

Just look at all the motercycle cops, they all had to stop or slow way down when the limo stopped

Im willing to bet that the frames that Nix thought were taken out of his film by the government were the frames that showed the complete stop

Dean, if you think the motorcycle cops stopped you're out of alignment with the alteration crowd. You see, the motorcycle officer who slams on his brakes is James Chaney, the very officer they assume, based solely upon the testimony of DPD and men in the DPD car (with no corroboration whatsoever from witnesses in the Plaza) raced up to the lead car in the Plaza. Thus, the Nix film must be fake in order to prop up that the Z-film is fake.

See how sticky this all is?

All of the cops slammed on their brakes, not just Chaney

And I dont see how sticky it is, do you think I agree with every alteration theory?

All you would have to do is ask what I do and do not believe in when it comes to alteration

You would be very suprised Pat

Just look at all the motercycle cops, they all had to stop or slow way down when the limo stopped

Im willing to bet that the frames that Nix thought were taken out of his film by the government were the frames that showed the complete stop

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

Good call, I was glad Groden put that copy in his "Assassination Films" DVD/VHS, so you could see what the early researchers had to work with

I have a 16mm copy of the film that I purchased from the Citizen's Commission of Inquiry (Mark Lanes organization) in November of 1975.

Very cool Todd

Do you have a working projector?

No, what I did back then was borrow a 16 mm projector from our local Library (my decision to order the film in 16mm rather than Super 8 was based on the fact that I could borrow that projector). I also showed the film at High School. I do have the original screen that I got for Christmas to show the film on rather than just shoing it on the wall or a white sheet.

Thats just cool as hell that you showed the Z-film at your high school back then

I bet the students were shocked and in awe

The first time I saw the Z-film was on the Nova program back in 1988 I remember the head shot over and over again in my head, in my dreams, I could not stop thinking about it

Like me, I imagine all of you are looking at the TV footage from Haiti. Pretty awful. I’m sitting here in my home only about 220 yards from the San Andreas Fault thinking about what would happen with a similar quake here. Last time... the Loma Prieta quake... I was on the Golden Gate Bridge when it hit. I thought I’d gotten a flat tire. I pulled up at the toll station, opened my door and looked back at my left rear tire. It was fine. Then I paid my toll and noticed that all the traffic lights were off on Lombard Street. When I got to Union Street, all my friends were out on the street. That’s when I learned there had been an earthquake.

I live in Northern California as well, although I am far away from the San Andres fault

I felt the 6.5 earthquake that just hit Eureka, it rolled and shook for about 15 seconds here in Redding

But obviously the 6.5 that just hit Nor Cal is already a forgotten memory (except for those in downtown Eureka) in light of the Hati earthquake

And interesting fact from the 1989 Loma Prieta quake, I was at home in Redding watching the World Series, very excited that both teams were from Northern California and that the game was at my teams home Candlestick

I remember Al Michaels talking about Jose Canseco, and I remember vividly talking with my father about who was better Will Clark or Jose Canseco when the screen went green with a TV station we will be right back message

Right after that we heard the book shelfs hitting the wall and felt a very faint rolling motion, it was very faint, we could barley feel it

Then when the game came back on and they showed the lights at Candlestick swaying back and forth my dad and I knew that the quake we had felt had been far away in the Bay Area

Then we stayed glued to the TV all night long watching the images of the city on fire, the Bay Bridge and the Nimitz Freeway

It is something I will never forget, I cant even begin to imagin what it must have been like back in 1906 when the almost 9.0 quake destroyed San Fransisco

Thanks for sharing you memory of the 89 quake Tink

Dean

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

Good call, I was glad Groden put that copy in his "Assassination Films" DVD/VHS, so you could see what the early researchers had to work with

I have a 16mm copy of the film that I purchased from the Citizen's Commission of Inquiry (Mark Lanes organization) in November of 1975.

Very cool Todd

Do you have a working projector?

Very nice article, thanks for the link Michael

In Palamara's list is this:

33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

Can anyone identify Alan Smith? No photos show anyone within 10 feet of JFK at the time of the head shot.

Jack

GinAndTonicMan?

Even though he was more then 10 feet away during the head shot he could have exagerated the distance

One of the two teenage kids seen in Moorman?

Interesting that I have never heard of Alan Smith

A lot. I'll to count them. The Greer "bionic Man" head snap was debunked years ago by James Gordon.

Josiah Thompson

What I first thought of when I noticed this head snap, was that a frame was missing from the time he started turning his head till the time when he is looking at the President, the frame in between these to frames. Would taking said frame out skip a portion of the movement and make the head turn seem super fast?

What's the simplified/short version of Gordon's debunking of the Greer head snap?

Never trust anyone who says something has been "debunked". That is an opinion. Others

may think that the proclaimed "debunking" is bunk.

Jack

Jack is right

There is no "debunking" court that decides if the topic is debunked or not debunked

Tink saying Gordon debunked Twymans research is crazy

Im going to stick with Twyman

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

Good call, I was glad Groden put that copy in his "Assassination Films" DVD/VHS, so you could see what the early researchers had to work with

I will always defend these three for what may have been "illegal" acts which were actually morally and patriotically right.

I agree with that 100%

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

I am aware of Groden's intros to both TKOAP and TSFLHO. But thanks. :-) Let's see, you asked for a name of a lab in New Jersey, I provided more than one cite. You mocked a safe, I provided a quote from Groden, you mocked his working in any film lab in 1964 because you said he was 19 and in the Army .... he was 18 until November of '64, and I cite David, in Pig on a Leash, who tells you Groden worked in a lab making slides after being medically discharged from the Army after less than a year, having dropped out of school and joined the Army when he was a junior in high school.

Oh yes, do lecture me. :-)

Any time you need a leture on Z-film history just ask I will help you