Dean Hagerman

I used Robins nice BDM scan to point out what I see as the "Mother and Child" in Betzner

It even looks like she is holding the baby on her hip the same way

Now I think that BDM was CardiganMan! (In Betzner and Willis)

In Betzner and Willis he was standing up behind the wall with his wife and child

Then he moved down to join Hudson on the steps while his wife and child moved down the wall to the end (that is why we see her image in Moorman)

I would love everyones opinion on this shape

Dean hudson pointed out three men...b

Thanks Bernice, I have read that statement you posted in one of Weisbergs books but forgot all about it

I could have swore I read a statement by Hudson that he only remembered one other man on the steps

I need to look through my dowloads and books

Dean

Dean, when I spoke to Mike Brownlow and Robert Groden in November, I believe they told me that the black couple has been identified, and that their stories will be told in Groden's new book. Now I wish I'd taken some notes.

Thats awesome, if their story fits this scenario then I think it would nail down the BDM mystery

I have always liked Groden (After reading POAL I felt a little different about him but I still respect and like him) and own everything he has ever published/released

I am very excited about his new book and will order it as soon as he makes it avaliable

Here is a clearer copy i have been working on.

Thanks for the clear image Robin

I would have to say that I am 100% sure she is holding a child/infant on the side of her hip, you can see the infants feet hanging down on both sides of the mother

Dean

There is one hurdle in the mother & child = BDM story

The "woman & child" can clearly be seen in Couch, and in one of the Murray photo's in front of the TSBD.

if the man was indeed her husband, than you would expext to see them together in these photo's, but we don't, the Darnell man is no where to be seen.

This bothers me, if the man ran up the steps to protect his wife and child.

In the aftermath photo's they SHOULD still be together. ?

Perhaps the man was on his lunch hour and had to go back to work.

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe he was running around behind the fence and the railroad yard looking for a gunman then rejoined his wife back at their position at the bench after he knew her and the baby were ok

And sorry about giving credit to Duncan about coming up with the theory

Thank you Duncan for the great study on the subject

Thank you Jeff and Robin for coming up with/advancing this subject

BDM has always bugged the hell out of me, I have been looking for an answer to BDM for decades

well it all makes me dizzy.

Jack

It is alot that has to come together, but I think it could be possible

Dean...I did not invent the Gordon Arnold "story". Gordon Arnold did.

Thanks.

Jack

I know Jack, the way I wrote it came out wrong

What I meant is that you found Gordon Arnold in the Moorman Poloroid

That I can accept

I dont believe Gordon Arnold, so I started looking for an alternative

After reading Trasks POTP about Sitzman seeing the black couple on the bench and the coke bottle etc. and seeing Duncans study is when I started to put it together

Dean...you have raised the key point: The Moorman Polaroid DOES NOT SHOW the woman and child NOR the BlackDogMan.

It also shows ALL THREE MEN ON THE STEPS.

IMO, that rules out any mother and child in the corner of the wall.

Jack

Jack I know what you are saying, however I do not believe Gordon Arnolds story

That is why I look for an alterantive for what shape is in that area of the wall and another explanation of what could be BDM

You see its hard to put it together because I have always believed your Badgeman study, but I have always had a problem with Gordon Arnolds story

Im saying your wrong about Gordon Arnold, he could be telling the truth and he could be in Moorman, I just dont believe him

To me this scenario seems to fit

Is it 100% correct? Of course not

But for now this looks to me to be the most possible scenario

Well Duncans study is done with the image in Moorman

But when you look at Willis and see how far down the retaining wall BDM is its not a stretch to say that the woman and child moved down to the very end of the wall by the time Moorman took her picture

And it has always bothered me when it is suggested in Willis that Hudson is completly covered by CardiganMan, I have looked at Willis for years and I still think Willis only shows two people on the steps not three

Could CardiganMan have ran down the steps to join Hudson right before the head shot and in between Willis and Moorman? His shape, or his and his wifes shape making the BDM image in Willis/Betzner?

Remember Hudson said there was only one other person on the steps, even though CardiganMan stood next to Hudson the other man on the steps was right in front of Hudson and he is the one who sat down

I think CardiganMan was only standing next to Hudson for a second or two before he turned around and bolted up the steps

Hudson did not notice him because he was focused on the limo

I hope that clears up where i have taken Duncans study

Having served as Tim McVeigh's defense investigator in the Oklahoma City bombing, I know a little bit about that bombing. This is not just silly. It is preposterous. The federal building in Oklahoma City was destroyed by a bomb constructed of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil... the sort of materials you could buy at your local feed store and fuel depot. This is not controversial. It is simply the unvarnished, established truth of the Oklahoma City bombing.

Josiah Thompson

Wow, I never knew that

Did you ever meet McVeigh?

Being on his defense team how did you feel when he was executed?

Did you think he was guilty or not guilty?

Thanks for the link Robin

Here is Duncans study Jack, I think Duncan is right on with his theory

For once I think Mr. Rigby is correct. Like Greer, Kellerman has SUSPECT written all over him.

Greer's job was to slow the limo and make JFK a sitting duck. Kellerman stole the body at gunpoint, to prevent a professional autopsy.

Two key players in the plot to kill JFK.

For once I agree with Ray 100%

Here you go:

Nice GIF Martin

However I cant stop looking at CardiganMan lifting his leg and turning to run up the steps

I agree with Duncan that he was returning to the end of the retaining wall where his wife and child are

Mom and Baby are BlackDogMan

Sorry to get off topic

Dean

sycophantic supporters.

Thats a very bold and alarming statement Len

In fact I feel like that was directed right at me

If it was directed at me your wrong, I do not need to flatter Jack at all, I am however going to show him my support when he is taking crap from all angles and I agree with his position

You do the same thing with Tink, but I would not say your trying to flatter him, I can see that, its just too bad you cant see the other side of it

you have been drifting further and further away from your fellow CTs for years now,

Pat

That depends on what CTers you are talking about

Because I have evolved with Jacks work over the years

I didnt always believe in alteration, but after 13+ years of study I believe Jack is correct

I am willing to take what ever is dished out to me because I believe in alteration

But I believe in alteration with all of my heart, trust me Pat when I say that it was no "jump on the band wagon" type deal with me, when I first read "Bloody Treason" back in 1997 until now I have studied alteration almost exclusivly and Jacks (and others, you know who you are) work has helped me to not only understand but accecpt alteration

So in my case Jack has been drifting closer to what I believe in, not further away

Dean

I see what you are saying and your right I would never sell it, but I do like the fact that most of the books I own are rare and have value

I was thinking about sending it to Twyman, alot of my books are signed by the author and some even inscribed to me personaly

So now my mint condition copy that I bought back in 1997 will be worth much less, thats awesome

Well at least my favorite book on the assassination will be able to be read by those who refused to pay $100.00+ for the book or didnt buy it when it was released

Barb are you the one behind all the rain im getting right down I-5 from you?

Remember that Redding is close to Oregon when you do your rain magic

We'll make an anti-alterationist out of you yet.

Can't you get your alterationist friends to straighten up and fly right?

Ray I dont care if they use 20 quotes in each post, it does not bother me

I however know it makes people mad, so I will try harder to shorten the quotes with only the info needed in them, or not use them at all if I am in a one on one debate

However like I said before sometimes I will use the entire quote if I feel it needs to be used

[quote name='Will Emaus' date='Jan 20 2010, 06:10 AM' post='179857'

Sorry...

Okay Will. You are new to the forum and therefore entitled to some slack.

YOUR thoughts are always appreciated.

Holy cow Ray!

This is the 21st century, dont you know how to delete the right amount of quote bars?

then by all means re-post mine.

then by all means re-post mine.

then by all means re-post mine.

Hows this look?

Where is my delete button Ray?

I cant seem to find it

I guess because I quote posts some of the time (in Rays fantasy land I quote every post every time in full) it must mean I know nothing about the assassination

Thanks Dean, I'm still a rookie at most of this but the more I think about it I just can't imagine a conspiracy scenario without controlling the visual record. The possibility of alteration not matching films that surfaced later is valid, but how could you have multiple shooters and leave to chance the possibility that someone filmed them?

It just seems to me that having some operation to control the visual record would have to be part of a conspiracy scenario, and if so then the need to alter, even if alteration is just defined as controlling what is seen publicly, has to exist too...

Good call Will

Now that would give me more of a laugh then you just gave Jack

Gee Dean, by my quick count, your post consisted of 48 lines of text.

But only 3 lines were your own words. All the rest was REGURGITATION.

So You are not really a poster here. You are just a REGURGITATOR.

By actual count, your post consisted of one line of quotation and three lines of nonsense.

Please list the quotas for

1. regurgitation

2. quotations

3. nonsense

Jack

Good point Jack, all of Rays posts are 100% nonsense

Ray knows I know how to shorten quotes or not use them at all, but instead of talking about real issues like the Hester pile of rubble in the Bell film that you have found he goes on and on about quotes and how to use them

Maybe from now on I will quote all of Rays posts in triple

Gee Dean

Wrong Ray