Todd W. Vaughan

What was updated? Thanks.

Stoughton was in the motorcade in Camera Car 2. In that photo left to right are the Newmans, CBS cameraman Tom Craven, WH cameraman Tom Atkins, and witness Cheryl McKinnon. Stoughton took photos at Love Field on JFK's arrival, in the motorcade, at Parkland, at Love Field of the arrival of the casket, and on Air Force 1 of the swearing in.

And once again Bill Miller proves my point that some people are able to put a price on their principles. Let me ask you a question, Bill. Do you think Harold Weisberg would have taken that job? Didn't Robert Groden turn the job down? That's what he said. Principles and values, I guess. Or making it up.

"what matters more is the head shot... and the historical reality that frontal shots and a likely conpsiracy was the result of the HSCA investigation." The HSCA concluded that there was 1 shot from the front, not "frontal shots". Why would you claim otherwise? Todd, He didn't make that claim. Read it again: "what matters more is the head shot... and the historical reality that frontal shots and a likely conpsiracy was the result of the HSCA investigation" In what part of that passage does he say that the HSCA itself concluded that a frontal shot struck the head? Martin, Read what I wrote again. I never said that he said “the HSCA itself concluded that a frontal shot struck the head". Todd

"what matters more is the head shot... and the historical reality that frontal shots and a likely conpsiracy was the result of the HSCA investigation." The HSCA concluded that there was 1 shot from the front, not "frontal shots". Why would you claim otherwise?

Jim, I'd guess he's referring to either the colon you placed following his name or your placing the full-stop period outside of the right quotation mark, where the placement inside or outside of the quotation marks varies between the UK and the US. Todd

All, The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up. Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints. Todd I've often thought the same thing, Todd. But there's something weird about the trim, too. It isn't mentioned on the form on which Montgomery and Johnson submitted the bag and bottle. They supposedly brought it in to check for fingerprints, but then supposedly never got around to it, and only sent it in to the FBI as an afterthought. Fingerprint manuals say windows and window trim are the first places one should look for fingerprints, so what's the Dealey-O? I've also tried to spot from where on the window this trim was removed. Are you aware of any photos that show where it was removed? Thanks, Pat Pat, I think (and I stress think) I might have the CSS for the piece of wood. I'll have to look and that might take a while. I don't know of any photo showing specifically showing the missing trim, but there is 1 or 2 photos of the snipers nest showing a hammer and what could be a piece of trim lying loose on the inside ledge of the window directly next to the open one. Todd

All, The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up. Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints. Todd

Bill, This doesn't account for Baker's original first-day affidavit nor the statement that O.V. Campbell made to the press regarding seeing Oswald in a utility cupboard on the first floor shortly after Baker and Truly had entered the building. There was another reason for the change in Baker's affidavit that took the encounter from the 3rd or 4th floor down to the 2nd. I just don't know what it is. Baker states that the man he ran into was walking away from the stairs (no mention of doors, cokes and lunchrooms) was in his thirties and wearing a light brown jacket. Backed up by the witnesses outside the TSBD who saw a man in the window. If the Jack Revill TSBD list was made in the TSBD by speaking to employees and William Shelley then there is evidence that Oswald possibly gave the officers his name and address before leaving and was vouched for by somebody. Truly claims he vouched for Oswald to Baker but perhaps the vouching didn't take place on the 2nd floor. What if the vouching took place on the first floor around 12:45pm and it resulted in Oswald being let loose? Truly moving the encounter to the lunchroom served a purpose. As did Baker reinforcing it by changing his recollections. What was it? Lee I'm well aware that Baker's first report places the encounter on the fourth floor, but I also think, based on everything I can learn about him and his filmed interviews, that he appears to be a good cop that wouldn't lie to fit a cover story, and what I am using as evidence is the evidence used by the WC to frame Oswald - and all three - Baker, Truly and Oswald agree that the encounter occured in the lunchroom which is on the second floor by the coke machine. Now if you look at the youtube of Baker, he says that he saw Oswald "walking away" from him but he saw him through the window in the door. If Oswald had gone through that door, he wouldn't have seen him at all because the door would have been partially open and Oswald would have made the left and not have been visible through the window, and if Oswald had gone through that door, Truly would have surely seen him and didn't. Now you don't want to believe Baker, Truly or Oswald then there's nothing to believe. I believe Baker and I believe the encounter took place, and I believe the door was closed and Baker saw Oswald in the vestibule through the window moving from right to left into the lunchroom and Baker followed him there. Everybody has thresholds of belief, and what will change their minds, but to me this is the key that exonerates Oswald from being the Sixth Floor Sniper, and the quest to find someone else who did that shooting, someone who also had a reason for being in the building at the time, someone who either stayed behind and calmly moved boxes around (as seen by Ms. Mooneyham and confirmed by the Dillard/Powell photos), or somebody who was an acomplace to the shooter who did leave immediately, but still wasn't Oswald. In order to understand the reasoning behind all this you must read the first thread and the chapter in the book that I reference - Michael Roffman's Presumed Guilty, who first recognized this point. Howard Roffman. Thank you Todd. But you're taking Duke's job. How do you get around Roffman's work? Gary Mack says that Oswald just went down the steps quickly and just missed Dougherty and the two secretaries, like the Keystone Cops. Howard Roffman went on to become the personal secretary to a major motion picture director and to publish a photo book of gay couples. BK Bill. One thing is that Roffman made a mistake in his analysis of the Couch film. He says that Baker is not visible running to the TSBD when in fact he is. The result of his error was putting Baker into the TSBD too quickly. Dougherty's testimony is a mess. I suspect he was headed to or on the elevator going down when LHO passed the 5th floor landing. The two secretaries went down after LHO. Todd

Bill, This doesn't account for Baker's original first-day affidavit nor the statement that O.V. Campbell made to the press regarding seeing Oswald in a utility cupboard on the first floor shortly after Baker and Truly had entered the building. There was another reason for the change in Baker's affidavit that took the encounter from the 3rd or 4th floor down to the 2nd. I just don't know what it is. Baker states that the man he ran into was walking away from the stairs (no mention of doors, cokes and lunchrooms) was in his thirties and wearing a light brown jacket. Backed up by the witnesses outside the TSBD who saw a man in the window. If the Jack Revill TSBD list was made in the TSBD by speaking to employees and William Shelley then there is evidence that Oswald possibly gave the officers his name and address before leaving and was vouched for by somebody. Truly claims he vouched for Oswald to Baker but perhaps the vouching didn't take place on the 2nd floor. What if the vouching took place on the first floor around 12:45pm and it resulted in Oswald being let loose? Truly moving the encounter to the lunchroom served a purpose. As did Baker reinforcing it by changing his recollections. What was it? Lee I'm well aware that Baker's first report places the encounter on the fourth floor, but I also think, based on everything I can learn about him and his filmed interviews, that he appears to be a good cop that wouldn't lie to fit a cover story, and what I am using as evidence is the evidence used by the WC to frame Oswald - and all three - Baker, Truly and Oswald agree that the encounter occured in the lunchroom which is on the second floor by the coke machine. Now if you look at the youtube of Baker, he says that he saw Oswald "walking away" from him but he saw him through the window in the door. If Oswald had gone through that door, he wouldn't have seen him at all because the door would have been partially open and Oswald would have made the left and not have been visible through the window, and if Oswald had gone through that door, Truly would have surely seen him and didn't. Now you don't want to believe Baker, Truly or Oswald then there's nothing to believe. I believe Baker and I believe the encounter took place, and I believe the door was closed and Baker saw Oswald in the vestibule through the window moving from right to left into the lunchroom and Baker followed him there. Everybody has thresholds of belief, and what will change their minds, but to me this is the key that exonerates Oswald from being the Sixth Floor Sniper, and the quest to find someone else who did that shooting, someone who also had a reason for being in the building at the time, someone who either stayed behind and calmly moved boxes around (as seen by Ms. Mooneyham and confirmed by the Dillard/Powell photos), or somebody who was an acomplace to the shooter who did leave immediately, but still wasn't Oswald. In order to understand the reasoning behind all this you must read the first thread and the chapter in the book that I reference - Michael Roffman's Presumed Guilty, who first recognized this point. Howard Roffman.

I find the Nagell information very intriguing. I agree. There was so much more that he could have told, and what we have been able to decipher has been dead on. Keep in mind that Nagell said LHO was involved in the plot "up to his ears".

I find the Nagell information very intriguing.

Good grief Bill, you make it sound like you didn't even read the article. Myers quite obviously "drags you into it" because after dealing with Don Thomas's outright deception of the facts of Wes Wise allegation regarding T.F. White and Carl Mather, Myers then has to deal with Thomas' claims that Mather's connection to Collins Radio is "particularly disturbing because Collins Radio was a front for the CIA," which is sourced to Anthony Summers which in turn is sourced to none other than YOU. So of course Myers deals with your Collins Radio issue. Stop acting like Myers singled you out for some nefarious reason. The fact is that Myers is reviewing what Thomas wrote and Thomas brought it up.What do you expect him to do, ignore it? God forbid he do that, you'd be all over him about it, as you have in the past.. Excuse me, but my name nor my work, nor the work of Tony Summers is footnoted nor mentioned in Don Thomas' book or chapter on the Tippit Murder. If Myers wants to deal with my research and articles on Collins Radio and its connections to the assassination of President Kennedy or the murder of JD Tippit then let's discuss it, but why entwine it with Thomas' book? My DC COPA presentation, the publication of the article in Backchannels and my update of the article on the Collins Radio Connections were all written over a decade ago, so why does Myers suddenly bring it up here and now, and confuse it with Thomas' book, which I agree with Myers is not an accurate portrait of the evidence in the murder of JD Tippit. I'm glad Thomas doesn't cite my work or Summers' work, because I don't think Thomas has a handle on the Tippit murder evidence or witnesses, though I agree with him that the official story is wrong. But why would I even want to entangle my work with Thomas', who I believe doesn't present the best evidence in the best fashion, or Myers, who I believe intentionally attempts to decieve people with the way he approaches the murder of Tippit and attempts to portray it? Both of these guys are wrong, one being a wildly speculative Conspiracy Theorists and the other being a narrow minded Lone Nutter, both with preconceived notions of what happened at 10th and Patton and false perceptions of who Lee Harvey Oswald was and what he did that day. I am well prepared to discuss my work, my research and my articles, but I won't do it on Dale Myers false terms, wrongfully implicating me with Don Thomas, who I have appeared with once at a COPA conference but never talked to or communicated with, and trying to ride my work on the back of his speculative thoeories that I disagree with. My Collins Radio Connection has been out there for over fifteen years and finally Dale Myers gets around to trying to debunk it, using Don Thomas' weak soap box as the place to do it? No, Good Grief, give me a freakin' break, will ya? You want to deal with me, and what I wrote? Deal with me. Dale Myers wants to deal with my work then deal with me, don't go dilly dallying and dancing around Don Thomas. The very week Dale Myers book came out, I read it and discussed it with a criminal justice class that I was asked to give a talk to about the Kennedy assassination. I pointed out to the class the very aspects of the book that were intentionally deceptive, then a week later, the class flew to Dallas and I introduced them to Wes Wise, who took them on a tour of the assassination sites in Dallas, including the El Chino Mexican restaurant in Oak Cliff. I also met Dale Myers at the Sixth Floor gift shop where he was signing copies of his book, and I asked him about the Wes Wise - White incident, and when he denied its signifiance, I pulled a copy of Tony Summers' book Not In Your Lifetime - off the shelf - (who says they don't carry conspiracy books?), and I pointed out the signifance, which he apprently still denies. That night, with the criminal justice class and Tink Thompson, I attended a program at the 7th Floor with some of the reporters who covered the assassination, including Wes Wise, who later became a mayor of Dallas. In any case, Dale Myers has known all about the Collins Radio Connection and my research, and the references in Tony Summers' book for over a decade, and I don't appreciate him mixing it up with Don Thomas' stuff because I don't think Thomas has a handle on the Tippit murder, and should stick to the scientific and acoustical evidence, where he is on more firm ground. So Todd, my old train mate, if you or Dale want to discuss the Collins Radio Connections then lets do it, but don't confuse people any more than they are after reading Dale's book, or Thomas' work, since I'm not mentioned in either, and I prefer it that way. Bill Kelly http://jfkcountercoup.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/collins-radio-connections/ Bill, You wrote; QUOTE ON "...Excuse me, but my name nor my work, nor the work of Tony Summers is footnoted nor mentioned in Don Thomas' book or chapter on the Tippit Murder..." QUOTE OFF Well Bill, I've got news for you despite your claim to the contrary the work of Tony Summers is most certainly footnoted and mentioned in Don Thomas book and chapter on the Tippit murder. And that Summers reference is to one William Kelly. You are William Kelly, correct? Here's an excerpt from p.529 of Thomas' Tippit chapter in Hear No Evil: QUOTE ON Carl Mather worked at Collins Radio in Richardson, Texas. 134 This information is particularly disturbing because Collins radio was a front for the CIA. This was revealed when a ship leased by Collins radio was used in Operation AMTRUNK, a raid by CIA trained anti-Castro exiles on Cuba.135 QUOTE OFF Footnote 135 mentioned above is on page 535 of Thomas' book and reads… QUOTE ON 135: Collins Radio and the REX: in Summers (1998) p.405. Collins Radio was involved in top secret Naval communications systems work through its vice-president, Henry C. Bruton. Bruton and his wife were family friends of the deMohrenschildts who on one occasion brought Oswald to meet the Brutons at their home (Epstein (1978) pp.183-185) QUOTE OFF Page 405 of Tony Summer's 1998 book Not In Your Lifetime contains footnote 35 which reads… QUOTE ON Note 35: The author is indebted to researcher William Kelly for his summary of this episode. Kelly points out that the owner of the car in question, aside from being a friend of Tippit's, worked for Collins Radio in nearby Richardson, Texas. That same month, Collins Radio had received publicity in connection with its lease of a ship, the Rex, involved in a CIA operation to land commandos in Cuba. Alleged assassin Oswald had been introduced to a Collins executive, retired Admiral Chester Bruton, by George deMohrenschildt. (Research supplied to the author by William Kelley; and see deMohrenschildt references in this book.) QUOTE OFF How did you ever miss this? Todd

It would be helpful if YOU had read the damn book. It would also be helpful if Myers "...told his readers" that what he is spouting concerning the content of Thomas' work is "error-riddled" and a "load of crap." Concerning the Olsen episode, Thomas states that in Olsen's Warren Commission testimony he "claimed that he took the day off because of a broken leg. But hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before. And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." Hear No Evil page 515. You can only make your point by insisting on pulling the wool over people's eyes. Ain't that right, Dave? It all certainly becomes blindly ideological when you 100% agree with one of your hierarchy's articles when you haven't even read the work that he is endeavouring to debunk. If everyone on this board didn't already know how non-existent your honesty is when it comes to the issues then this post of yours would be well and truly laughable. What does Myers say? "That’s how he [Olsen] happened to be moonlighting on the day of the assassination; acting as a guard at the property of an elderly woman located on Eighth Street, two blocks from the Stemmons Freeway in Oak Cliff." But what does Myers leave out? "According to Olsen he spent the day guarding an estate, but could not remember the name or the address of the estate....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment [Kathy Kay Coleman whom Olsen was having an affair with]" Hear No Evil page 515. As Thomas points out, and he uses the work of four researchers who went to look for this elusive estate, "there were no estates on Eigth street, or anywhere else in central Oak Cliff, a rundown neighborhoood where many of the residents are minorities...[Penn] Jones of Midlothian Texas drove to Oak Cliff and searched the area for the alleged "estate." Jones assures us that there were no estates on Eigth Street within several blocks either side of Exing, and in fact, no "estates" anywhere in the neighborhood." Hear No Evil page 515-516. Why don't you, and Myers, get on ebay and see if you can get a good deal on some honesty that may come in useful when representing, and trying to take the piss out of, someone elses work? Thomas is once again misleading the reader and distorting the record in this case, and you’re helping him. Thomas claims “…hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before” (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesn’t cite any such “hospital records”. Instead he cites the Warren Commission testimony of Harry Olsen himself and that of Olsen’s girlfriend Kathy Kay Coleman. Their testimony makes it clear that Olsen broke his leg twice. The first time was before the assassination; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Mr SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg? Mr OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap. Mr SPECTER. When did that occur? Mr OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before. Mr SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated? Mr OLSEN. Baylor Hospital. Mr SPECTER. Is that in Dallas? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir; it's on Gaston. (14H629) The second time was after the assignation; Mr SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston? Mr OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident. Mr SPECTER. When did that car accident occur? Mr OLSEN. December 7. Mr SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital? Mr OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks. Mr SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision? Mr OLSEN. I rebroke my leg. Mr SPECTER. In the same place? Mr OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest bone. Mr SPECTER. Indicating your sternum? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs. Mr SPECTER. What hospital were you in? Mr OLSEN. Methodist.( 14H634) Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to Oklahoma City? Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there. Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly? Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole. Mr. SPECTER. When you say "totaled," you mean a total wreck? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain? Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye. Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Where? Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital. (14H653) Trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas claims “And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesn’t cite any employment records, and Olsen told the Warren Commission that he was working light duty at the DPD; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Still further trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas writes; “....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment” (Hear No Evil page 515) This is classic Thomas, misleading the reader into thinking Olsen lied and forgot he had claimed he had a broken leg when he testified that he walked to Coleman’s apartment. But here is what Olsen really said about this; Mr SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Walked. Mr SPECTER. How far was it? Mr OLSEN. About 4 blocks. Mr SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. Mr SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee? Mr OLSEN. A little bit, not much. Mr SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though. Mr SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now, what was the question? Mr SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay's house, what did you do then? If jumping the gun and making assumptions ever become Olympic events then I'm sure Team U.S.A. will have no trouble finding it's gold medal winners. Who is helping anyone with anything? Were you this picky with the details when Posner's book came out? The fact is Myers DOES NOT represent Thomas' book in either a respectful or scholarly way. He leaves many things out, as is his MO. I simply filled in the gaps. Would you like me to go through the rest of the damn article and do the same thing? Answer me a question then Mr. Know-it-all. You claim that Thomas is wrong about the hospital records. That Olsen actually broke his leg twice. Actually, to get factual on the matter, if you break your kneecap you haven't broken your leg. You have actually broken your kneecap. Just thought I'd point that out because you like to portray the image of someone who likes to get the details right. Anyway, you then use Olsen's testimony to prove this proves Thomas wrong. The only thing that would prove Thomas wrong would be the medical records of Olsen. Alternatively, we can believe what you believe, in that Olsen broke his kneecap, went to work on crutches, took only one day off from work that just happened to be the assassination, was quite obviously knocking a slice off of one of Jack Ruby's strippers, before walking to an "estate" we don't know the address of and no one has been able to subsequently find, whilst at the estate he's moonlighting on the biggest day in DPD history as a security guard even when ALL leave was suspended for that day and this is all done within a few blocks of where his friend JD Tippit is gunned down and killed. You, Todd, don't expect me to call out Myers for leaving out stuff and not do the same with you, would you? The only thing you have cited as a rebuttal to Thomas' work is the testimony of Harry Olsen. Why not give us something a bit more substantial? Tell us the address of the estate that Olsen was hobbling around as a one legged security guard? He seemed to forget the address. Maybe you know more than he did? You write: "The only thing you have cited as a rebuttal to Thomas' work is the testimony of Harry Olsen." And that's all Thomas did. And he got it wrong.Had you checked Thomas; citations, you'd have found the same thing. I guess you don't get it. Some people never will. Have a great day. Your misplaced superiority complex kicking in again? I take it you don't know where this elusive "estate" was then? I take it your business hires one legged security guards? I take it you don't know that people in the U.K. live in a different time zone and our day is actually long over and it's nearly time for bed? Have a great night.

It would be helpful if YOU had read the damn book. It would also be helpful if Myers "...told his readers" that what he is spouting concerning the content of Thomas' work is "error-riddled" and a "load of crap." Concerning the Olsen episode, Thomas states that in Olsen's Warren Commission testimony he "claimed that he took the day off because of a broken leg. But hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before. And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." Hear No Evil page 515. You can only make your point by insisting on pulling the wool over people's eyes. Ain't that right, Dave? It all certainly becomes blindly ideological when you 100% agree with one of your hierarchy's articles when you haven't even read the work that he is endeavouring to debunk. If everyone on this board didn't already know how non-existent your honesty is when it comes to the issues then this post of yours would be well and truly laughable. What does Myers say? "Thats how he [Olsen] happened to be moonlighting on the day of the assassination; acting as a guard at the property of an elderly woman located on Eighth Street, two blocks from the Stemmons Freeway in Oak Cliff." But what does Myers leave out? "According to Olsen he spent the day guarding an estate, but could not remember the name or the address of the estate....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment [Kathy Kay Coleman whom Olsen was having an affair with]" Hear No Evil page 515. As Thomas points out, and he uses the work of four researchers who went to look for this elusive estate, "there were no estates on Eigth street, or anywhere else in central Oak Cliff, a rundown neighborhoood where many of the residents are minorities...[Penn] Jones of Midlothian Texas drove to Oak Cliff and searched the area for the alleged "estate." Jones assures us that there were no estates on Eigth Street within several blocks either side of Exing, and in fact, no "estates" anywhere in the neighborhood." Hear No Evil page 515-516. Why don't you, and Myers, get on ebay and see if you can get a good deal on some honesty that may come in useful when representing, and trying to take the piss out of, someone elses work? Thomas is once again misleading the reader and distorting the record in this case, and youre helping him. Thomas claims …hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesnt cite any such hospital records. Instead he cites the Warren Commission testimony of Harry Olsen himself and that of Olsens girlfriend Kathy Kay Coleman. Their testimony makes it clear that Olsen broke his leg twice. The first time was before the assassination; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Mr SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg? Mr OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap. Mr SPECTER. When did that occur? Mr OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before. Mr SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated? Mr OLSEN. Baylor Hospital. Mr SPECTER. Is that in Dallas? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir; it's on Gaston. (14H629) The second time was after the assignation; Mr SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston? Mr OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident. Mr SPECTER. When did that car accident occur? Mr OLSEN. December 7. Mr SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital? Mr OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks. Mr SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision? Mr OLSEN. I rebroke my leg. Mr SPECTER. In the same place? Mr OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest bone. Mr SPECTER. Indicating your sternum? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs. Mr SPECTER. What hospital were you in? Mr OLSEN. Methodist.( 14H634) Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to Oklahoma City? Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there. Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly? Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole. Mr. SPECTER. When you say "totaled," you mean a total wreck? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain? Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye. Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Where? Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital. (14H653) Trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas claims And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesnt cite any employment records, and Olsen told the Warren Commission that he was working light duty at the DPD; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Still further trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas writes; ....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment (Hear No Evil page 515) This is classic Thomas, misleading the reader into thinking Olsen lied and forgot he had claimed he had a broken leg when he testified that he walked to Colemans apartment. But here is what Olsen really said about this; Mr SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Walked. Mr SPECTER. How far was it? Mr OLSEN. About 4 blocks. Mr SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. Mr SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee? Mr OLSEN. A little bit, not much. Mr SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though. Mr SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now, what was the question? Mr SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay's house, what did you do then? If jumping the gun and making assumptions ever become Olympic events then I'm sure Team U.S.A. will have no trouble finding it's gold medal winners. Who is helping anyone with anything? Were you this picky with the details when Posner's book came out? The fact is Myers DOES NOT represent Thomas' book in either a respectful or scholarly way. He leaves many things out, as is his MO. I simply filled in the gaps. Would you like me to go through the rest of the damn article and do the same thing? Answer me a question then Mr. Know-it-all. You claim that Thomas is wrong about the hospital records. That Olsen actually broke his leg twice. Actually, to get factual on the matter, if you break your kneecap you haven't broken your leg. You have actually broken your kneecap. Just thought I'd point that out because you like to portray the image of someone who likes to get the details right. Anyway, you then use Olsen's testimony to prove this proves Thomas wrong. The only thing that would prove Thomas wrong would be the medical records of Olsen. Alternatively, we can believe what you believe, in that Olsen broke his kneecap, went to work on crutches, took only one day off from work that just happened to be the assassination, was quite obviously knocking a slice off of one of Jack Ruby's strippers, before walking to an "estate" we don't know the address of and no one has been able to subsequently find, whilst at the estate he's moonlighting on the biggest day in DPD history as a security guard even when ALL leave was suspended for that day and this is all done within a few blocks of where his friend JD Tippit is gunned down and killed. You, Todd, don't expect me to call out Myers for leaving out stuff and not do the same with you, would you? The only thing you have cited as a rebuttal to Thomas' work is the testimony of Harry Olsen. Why not give us something a bit more substantial? Tell us the address of the estate that Olsen was hobbling around as a one legged security guard? He seemed to forget the address. Maybe you know more than he did? You write: "The only thing you have cited as a rebuttal to Thomas' work is the testimony of Harry Olsen." And that's all Thomas did. And he got it wrong. Had you checked Thomas; citations, you'd have found the same thing. I guess you don't get it. Some people never will. Have a great day.

Good grief Bill, you make it sound like you didn’t even read the article. Myers quite obviously “drags you into it” because after dealing with Don Thomas’s outright deception of the facts of Wes Wise allegation regarding T.F. White and Carl Mather, Myers then has to deal with Thomas’ claims that Mather’s connection to Collins Radio is “particularly disturbing because Collins Radio was a front for the CIA,” which is sourced to Anthony Summers which in turn is sourced to none other than YOU. So of course Myers deals with your Collins Radio issue. Stop acting like Myers singled you out for some nefarious reason. The fact is that Myers is reviewing what Thomas wrote and Thomas brought it up.What do you expect him to do, ignore it? God forbid he do that, you’d be all over him about it, as you have in the past..

Myers clearly shows how Thomas deceives his readers with half-truths, bogus citations, unsupported claims, wild speculation, omissions of fact, and just generally wild and bizarre claims. So yes Jim, by all means, ignore that. Yawn, yawn away. In fact cover your eyes - don’t actually read what Myers wrote. Cover your ears - don’t actually listen to anyone who challenges your boy Thomas. And by all means cover your mouth - don’t actually offer up anything that challenges what Myers wrote. Yes Jim, see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil about your buddy Don Thomas.

It would be helpful if YOU had read the damn book. It would also be helpful if Myers "...told his readers" that what he is spouting concerning the content of Thomas' work is "error-riddled" and a "load of crap." Concerning the Olsen episode, Thomas states that in Olsen's Warren Commission testimony he "claimed that he took the day off because of a broken leg. But hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before. And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." Hear No Evil page 515. You can only make your point by insisting on pulling the wool over people's eyes. Ain't that right, Dave? It all certainly becomes blindly ideological when you 100% agree with one of your hierarchy's articles when you haven't even read the work that he is endeavouring to debunk. If everyone on this board didn't already know how non-existent your honesty is when it comes to the issues then this post of yours would be well and truly laughable. What does Myers say? "Thats how he [Olsen] happened to be moonlighting on the day of the assassination; acting as a guard at the property of an elderly woman located on Eighth Street, two blocks from the Stemmons Freeway in Oak Cliff." But what does Myers leave out? "According to Olsen he spent the day guarding an estate, but could not remember the name or the address of the estate....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment [Kathy Kay Coleman whom Olsen was having an affair with]" Hear No Evil page 515. As Thomas points out, and he uses the work of four researchers who went to look for this elusive estate, "there were no estates on Eigth street, or anywhere else in central Oak Cliff, a rundown neighborhoood where many of the residents are minorities...[Penn] Jones of Midlothian Texas drove to Oak Cliff and searched the area for the alleged "estate." Jones assures us that there were no estates on Eigth Street within several blocks either side of Exing, and in fact, no "estates" anywhere in the neighborhood." Hear No Evil page 515-516. Why don't you, and Myers, get on ebay and see if you can get a good deal on some honesty that may come in useful when representing, and trying to take the piss out of, someone elses work? Thomas is once again misleading the reader and distorting the record in this case, and youre helping him. Thomas claims …hospital records show that Olsen broke his leg in a car accident on December 7th, two weeks after the assassination, not before (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesnt cite any such hospital records. Instead he cites the Warren Commission testimony of Harry Olsen himself and that of Olsens girlfriend Kathy Kay Coleman. Their testimony makes it clear that Olsen broke his leg twice. The first time was before the assassination; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Mr SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg? Mr OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap. Mr SPECTER. When did that occur? Mr OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before. Mr SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated? Mr OLSEN. Baylor Hospital. Mr SPECTER. Is that in Dallas? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir; it's on Gaston. (14H629) The second time was after the assignation; Mr SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston? Mr OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident. Mr SPECTER. When did that car accident occur? Mr OLSEN. December 7. Mr SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital? Mr OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks. Mr SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision? Mr OLSEN. I rebroke my leg. Mr SPECTER. In the same place? Mr OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest bone. Mr SPECTER. Indicating your sternum? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs. Mr SPECTER. What hospital were you in? Mr OLSEN. Methodist.( 14H634) Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to Oklahoma City? Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas. Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there. Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly? Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole. Mr. SPECTER. When you say "totaled," you mean a total wreck? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain? Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye. Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized? Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Where? Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital. (14H653) Trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas claims And his employement records show that he worked Thursday, the day before the assassination, and again on Monday, the first regular working day following the assassination, taking only Friday off to nurse his bum leg." (Hear No Evil page 515). But Thomas doesnt cite any employment records, and Olsen told the Warren Commission that he was working light duty at the DPD; Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no. Still further trying to bolster his claim that Olsen did not have a broken leg at the time of the assassination Thomas writes; ....forgetting he had a broken leg, stated that he had walked to the estate, which was supposedly on Eigth Street, only four blocks away from Coleman's apartment (Hear No Evil page 515) This is classic Thomas, misleading the reader into thinking Olsen lied and forgot he had claimed he had a broken leg when he testified that he walked to Colemans apartment. But here is what Olsen really said about this; Mr SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Walked. Mr SPECTER. How far was it? Mr OLSEN. About 4 blocks. Mr SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way? Mr OLSEN. Yes, sir. Mr SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee? Mr OLSEN. A little bit, not much. Mr SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though. Mr SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay's house? Mr OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now, what was the question? Mr SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay's house, what did you do then?

Bonnie Ray Williams was eating a chicken sandwhich on the 6th floor and Harold Weisberg used to be a chicken farmer. Sounds like you're onto part of the conspiricy here.

What is tha supposed to mean?

Pat, Refresh my memory - what evidence did Kinney find and remove from the limousine? Todd

Thanks Robin. Want to come back to initial idea of the Topic. Here some 50 frames stable. The monstrous challenge of this stable process was to get rid of the forth and back rotation in each frame of this Bell film sequence. Give it a while to load cause it is over 8 MB. I'll do some nice blowup crops next cause the original is double sized Also a "Queen Mary stable version" will be done. best Martin Martin, I see what I think is SS Agent McIntyre on the left-rear running board of the Secret Servie Follow-Up Car apparently taking a piece of gum from his mouth and throwing it away on Elm, and SS Agent Landis on the right-rear running board drawing his pistol. Todd

"These are excellent books--with the exception of WITH MALICE, where I recommend THE SEARCH FOR LEE HARVEY OSWAD" Yes, because THE SEARCH FOR LEE HARVEY OSWAD is such a thorough study of the Tippit shooting. How absurd.

Hi Robin Edit for correction: That would be McLain and Courson how both drove away. Martin FWIW, this is one of the pictures that destroys Thomas' argument McClain was at the corner at frame 175. Although McClain supposedly raced to the corner, here he is 150 feet or so down the road, riding by Courson, who was far behind him BEFORE he supposedly started racing. This leads Thomas to conclude McClain raced to the corner before the shots were fired and then slowed to a crawl afterward. Bunkum. Exactly. Thomas would have us believe that in 30 seconds McLain only covered 120 feet or so. Absurd.

In your Betzner 1 that's Chaney closest to the limo and Jackson next to him. Both maintained their positions through the turn onto Elm Street and can be seen in the Z film in the sprocket area. Both also stopped on Elm right after the headshot. This can be een in Nix, and their helmets can be seen above the car in the foreground in Weigman. Chaney then took off down Elm and was followed by Jackson. Both went up to Stemmons and on to Parkland. It's CVhaney shown in Altgens.