Bernice Moore

Here are a few photos that may help.

B

Have deleted some of the previous photos..

Here are a couple of photos, from Tosh's area....one from his approximate view.

Also a view from the Records building roof..

Also a map from where the possible shooters were.

....but they do not show a possible shot

from the north end of the fence, that you could possibley draw in, if you or anyone

is interested in doing so.......also the

possible shots from the West end of the TSBD...I do have some further info, but

not yet..

Ashton, will get back to you, I am busy as well ..Do appreciate your time

and work on your drawings...

The Terminal Tower I see as being way too large, and not back far enough, and

the two men if they were responsible for a shot, would have been down right at the north end

of the fence..The one from the street sewer is seemingly the wrong angle somehow..

The photo I am posting of the Plaza shows those two indented ends on the bridge, as it appeared at that time,

the blind spots from anyone who was standing on the bridge. Also one of the post office size in relation to

the other buildings...

Thanks again for a your input, appreciated..

B..

Bernice....an interesting mass of information.

However, you quote several people saying OLIVER STONE HAD

ELM STREET REPAVED. I think this is untrue and a myth perpetrated

by someone. I was there during the filming, and the street was NOT

freshly asphalted. Fresh asphalt is almost black. Weathered asphalt

is a medium gray. It would have been very obvious in the movie

it the street was fresh asphalt. Besides, such repaving would be

very expensive and serve no purpose, and would have to be done

by city crews. I am sure Gary Mack can confirm that Stone did not

repave the street.

Someone should put this myth to bed.

Jack

*************

Hi Jack:

Thanks....for the information..

Thought, some people have their asphalt drive ways, I believe it is called

resurfaced in the spring, or early summer weather.....we do up here..

It is not a new asphalt covering but more of a

rolled on surface covering, it seals, and helps to prevent the fissures and cracks from

spreading..and in away it does appear to be fresh and new for a short while...

I am wondering if that is perhaps what they meant. No idea..

Another of the those urban legends..

All......If they will attach,here are two photos showing what the height used to be, with the book,

and the build

up of the asphalt over the years...as seen a few years ago.

All are very welcome, thank you....

B

John...Mr. Walker seems intent on making your forum an inhospitable place to

those he does not like. He suffers from a personality disorder for which he should

seek professional help. Or maybe he should take out his venomous hostility in some

vigorous exercise like wrestling or boxing.

Jack

One of the more unusual requests for help I have read. However here is the help page you need you poisonous old man

"you poisonous old man"

uncalled for.. imo....

Test My Lord it worked, I emptied the history, all offline content, deleted files, and refreshed, and

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

This may or may not be of any interest, but what I believe I may see ..

QUOTE

Bernice: "One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??"

Ashton Quote :"My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.".....B:always......

*******************

My thoughts on the Zapruder and the Nix films, are as follows....at this time.

There were frames cut out of the Zapruder film as well as the Nix....therefore they are both altered...changed.....to what was their true state.....once touched they became obsolete within the studies, in trying to solve the assassination in the area....of the head shots.... as we do not know, exactly where, nor how many frames were exorcised....therefore to try to study the assassination and the head shots within, becomes a exercise in futility.....as well as frustration...

That, I am thinking is the why it was done.... that with some frames, several, one or two whatever , if they were cut out of the Zapruder as well as the Nix and in the crucial head shot areas..and we do not know positively that they were not.......we may have no possibility of proving nor solving the assassination in that particluar area, ever...Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the films, photos and all.....I have become a collector..

Why would they hold the Zapruder film as they did as well as the Nix, which as was not released..either..?.......Oh ,perhaps for want of a better word, so that we would be completely taken in by them..

Our need being so great as well as our our exuberance, when they finally were, that we would and did throw caution to the wind.....We choose to overlook, what we perhaps saw as any faults within, until some researchers began their studies within.....Perhaps we were thinking, now that we had the films the case could be solved...........exactly as they knew all would......??

It sure did not work out that way, and has done nothing but cause more dissension ....as intended, I believe.....The Zapruder wars have been raging ever since....

I do not know, positively, but they played and continue to play the game, and they also only release what they want us to see and hear....at any given time...

Just some thoughts...

***************************

In studying.....Just : The Dealey Witnesses & Parkland:

The eye witnesses information from Dealey Plaza, along with the Doctors, Nurses, Clint Hill, and others that saw the head wound at Parkland along with their medical first day statements at the hospital....

They Comply...

In studying .......Just :

The Zapruder film, along with the findings of Betheda and the autopsy..They Comply....

In studying......

The later witness that came forth some years later with their siteings and information re Bethesda, such as Dennis David, and O'Connor.....Comply with neither...

There appears to be three separate scenarios..but never correlating .....together...and never will..

That in imo, is where the many problems lie, in all, and why the forever dissent which causes the intended divisions amongst the JFK researchers, and the way it was all deliberately set up..to enact that discord......

By doing so, we are fulfilling, exactly what their well laid plans intended...imo..

***************************

Below is the RR Toolbox, ( see white box on left, at back in the Marguerite Oswald photo) that Ed Hoffman spoke of where he saw from a distance a RR worker, catch a rifle thrown to him by the man that Lee Bowers mentions, that you have inserted in your re-creation, at the North end of the fence...along with the younger man, the man then turned and walked back along the fence.....Bowers I believe mentions the RRworker in the general area, but no specifics...in his taped interview with Lane..

"Bowers testified that at the time of the motorcade on November 22, he was located in the Union Terminal Tower in the railroad yard.(182) When asked what people he noticed standing between the tower and Elm Street at the underpass on the high ground, Bowers stated that he saw two man standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other.(183) One of them was middle aged, heavy set, and was wearing a white shirt and dark trousers.(184) The other man was in his mid-twenties, wearing either a plaid shirt or a plaid jacket.(185) Bowers said those two men were directly in his line of vision toward the mouth of the underpass and appeared to be watching the progress of the motorcade.(186) Bowers said he saw the man in the white shirt standing there at the time of the shots, but that he could not see the younger man in the plaid clothing because of the trees, which made him harder to distinguish.(187) "

"Bowers said that at that point a motorcycle officer ran up the incline toward the trees in the general area of where the two men were standing;( see two fence Officer Hargis areas photos ) Bowers said there was some kind of commotion at that place, but that he did not know what had happened.(188) "

See also view of Bowers below...

Link further below.

**************************

Roof of Post Office Annex Building..Jesse Price

In the Mark Lane video, as close as I can relate to you, as I am not able to capture the frames from the videos, perhaps some day....

..Jesse Price is seen and it appears to be perhaps towards the middle of the Post Office Terminal Annex Building roof, south side of Dealey..( see Map below ) .along with Mark Lane "Rush to Judgement" video, he sits on the edge, and points towards the middle of the fence area, in that general area, where about Hatman and the smoke is seen...and speaks of a young man running from that specific area, with something in his hand, he also mentions that it could possibley have been a radio...He runs across the tracks, towards the railroad cars ,turning and then disappearing out of site, but down towards the street that leads towards the back of the TSBD...You have hatman in your re-creation...in that general area, I believe, where the smoke is seen approximately..but I believe he needs to be moved more towards the middle of the fence somewhat...??..but not according to the Nix clip ??..when shown the spot that he saw the smoke drift from, by Sam Hoffman he, and Mark Lane seem to be standing between trees, and just to the left perhaps ten-to fifteen feet or so, of the last sign..looking from behind the fence, leading to the underpass, Sam also states that is approximately where he saw JFK take the hit to the head..

*********************************

Smoke:

After studying the smoke again , in the photos, it appears to be drifting, and I am thinking that is the reason it appears so large, it is dissipating, there was a wind that day in the Plaza, it would not have appeared as such when it first left the barrel..but the wind would have carried it..

Mr. Holland. There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. Stern. What number would that have been in the -

Mr. Holland. Well, that would - they were so close together.

Mr. Stern. The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. Holland. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth.

Tom Dillard, photographer, Mrs. Earle Cabell..Mrs.Donald Baker, P.O Earle Brown, and Cong.Ralph Yarborough..also said they smelled graphite.

Saw smoke:at top of the grassy knoll the picket fence north of Elm St..

On the Overpass: Sam Holland, James Simmons, Richard Dodd ,"Rush to Judgement"...Walter Winborn ,and, Thomas Murphy "Cover Up".. Austin Miller ,WC Vol.XXIV p.217,

Clemon Johnson also standing on the triple underpass, did not see the smoke from the trees, he did mention exhaust he saw, clarifys in "No More Silence"..he did not look at the grassy knoll, he kept his eyes on the limo, until it left the Plaza.The exhaust he saw was on the street.. Others were looking at the knoll, he was not. The FBI in their report stated that Richard Dodd didn't know where the smoke came from..But Johnson, sets this right...."Holland and Dodd, if both were living today, they'd almost fight you that they saw smoke coming from out of those bushes. They swore that they were looking right at the bushes at the time." he also tells about how Dodd and Holland ran to some bushes saying, "The shots came out of those bushes". so much for the FBI....Johnson also confirms what Dodd says in the video "Rush to Judgement"...

Some think the smoke could have been exhaust from say the motorcycles in the motorcade, there was what has been called a rather stiff breeze that blew north to south, that gusted at times to 20 miles an hour.The exhaust would have been blown further south of any of the bikes.It would not have blown north to the trees and the fence at the top of the knoll.

Cheryl McKinnon sitting on the grass at the foot of the knoll looked back over her shoulder at the fence and saw smoke. Rosemary Willis was standing on the south side of Elm looking in this direction at the time, said she also saw smoke in this area..( see photo of smoke Bill Miller.).

**********************************

Jean Hill I believe mentions the DPM with a rifle in hand, in her book, "The Last Dessenting Witness"..in the approximate area in general where the Badgeman, shooter was located which you have inserted also, I believe she mentions, he was just standing there...

*************

Shot from the right:

SSA Clint Hill:"On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile."

SSA Paul Landis: "My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front right hand side of the road."

Officer Bobby Hargis motorcycle squad DPD..

He testified: "...At the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me...There was something in my head that said that they probably could

have been coming from the riailroad overpass , because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood......I was just a little back and left of.....

Mrs. Kennedey, but I didn't know........I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge,

and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time..."..

He then came back down jumped on his motorcycle and " rode under-neath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if he

could see anyone running away from the scene......." VI, 294-6

" I looked over to the TSBDB, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was......seemed to be looking

up at the building, or anything, like they knew where the shots were coming from ..........

Some people looking out of the windows up there

didn't seem like they knew what was going on........About the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge.....and I thought

maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle"..6H 295

****************************

Shot South side Overpass....

(See photo showing Tosh area of gunsmoke, by J.Dolva, croppped..and also photo of the North end, where the bridge angles in, similar on both sides, and hidden from veiw...where Hargus ran to)

Bill Grote, is correct, will post The Cancellare where it shows approximately where Tosh thought a shooter could have been, the far corner he thought re the parking lot, that general area, on the South side...

Doug Weldon, in his research also found what he believed to be the trajectory from the south corner of the Overpass that accounted for a possible throat entrance frontal shot, in the same general area..... his work is in the book "Assassination Science"....as the Limo turned the corner onto Elm and proceeded down the hill, the angle of such, for a time, is straight on and pointed towards that corner of the overpass...as it moves along the curve ,there was a direct clear shot without windshield, Jackie nor anyone nor anything in the way...as it travelled down Elm.........according to his research..it was possible...but I believe Doug's work found that trajectory from the farthest corner of the Overpass, but in the same general area..as where Tosh smelled the gunpowder.....

Both far corners of the Overpass are completely hidden from view, according to Tosh's and Dougs.....information..and a photo below dhowing the North end......I believe. Tosh stated on a later visit to the Plaza, he went over that area and he does relate, this info on this Forum, that there is a blind spot, hidden from all, who would have been on the bridge at that time.... an angle that turns inward on the Overpass railing..at that spot........but the ground there is lower on the South side.....it was in this general area, that they smelled the gunsmoke...

I have a photo showing the other North end, which would be approximately the same view, showing the fence angle turning in, in connection to that side, where Officer Hargis climbed to peer over, btw, which is close to the drain seen behind the fence...

Some also smelled gunpowder on Elm Street...as they turned the corner and travelled down the hill in the general knoll area ...the mayors wife, for one, Mrs.Cabell also mentioned such.

*****************************

Drains

See photos:

(The two men are Penn Jones and Bob Groden...below in photo, the other is a Garrison investigator..)

Other areas where research has been done, is the Drain at the North corner of the fence, and the sewer drain on Elm street...

The drain at the north corner was researched by Penn Jones and Jack Brazil ( they researched all the drains ) also Jim Garrison and some of his men they were all over that area...in 67..along with them...John Judge also looked into them with Penn Jones.....I will post a photo showing the drain possibilitys....at that time.

About the sewer drain on Elm Street on the North side of the street....Tom Wilson, studied this area as well as Gregory Burham, and Robert Harris, also John Judge has his comments below....the researchers all found the trajectory of one of the shots to the head, was from a upwards angle, that came from below JFK....?? Their studies were done separately, some years apart ....the sewer drain on Elm at that time, was by no means as it is now, the road was completely recovered with a fresh layer of asphalt by Oliver Stone for the movie JFK, which of course brought the height up, as well as over the years toppings, you will see the differences.. the old drains as you will see and read, were able to have a man stand within, there was also a sewer system that Penn and Brazil and his men, crawled through which came out to the Humber River drain, a huge entrance ,exit system...of such...I am including the following information for your studies...from an earlier compilation...

I have also read that Jack Brazil has a map of the Dallas sewer system, perhaps if still alive and responding, he may be able to

supply such...I have never been able to obtain his email address....if he has one...and never been able to locate him...perhaps that would be much easier for another member.

..also I do not have Tom Wilson's information, no one does..... he is in a episode of TMWKK, and goes through all his research......for the viewers......he was a former U.S. Steel scientist...his work was never published though he did present a copy of all to the HSCA, I am thinking, or the ARRB...?.gone right now.......it has disappeared and is not found....his findings which were years ahead are similar to the findings of some contributors in "Assassination Science.".....

Gil Jesus wrote this below I believe in 2005....there is a map from Gregory Burham's research that also ties into his research....re distances and angles from the Elm St. sewer...below.

""However, some have suggested (myself included) in the last several

years that the fatal shot came from a storm drain on the north side of

Elm Street. This storm drain is located at an approximately 12 degree

angle and 70 feet to the right front of where the fatal shot hit the

President. Its trajectory angle would explain the location of the right

rear occipital/parietal exit wound. It would explain the spraying of

the police officers to the left rear of the car (they were sprayed so

hard that one of the officers, Bobby Hargis, stated afterward that he

initially thought he was hit). It would explain the Harper skull

fragment's location to the left rear of the car. And finally it

explains the back and to the left direction of the head movement in

harmony with the aforementioned evidence..""

*****************

Jack Brazil thought, that a shooter could have crawled up from the connecting pipes from a different location and crawled back after the shooting. He would not have to climb into the manhole before and climb out after.He would get there from connecting pipes...to Elm Street..

No link.

more data.

Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:42

Posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk

By XXXXXXXXXXX

Early information.

City workers had the sewer opened behind the tool shed today. It appears

to be a standard sewer in that the round opening is the top of the bell.

The sides are built with brick and had iron rungs for climbing down. The

pipe at the bottom was covered with mud and debris but it appeared to be

12-15 feet deep and about 4 feet in diameter.

Tom Bowden

The Conspiracy Museum

No link working now, not found..

*********************************

Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:55:11 -0400

From John Judge

To: treefrog

Ed,

I missed the earlier part of this exchange but have always believed the fatal shot came from the storm sewer on Elm Street to the right front of the motorcade. This was not from speculation or photo angling. The letter from Ed T, whoever that is, hits the nail on the head. I used to crawl down in the sewer with Penn Jones in 60s and it is quite different today. For one thing, the bottom has been filled in (note the flattening of the pipe opening at the bottom) and the opening that used to come up to my armpits now only reaches my waist. Oliver Stone repaved the street for his film and considerably reduced the size of the opening onto the street. It was more than ample and wide for the head shot. And Penn Jones, Jim Garrison and other critics placed the shot there from reports by witnesses and the physical evidence. It was Mark Lane in the late 60's who tried to move everyone up to the Grassy Knoll.

Earwitnesses heard a completely different sound from the last shot fired, one saying it echoed as if in a sewer.

Also see Livingstone " Killing the Truth"..

***************************

Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.

A shot from the Grassy Knoll would have reached JFK's head at a downward angle, exiting from the base of his skull, and driving him down into the seat as it sent him backwards. A close examination of his reaction in both Zapruder and Nix films shows that he rises up from the seat as he is thrown back at over 100 mph. The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below.

Brain matter and skull fragments explode upwards and travel back and to the left with great velocity at the moment of impact. Jackie later revealed that she picked up a portion of skull on the left rear of the car behind her seat, before being pushed back in by Clint Hill. A portion of skull was found near the curb on the south side of Elm, nearly 30 feet behind the position of the car at the point of the fatal shot and across the street.

Officer Billy Hargis was riding his motorcycle to the left rear of JFK's limousine and witnessed the head shot. He was quoted in the Warren Commission testimony saying that he was hit so hard with a skull fragment through his leather jacket that he thought he had been hit by a bullet. He looked down to see he was covered with blood, stopped and got off his motorcycle, and said "Am I hit?" He later parked the motorcycle over the opening of the sewer and ran up the Grassy Knoll with other witnesses. Quoted in the Dallas Morning News on the 30th anniversary of the assassination, Hargis recalled the event and said the brain and blood matter arced up and came down on him. Again, all this is more consistent with a shot from below and to the front.

The storm sewer is a good hidden location, one that a military sniper would choose. Penn Jones crawled through the pipes and discovered that going west along Elm leads to the vertical pipe that opens behind the Grassy Knoll fence near the overpass, and going across Elm and to the east leads to a grate in the basement of the Dallas jail. He yelled out when he got there, but no one responded.

The sewer shot was rarely mentioned by researchers or the public after Lane focused on the Grassy Knoll, but a few of us kept seeking the evidence. Subsequent "tell all" books by alleged participants usually repeat the standard locations, the TSBD window or the Grassy Knoll, for verisimilitude. A book published in the 1990's, long after it would have been fashionable to lie about the sewer location, titled Treason is My Daily Bread, by Mikhail Ledbedev, reveals his role in a plot involving Nazi intelligent agent Reinhard Gehlen to kill Kennedy in Dallas, and mentions that he was sent to shoot from the storm sewer. He may be covering for the real assassin in this, but by picking the sewer location he adds credibility to his account in my view. There are many other indications that Gehlen and his cold war spy network that formed our CIA were part of the JFK assassination conspiracy.

In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.

John Judge

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

Russ Files: Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses

Report SCA..1979..

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm

Alphabetical list of witnesses and testimony....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

There may be other areas I do not know of, that have been researched or reported, this information may help you..and others.....whether there were shooters in each and everyone of these areas , and if they actually fired, ? I do not know...

Below there is also a photo of a view to Zapruder and Sitzman, from the fence...

*************************************

John Dolva: and others, you may be interested in this Report from W.Anthony Marsh..

Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll

© - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh

Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from the

grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.

However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would indicate

that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at Z-313 came from

the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive proof of a head shot

from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of circumstantial evidence

which strongly suggest that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Some of

the examples are well known, but need to be reexamined.

The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.

Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies, such

as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President Kennedy's

head around the time of the head shot. They note that President Kennedy's

head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite that as proof

of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and everyone else has

failed to do is analyze the movements of all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limousine, including the Connallys. That is what I have

done.

My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is not,

unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film as used

in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements in 1/60th

of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder frames 312

to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The Grassy Knoll

Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the center of the

window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front edge of his

reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the reference line

to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not use unadjusted

measurements from these prints to calculate precise positions, but can

estimate relative movements. This may be due to a variety of factors, such as

variations in printing and copying each frame, changes in perspective,

mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames are too blurred to allow

accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie Connally's position is to

the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of John Connally's position is

to the front edge of his forehead. Each measurement of Jackie Kennedy's

position is to the front edge of her pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's

position is to the edge of his hair at the rear of his head. All measurements

were lined up against the chrome strip in the background for better contrast.

Be sure to remember that increasing measurements for the Connallys represent

forward motion, while increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent

rearward motion. Notice the direction and amount of movement of each person

listed in Figure 1. Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all

four were hit by bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement

must be caused by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the

limousine having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1]

that the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply

decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that

Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off the

accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from an

average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head shot.

Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust forward in

relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further evidence of

this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move forward while

President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not done a similar

analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start of the occupants'

forward movement, so I would urge others to do so themselves, in order to

verify my results and observations. Figure 1.

Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z313 145 111 87 38 152

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z314 147 113 88 39 151

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z315 151 113 92 33 157

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z316 148 115 93 34 166

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4 rearward 11

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z317 150 117 100 30 177

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z319 153 122 NA 28 182

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 0 forward 4 forward 3 rearward 14

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z320 153 126 130 25 196

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z321 157 NA NA 26 195

Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select

Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my opinion,

the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest entirely on the

acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful for establishing

the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds after the

microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4 shots on the

tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and 145.61

respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and Aschkenasy to be

recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses which was rejected by

HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked at the waveforms more

closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of each shot was recorded,

to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate for each shot is 137.702,

139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can get a general idea of the

spacing between shots by subtracting one time from another. But there is an

additional variable which must be taken into account. BBN found that the

recorder used that day was running about 5% slow, so all times must be

multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore the original spacing. A more

accurate correction factor might be borrowed from the work which W&A did on

the grassy knoll shot. They found that a correction factor of 1.043 produced

the best fit for echo delays compared to their predicted model. Another

possible corroboration for the 1.043 correction factor is the 'bell' sound

found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd Vaughan believes that it is only

electrical interference, if we can determine its true frequency, we can

derive the most accurate correction factor. That holds true for many other

sounds on the tape, such as car horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN

found that the 'bell' sound had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to

the note A, which is usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might

have been tuned to A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was.

Most people have assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train

bell, a ship's bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a

couple of other possible tunings which would produce a correction factor

close to 1.043. If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament

scale, it might have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would

give us a correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an

old English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a

correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing

between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle

blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those into

Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames. Figure 2 is

a rough approximation of how many frames there were between all 5 muzzle

blasts.

Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and

depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the

bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as

matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first shot

after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President Kennedy

and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the last shot

with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the head shot came

from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the head shot came

from the grassy knoll.

Figure 2.

origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame

TSBD 137.702 162 176

> 1.566 1.633 29.89

TSBD 139.268 192 206

> 1.071 1.117 20.44

TSBD 140.339 212 226

> 4.556 4.752 86.96

Knoll 144.895 299 313

> 0.713 0.744 13.61

TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first shot

is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and clearly

President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The first shot

was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at around Z190-

192. The problem with that is that we can see President Kennedy in the

Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not yet appear to be

reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no indication that

Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that time, nor at about Z-

210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA rejected.

My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range of

Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of Z-226

to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of the

Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove exactly

when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their back

wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and mine,

regardless of other evidence.

Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as matches

with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the TSBD as

matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350 shows a crack

on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6, but is seen in

Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot from which direction

caused that crack. I believe that I am the first person to notice something

in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you look carefully at CE350, you

will notice that the back of the rearview mirror is dented, but you can see

that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6. This damage was caused by a bullet

fragment which struck the windshield from the inside and ricochetted into the

rearview mirror. Many people believe this fragment came from the head shot,

which would been fired from the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to

the limousine, consisting of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview

mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find

evidence which pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show

that it came several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the

Zapruder film, Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the

windshield was not cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the

last shot from the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield.

In turn, that would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll.

I seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when

the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered

photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could

only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented at

Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.

Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version or

mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA

admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll shot

was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the impulses

to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is indicated in

brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The jiggle analysis

measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To simply and clarify,

I have put the groups into ascending order. The group with the largest

amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B', etc. I have chosen

the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are usually midway

between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames

per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data

Frames Group

158-159 D

191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not

227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.

290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before

313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.

331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle

137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B

139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1

[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C

144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1

145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2

The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot

occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy knoll.

Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot hit

what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he

heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact had heard

the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would not, in and of

itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the dent could have

been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would narrow the range

during which the chrome topping was dented to between Z-313 to Z-331 and make

it more likely that the chrome topping was dented at the same time that the

windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier as some have speculated.

On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the

statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the grassy

knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the direct path of

gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that the head shot came

from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the TSBD. Emmett Hudson,

who was standing on the steps leading up to the pergola, said that the shots

sounded as if they came from behind him, above his head and to his left. That

would place the origin near the fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had

come from behind him and whistled past his right ear. Between these two

witnesses and behind them is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable

shockwave at 24 ms. before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot.

Assuming the weapon was aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough

calculation of the velocity of the bullet and the resultant angle of the

shockwave. Although the calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too

difficult for me, a rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet

at about 1564.5 fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on

either side of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within

the cone of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.

How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it had

been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have been

outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not have been

recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can be found in

the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he was shown a

very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the viewpoint was

looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary Moorman's position, the

gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In Moorman 2 we can see the head

of a man peering over the fence, about 9 feet from the corner. Interestingly,

this is the same spot where W&A located the origin of the grassy knoll shot,

unaware of the existence of Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view

of any weapon as we might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever

this man was, he moved from that position very quickly after the head shot.

There is no one there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton

photograph, taken shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has

never been analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were

unaware of its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I

found it at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to

properly analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal

the presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher,

Dale Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a

person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.

Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films. Some

fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize the

danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the grassy

knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave whizzing past

them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe their reactions

was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can see Hudson and his

two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola. They do not seem to be

reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see that two of the men are

reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men would not have reacted to the

sound of a shockwave coming from so close behind them. If the grassy knoll

shot was the miss before the head shot, we would expect to see these men

react before the head shot. The fact that they did not react until after the

head shot would seem to indicate that the head shot came from the grassy

knoll.

Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is more

likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing evidence can

and should be examined further. More information can be gleaned from existing

data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data could provide new clues

and allow us to verify certain methods, such as the acoustical studies. I

urge other researchers to look for new evidence and perform new analyses.

------

1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University

Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.

2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16.

..Thanks for your time....

B

Hello Ashton,

Your welcome as all are, if I have anything that may possibley help in anyway...

It was the cement wall to the right of the steps, some call the BDogM area, not the fence,

I think that may be too high, in your re-creation..when compared with the photos.?

There also was a RRman, seen in the yard...before, and after I do believe...such

as could be seen within the Badgeman photo, to the side of the rifleman...Bowers

was not the only one who mentions him.

But, ? it is somewhere in the witnesses statements...could have been the one seen eventually

by Ed Hoffman, who broke

down a rifle, and loaded it into the RRBox, at the extreme North end of the fence

by the underpass...picked up his tool box and walked away over the railroad tracks ...

And was it Jesse Price ? who was on the roof of the Post Office , and worked there

that saw a young man

run from the area of where hat man has been seen in the Nix film, with something in his

hand, he ran over the tracks, and down towards in the direction of the back of the TSBD..

Re your re-creation, I have never noted that anything but the hat was seen, moving and then

disappearing within the Nix film.?

Also there was only one that I can recall now, perhaps Jack will help with details, he may

recall...when Jean

Hill proceeded to the top of the steps, and beyond to the parking lot, she saw a DPM,

to her right holding a rifle...towards that end of the fence...where Badgeman is seen.

I think that was mentioned ?

Below, I copied verbatim from Mark Lanes tape,

."Rush to Judgement: note SS Forrest Sorrels info

that Nix also mentions..

Mark Lane: "Mr.Nix .Where were you on November 22nd ?.."

Orville Nix: "I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston "..(Sts).

Mark Lane: "And did you take any pictures of the Presidental Limousine as it went through Dealey Plaza ?.."

Orville Nix: "Yes, I had taken pictures before and after --before and during the assassination "..

Mark Lane: "And you know of course that your pictures were used by the Government to determine where the limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "Yes "..

Mark Lane:"And did you deliver a copy of your film to the Federal Government ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, I delivered a copy of my film to the Federal Government about December 1st "..

Mark Lane:"About a little over a week after the assassination ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, my film got lost in the processing plant !"..

Mark Lane: "Where is the original film ?"..

Orville Nix: "The original film --uh--belonged to United Press International .The Government has a duplicate copy "..

Mark Lane: " Where is that copy ?"..

Orville Nix: " In the Archives"..

Mark Lane:"And is that the duplicate copy which was used by the Warren Commission determining along with other films, the Muchmore film and the Zapruder film where the Presidential limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "I would say so"..

Mark Lane: "Well you now have a copy, of your film which you were kind enough to show to us this afternoon .Is that copy the same as the original that you gave to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: " I would say, No--- there is some films maybe missing---some --uh--frames--uh--some of the frames were ruined "..

Mark Lane :"Does the film which you have at the present time ,have the same number of frames as the film that you delivered to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: "--uh--I would say No--but its' cause of loosing maybe a --uh--frame --uh--here and there "..

Mark Lane :" At the time of the shots were fired ,did you look at the Book Depository building ?"..

Orville Nix :" No"..

Mark Lane : " Did you think ,at that time ,that the shots came from the Book Depository ?"..

Orville Nix : "No, I thought it came from a fence --uh--between the Book Depository and the Railroad Track"..

Mark Lane:"--uh--Did anyone else ,who you know, that you've spoken with ,also believe that the shots came from there "..

Orville Nix: " Most everyone thought it came from the fence behind the Book Depository "..

Mark Lane :"Did you have the occasion to speak with Forrest Sorrels ---who is of course a friend of yours ,and is the Secret Service agent in charge of Dallas that day ?"..

Orville Nix:" Yes, I did "..

Mark Lane : "Did he tell you where the thought the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " He thought they came from the same place"..

Mark Lane : " Which is ?"..

Orville Nix: "Behind the fence"..

Mark Lane : " At the present time where do you believe the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " Well they came from the Book Depository because there's proof it did come from there "..

Mark Lane :" I see---and this you've read in Newspapers and you've read the Report ?"..

Orville Nix :" Yes,--er-- I believe the Warren Report"..

*****************************************end of his interview on tape****

I do think that re Police Dept officers, are they not trained, in the reverbration of the sound of shots?

and the knowledge of the direction of where they are coming from .Was it Motorcycle Officer Hargis,? that

dropped his bike and can be seen standing looking over the fence in Cabluck's photo, he was the first to reach

that North end of the fence overpass..I believe he mentions, to him it sounded as though it came from that direction.

I do believe there were simply too many people, in the area further down Elm, as well as in the immediate

area, who saw and ducked as shots came over their heads, and or towards them, as Mary Moorman relates

and they felt for safetys sake they needed to get down on the ground....all cannot be in error....only after that did the Motorcyclist

park his bike and run up the hill...not before, and not all followed him immediately, some did within a pause

seemingly after the shots ceased, and yes they did eventually follow him...and some, ran up the steps to the parking lot, not all, you can see within the photos, some people did not follow...and we must I think keep in mind, this was all within seconds, not minutes, this took place and was over very quickly....so I personally do not see the actions of lemmings, if so then why did not everyone from the Elm & Houston corner also run, in that direction ? Perhaps because there were shots from different shooters in different spots, and others heard what they took to be shots from other buildings and or areas.....

I don't believe they would put all their eggs in one basket..this was no fly in that day, event.....by second rate shooters....nothing it appears was second rate.....they would not limit themselves to only one shooter, imo, in case he missed, and or something went wrong within his spot....there had to be more than one or two, IMO..JFK was not going to leave Dealey Plaza..alive..

One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??

I have also read that in

a court of law, the witness testimony is taken over any photographic evidence, but that could have been

in error, as I simply do not know, for sure...and or changed by now..

When you state that all has been and is, words to the effect,

completely screwed up, I agree whole heartedly, and that is the way, they presented all and do so deliberatley, and today as well......

We must I believe keep in mind what we have be told many times, the Government only releases what they want you to see and hear......nothing more......and in their own good time, which makes it all the more difficult to discern between facts and fiction and altered information......and as a result here we are 43 years later, still trying to thrash it out..

Your work in the re-creations are well done, and like say a detective you are creating what you believe to be plausibe scenarios and then persue what could be theories associated with such perhaps, in searching for the truth...but only by looking at all imo, can that hopefully be accomplished.......if possible at this late date....please carry on.

Thanks B..

Hi Ter:

That I agree with...J.R's great research, he was a friend to many, all you had to do was ask..

As well as the Parkland trauma team's findings..a blow out to the back of the head...they were the first trained medical witnesses, as well as Hill and others who saw such...but

which upon the bodys arrival at Bethesda, though it was also seen, it had become much larger in size..according to witnesses.....Though you would never know it by the autopsy photos, or the Bethesda Doctor's reports..imo ...nothing is in stone in the JFK assn...it should

have been from the beginning but.....and it all changes according to whomever's latest whims at times.

B..

****************

Ashton,

Here's another for you.. This is the area where Sam Holland and the RR men, ran to, saw the footprints and saw the smoke

drift out, from under the trees.....it is now called the Hatman area..a possible spot from where a shot

came from. His head, does appear, move and disappear......in gifs of the film, Nix I believe, there is movement..I cannot post any Gifs...

But this will show you the approximate area....behind the fence, another for you to contemplate.

This is all I can fit in for now.....

B..

THe photo below written where the smoke came from, is part of Bill Miller's research in this area.

The amount of smoke is almost too large for a normal gunshot, IMO and so maybe Ashton is on to something that the puff was to distract attention - magician style....although I also am inclined to believe some shot or dart or something was headed from near the fence toward Kennedy's neck or head.......the people who planned this assassination obviously thought through every possible thing and how to counter it being discovered or to mask it with a decoy / diversion / etc. I'lve always felt that just about every building and both N. and S. Knoll had shooters....but they all didn't fire....it was only as needed directed from some script or some command post.

*****************************

Hello Peter:

I do not know of rifles nor weapons, but have read that a rifle producing such smoke could have meant that someone had forgotten to Lightly oil their weapon..as Oily barrels can produce huge plumes of

smoke....FWIW..

B.

Hi Ter:

That I agree with...J.R's great research, he was a friend to many, all you had to do was ask..

As well as the Parkland trauma team's findings..a blow out to the back of the head...they were the first trained medical witnesses, as well as Hill and others who saw such...but

which upon the bodys arrival at Bethesda, though it was also seen, it had become much larger in size..according to witnesses.....Though you would never know it by the autopsy photos, or the Bethesda Doctor's reports..imo ...nothing is in stone in the JFK assn...it should

have been from the beginning but.....and it all changes according to whomever's latest whims at times.

B..

****************

Ashton,

Here's another for you.. This is the area where Sam Holland and the RR men, ran to, saw the footprints and saw the smoke

drift out, from under the trees.....it is now called the Hatman area..a possible spot from where a shot

came from. His head, does appear, move and disappear......in gifs of the film, Nix I believe, there is movement..I cannot post any Gifs...

But this will show you the approximate area....behind the fence, another for you to contemplate.

This is all I can fit in for now.....

B..

THe photo below written where the smoke came from, is part of Bill Miller's reasearch in this area.

Hello Ashton:

I posted the wrong County Courts photo last evening...this below show all..dated 11-14-64.

I doubt that anyone has made up their mind completely, in anything let alone where the shots came from, many have

done great research in the areas of where the possibilities could be..we trudge along.

Nothing is written in stone, in the JFK assassination..as we never know what tomorrow may unveil, then

must be researched further to come to a finding of whether true or false..neverendingstory..

I have been looking at your Badge man location, your wall, I am thinking is too high ?, I will show

the possible why below.. one is taken when the old fence still remained..the other is newer, but

perhaps you will see what I mean.......

Also some time, in later years through heavy rains, the knoll suffered damage

and suffered a mud slide of sorts, and all had to be repaired...and rebuilt, in some areas. I think it very

possible that at that time that area could have been enforced, shifted to some degree higher ? and perhaps this could be the reason.

I believe Gerry Dealey could inform you of all, I believe he was the man who informed me, some time ago.

I enjoy your research, as you make us think.......about the many possibilities, and imo

that should never end. As you may recall I also wonder of the possibility of a shot from the

corner of the fence, nearest the underpass..?

I am also posting a scan, from where now ?? of a possible shot scenario, one being from the County Courts

it may help in some way...in perspective.....

I have run out of photo space, will return with the area where Sam Holland believed the smoke came

from.....will delete some...

Please continue...

B

Interesting conversation gents.....and the cop does seem less visible when in the shadows....and I think your simulation is great Ashton, but remember that the eye looking toward the fence had lots of cars and other things to deal with too. Anyone there might not have known there was someone in the tower who might see them, or they might have and taken some simple actions to camoflage their movements...or divert attention.

**************

Ashton:

Peter has some good points here...and I think you may be forgetting the shade on the Tower side of

the fence at that time of the day.....below you will find one taken from the Tower, a few years later,

and how relative the shadows would have been..

Also in Mark Lane's video, he interviews Sam Holland, and they proceed to the area where he and his fellow RR employees saw the

smoke drift out from , in 1967...at that time of the afternoon, .........and those little trees were not so small..the shade was quite dense, which can be seen as they stand there...

Also a photo of the parking lot take after, you will be able to see the density somewhat....

I haven't a clue after all this if you ever received a photo, of the Courts building....showing the view

right on, nor the size of the trees in that area or such, one below was taken in 1964..

For whomever's interest...

Good thread, carry on as they say......

Trouble posting, double.....the F seems very slow.??

one with the photos one without.....??

Put them together in your minds eye....

See below.......?

QUOTE:

Dallas Police dispatches at 1:23 and 1:32 stated, "...wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." A police dispatch at 1:46 states, "...suppose to be hiding in the balcony ." As police converged on the theater they were directed to the balcony by Julia Postal.

As officers were questioning patrons in the balcony, Barrett, Westbrook, McDonald, Hutson, Hawkins, and Walker entered the theater from the alley.

As Lt. Cunningham, Det. Taylor and Det. Toney began questioning a young man in the balcony they heard someone shout 'here he is" from the lower level.

Police in the balcony descended to the lower level to assist in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. The arrest occurred about 1:50 pm.

Oswald was the transported to DPD headquarters acompanied by five Dallas police officers--Detective Bob Carroll, Sergeant Gerald Hill, Detective K.E. Lyons, Charles T. Walker and Detective Paul Bentley..

..Tippit murder...

Back of Theatre...stairs to balcony ...Julia Postal, tickets......Theatre Nov.23/63

and Johnny Brewer..

L.H.O arrest in the Texas Theatre....in the balcony...is what the documents report..

"Breach of Trust" Gerald D.McKnight 2005

The story that Robert Kennedy had denied the WC the autopsy and X-ray photos

Was a lie….also the mention that the Kennedy family did not want them shown at the hearings….as Specter had told to Humes and Finck, which they did pass along in their appearance before the ARRB ……

Specter knew the stories were bogus….he in an Apr 64 memo to Chief Council Rankin, urged him to obtain them, he knew the Ryberg medical illustrations could not substitute for the forensic evidence..He had learned and mentioned that SS inspector Thomas J. Kelley that the AT “ wanted to be satisfied that they were really necessary”..he did not hear back from Rankin, and wrote again, for staff access to such..he knew that Rankin expected to wrap up the WC in June. (1).

At the time Specter was not privy to the fact that the WC, Rankin, had the autopsy photos, as well as the X-rays they had kept this information from the assistant councils and staff. Most of the Commissioners being lawyers, knew the solid rules of evidence but chose to sit through the testimony in which their key witnesses were denied “the best medicolegal evidence”........just as they had refused to raise an eyebrow when Humes spoke of burning the autopsy records (2)…

Several years later Commissioner McCloy appeared on CBS’s “Face the Nation”..they discussed that day in Dallas and he stated…””for the sake of completion “”,”” they had not looked at the late president’s autopsy X-rays and photographs..””..he told millions of Sunday viewers ,”” We were perhaps a little over sentitive,”” to the wishes of the Kennedy family, who”” were against the production of colored photographs of the body and so forth..””…He struck the right pose of repentance, and then McCloy went on to tell the TV audience …”that even without reviewing the autopsy pictures the Commission had “..”” the best evidence ( on the autopsy) in the sworn testimony of the doctor"..

Page 171..

Notes: on page 412..

(1)..Arlen Specter to J.Lee Rankin..April 30/64..Warren CD 10079, NA,Washington.DC..,1-2 “Specter to Rankin, 11,12/64,J.Lee Rankin Papers,box 37 folder 473,NARA..

(2)..When John McCloy asked about the “raw material for the autopsy….the colored photographs of the President’s body …..do we have these?”..

Rankin acknowledged that they had the “raw materials” photos,and X-rays. See WC Jan.21/64, executive session transcript ,NARA, 35. Two years after the Commission submitted it’s final report on the assassination ,former assistant counsels W.David Slawson and Norman Redlich reported to Burke Marshall that the Commission had NOT seen the X-rays and the autopsy photos ..See W.David Slawson to file ,10/7/1966,Dept of Justice ,Criminal Division, file 129-11.1-2.

(3)..McCloy’s Face the Nation comments can be found in FBI clipping of the Washington Capital News Service ,7/6/1967..FBIHQ Liaison with Commission File 62-109090-601..

McCloy’s continued exercise in blaming the Kennedy’s for withholding crucial evidence was part of the FBI’s campaign, to cover up it’s further embarrassing failure to not get a copy of the autopsy report before submitting its report CD 1..on the assassination to the Commission..These lies,misinformation and blaming the victim’s family, was so unpalatable to even J.Edgar Hoover…that he noted on an FBI memo ..”The confusion…would never have occurred if we had obtained the autopsy report originally. The Kennedys never asked us to withhold it and if they had we should have disgarded it.”

Notes: notes page 412,

Rosen to DeLoach ,12/7/66..FBIHQ,JFK assn file,62-109060..4235..

Also J.Stanley Rotz..to SAC ,Baltimore,10/18/66..Main Baltimore JFK Assn File..89-30-268: 89-30-262 and 267..

Lee:

That is not Greer nor Connally, hope you got out...

That is correct the shadows......tell all....

...B

Hi Ashton,

are these of any help to you....?

B..

Bernice, regarding the top photo: Is this photo from an official reenactment. Can you point us to the source?

Thanks

******************************

Hi Raymond:

From The Saturday Evening Post's line of fire.........By Ben.H.Bagdikin....you will note they say

from the window where the killer lay in wait...

and a crop from the Altgen's ( lightened ) showing the Dal Tex second floor windows..

*************************

Ashton, your very welcome..

B..

Hi Ashton,

are these of any help to you....?

B..

I appreciate, anyone's efforts, that do operate a forum, it is time consuming and at times very frustrating ..it takes a great effort....and at most times taken for granted.....and it is a job.....but

... Are these all User Errors..?...and I am getting the impression that it seems to be appearing to be minimized...as such..?

Then the next question is, who, and why ?? I would think..

Maybe some did perhaps have a glitch in posting...it happens, you wait a few minutes and try again......as a rule, it clears up.......and the next time you try....it works well....

But it seems to appear the list of names is growing, and by experienced posters, not newbies....and it appears at times for hours on end,....??

As well that does not explain, posts nor threads disappearing ?

Is someone playing games ?, has the F been infested ?...

I do not know who or why, but it appears that perhaps someone could be......imo..

B

Ruby's clothes......B

John:

Here is the Dallas Morning News photo that was taken and printed in their Newspaper..I believe..lightened, for you..

I do not see the marks or scratches on the curb.....were these scratches seen, made when the cutting out was done.I am thinking.....?????

B..

John & Tom :

A Question please...

I have been following this thread, and it appears to me that you are basing the Tague curb shot, trajectories with the Z 313 head shot, re the Zapruder film....from the TSBD..

But at the same time, Tom has posted previous information that the head shot occurred 30 feet further

down Elm Street, than what we see within that film....and John you agreed with his information, I believe.

If so. this study would therefore not be of any use, as the findings based on Z 313 would all be in error.

E.J.Hoover's report, was that this shot had not come from the TSBD, but from the Dal Tex or another

building....

Thanks B..

1. The first shot to the head of JFK was at Z313. (Second shot fired) Stationing 4+65.

2. The second shot to the head of JFK was some 30+feet farther down Elm St. in front of Mr. Altgens. (Last/third shot fired) Stationing 4+96.

3. The Z313 shot is the one that fragmented the bullet.

Bernice, thank you for your comments.

What I'm trying to do is to show what would happen to a fragment assuming it's from z313 wihout favouring the outcome. I think it shows that a fragment from z313 is unlikely if not impossible to strike the curb and if it did, is unlikely to cause the surface of the curb to break and send fragments to Tagues cheek.

I don't agree with Toms conclusions about the last shot, AND I don't disagree with them either, I'm following his explanations to the best of my ability.

Whatever, the method is really the important thing, and can be applied to any situation. Also I haven't had (I hope someone will) any confirmation (or denial) of the methodology. I already found one mistake (however that mistake when corrected made the curb strike even more unlikely). I have very little doubt that the mark on the curb is a curtate cycloid* wheel weight balance strike and it looks like the "blond Agent'# palmed a wheel weight and not a bullet. I know that wasn't in the same place, but the likelyhood, given the trochoids* on the small section of curb cut out and Tom's accounts from his youth et.c. makes no lead pieces collected and identified as wheel weights unlikely ie. >>>they were found, and for some reason not logged as what they were. I theorise that this is to confuse things and make the Tague strike credible because if it didn't strike the curb bur rather took the more credible downward trajectory to him, the fragment would have gone skipping across any number of vehicles behind him and there is no report of anything like that. IOW they needed it to rise up as a ricochet and the curb damage fitted the bill. Now subtract the Tague strike and the field is ripped wide open. No more 'but what about Tague?'. So it's important to get this right.

*

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=78733

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=78802

# (image)

********************

Thanks John:

I am also trying to follow both yours and his to the best of my ability, and when it comes to the trajectories

and such it does become a handful at times..

I realise that both you, I believe, now correct me if in error, and Tom believe perhaps only three shots from the TSBD

doing all the damage as reported to all involved..plus limo and such..and three shots only....

I try to keep an open mind in that area as I have never come to a final conclusion as to how many....there actually may have been.

Especially when I take into consideration

the witnesses information and first day statements, and first early reports, well there is great doubt....and as I put it they were present, and I was not.

Also, and cannot find it at the present time, when they cut and took the piece of cement curb finally, the

nick, hole whatever had been filled, touched off with a topping of cement, it had been filled...and when

Weisberg requested to see such, it had been destroyed, in that huge bulding there was not room enough

to keep a piece of cement and a possible shot strike to the curb.....

The following may be of interest to you....

This is from "White Wash" The report on the Warren Report....Harold Weisberg

1965...page 158-159..

About the curb hit...FYI,

Minutes after the assassination. Patrolman L.L.Hill radioed..

"I have one guy that was possibly hit by a ricochet from the bullet off the concrete." H 116.

James T Tague, had left his car at the end of Dealey Plaza opposite the Depository. He was slightly injured on the cheek and immediately reported this to Deputy Sheriff Eddy R. Walthers, 7H547,553.,

who was already examining the area to see if any bullets had hit the turf. Patrolman J.W.Foster ,on the Triple Underpass ,had seen a bullet hit the turf near near a manhole cover. Other witnesses in the same location had and reported similar observations, Walthers found a place on the curb where Tague had stood where it appeared a bullet had hit the cement ",

In the words of the Report .According to Tague ,"There was a mark quite obviously, it was a bullet ,and it was very fresh. "R 166.

Photographs of this spot were taken by two professional photographers who were subsequently witnesses in another connection. Tom Dillard had photographed the South face of the Book Depository Building. James R. Underwood, a television news director, had made motion pictures of the same area and had been in the motorcade.

From it's own records, the Commission did not look into this until July 7, 1964...when it asked the FBI to make an investigation which produced nothing. I discovered this entirely by accident, for there was no logical means by which to learn of it. What follows is a credit to neither the FBI nor the Commission:

Not until September 1st ,1964 with it's work almost done ,did the Commission call back Lyndal Shaneyfelt the FBI photographer, not a ballistics expert. Assistant Council Norman Redlich took a deposition from him beginning at 10.45 a.m. at the Commission's office. 15H 686-702

The previous investigation was reported in an unsigned memorandum of July 17, 1964, from the Dallas field office 21H 472 ff.

In it, the author politely called to the Commission’s attention that the photographs in question "had been forwarded to the President's Commission by Martha Joe Stroud, Assistant U.S Attorney, Dallas, Texas.".

In other words, if the FBI was going to be the subject to criticism for not finding what the Commission wanted, the FBI was going to have it on record that there was no need for the Commission to have delayed seeking further information.

This FBI report quoted Dillard as locating the point at which he took the pictures. It was, he said,” on the South side of Main Street about twenty feet east of the Triple Underpass." The FBI Dallas office said, “The area of the curb from this point for a distance of ten feet-in either direction was carefully checked and it was ascertained that there was no nick in the curb in the checked area, nor was any mark observed." In the concluding paragraph, repeating the above information almost word for word, the Dallas Field Office concluded," It should be noted that, since this mark was observed on November 23, 1963, there have been numerous rains, which could have possibly washed away such a mark and also that the area is cleaned by a street cleaning machine about once a week,which would also wash away any such mark."

Bear this in mind in considering what Shaneyfelt reported. Under the date of August 12, 1964.by courier service, J .E. Hoover presented the fruit of Shaneyfelt's investigation to Com. Counsel Rankin 21H 475-7.

Shaneyfelt had no trouble locating the spot. He used exactly the same raw materials the Dallas Field Office had used the two paragraphs.

What followed was all conjecture, and the most basic conjecture, supported by no evidence, was that all the shots came from the sixth-floor window. Thus, the FBI concluded that the shot would "correspond to frame 410 in the Zapruder film. " ...."and that it " went directly over the President's head."15H 699.

This was long after the President received the fatal wound that was the last shot according to the most credible witnesses.

Before supervising the removal of the curb and it's trasnportation to FBI in Washington on Aug 5,1964..Shaneyfelt took a number of photographs ,none of them with the possibility in mind that the shot could have emanated from any other source.

Perhaps the rains were light during those ten months or the street-cleaning machines inefficient, for there remained traces of the bullet. Spectrographic examination showed the metal smears on the curb were "essentially lead with a trace of antimony." This could have come from a mutilated bullet of the type presumed to have been used in the rifle. It could have come from a bullet of another type. Or it could have come from other sources .By "mutilated bullet" is meant one that deformed after first hitting another object. In his letter, Hoover precluded a bullet such as "from Governor Connally's stretcher " (he could not bring himself to say it was found there) or the "bullet or bullets" represented by the jacket fragments ...found in the Presidential limousine "He said" It was also determined from a microscopic study that the lead object that struck the curbing and causing the mark was moving in a general direction away" from the Texas School Depository Building". Hoover did not so state, but the bullet was also "moving in general direction away "from several other buildings, places and areas, such as the area where the puff of smoke was seen, or the building next to the Depository. If it were a fragment, he said, they did not know enough to determine "whether it was caused by a fragment of a bullet striking the occupants of the Presidential limousine, such as the bullet that struck the President's head. or whether it is a fragment of a shot that may have missed the Presidential limousine."

Politely Hoover was saying that there could not have been a fragment from any other bullet that hit an occupant of the Presidential car."21H 75-7

Even to ascertain that the thought that a fragment of the bullet that struck the President in the head could have gone this distance in this direction and left any kind of mark on the curb is to do violence to Euclid, whom the Commission has already left unchaste.......snip.

The point of impact of this "missed" bullet was well to the left and in front of the President .The President was also not turned in such a fashion as to make this possible, and the experts said that the only known fragmented bullet found, had it caused the President's head injury, dissipated it's energy in the explosion. The fragments did not have enough energy left even to carry them out of the car.

***************************************

Below is a copy from the DMN of the same photo you posted, but I believe may be a clearer copy, a close up of the hit,and a photo of possible other hits that day....may be helpful in your studies...

Thanks B.....

John & Tom :

A Question please...

I have been following this thread, and it appears to me that you are basing the Tague curb shot, trajectories with the Z 313 head shot, re the Zapruder film....from the TSBD..

But at the same time, Tom has posted previous information that the head shot occurred 30 feet further

down Elm Street, than what we see within that film....and John you agreed with his information, I believe.

If so. this study would therefore not be of any use, as the findings based on Z 313 would all be in error.

E.J.Hoover's report, was that this shot had not come from the TSBD, but from the Dal Tex or another

building....

Thanks B..

1. The first shot to the head of JFK was at Z313. (Second shot fired) Stationing 4+65.

2. The second shot to the head of JFK was some 30+feet farther down Elm St. in front of Mr. Altgens. (Last/third shot fired) Stationing 4+96.

3. The Z313 shot is the one that fragmented the bullet.

Tom:

From what I have studied the head shot in front of Mr Altgens is the one that fragmented and blew outward..Z 313..

The second entered ( third shot ) within a fraction of a second, of the first..( second head shot),almost simultaniously.....I believe according to Dr.Mantik's and other's studies.

Harold Weisberg, put the first shot further up Elm towards the TSBD..and the last shot down further past

the steps, as not seen in the Zapruder film.

Re Hoover, according to his report the trajectory was not to the TSBD......the Tague curb hit was to Hoover an annoyance

he really could not be bothered with such.....at least he acknowledged a curb hit..

And Tague, being present that day, stated in his information the shot that he received the small frament hit to

his right cheek from, was from a different location and further up towards the corner of the fence and the overpass...

Thanks B..

John & Tom :

A Question please...

I have been following this thread, and it appears to me that you are basing the Tague curb shot, trajectories with the Z 313 head shot, re the Zapruder film....from the TSBD..

But at the same time, Tom has posted previous information that the head shot occurred 30 feet further

down Elm Street, than what we see within that film....and John you agreed with his information, I believe.

If so. this study would therefore not be of any use, as the findings based on Z 313 would all be in error.

E.J.Hoover's report, was that this shot had not come from the TSBD, but from the Dal Tex or another

building....

Thanks B..