David Von Pein

All three of those "fall back" positions are perfectly reasonable. You only mock them because you HAVE NO REASONABLE ANSWERS TO COMBAT THEM. Your silly Anybody-But-Oswald theory requires the coordination of dozens upon dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, cutting across all walks of life (both civilians and otherwise), working in concert to frame your innocent, snow-white patsy named Lee Harvey. So, now the bus ticket is a plant too. Great. What's next? Oswald's brown shirt which was consistent with the rifle's butt-plate fibers? Was that planted right on his back on Nov. 22? BTW, please prove to the world that a paper bus transfer that was in a person's shirt pocket MUST be mutilated beyond recognition after a brief scuffle with police officers in a theater. I'd like to see that proof. If you ABO nutjobs weren't so predictable....you'd still be predictable (and really, really silly, to boot).

You obviously cannot read. Because David Belin fully explains at 6 H 434 (below) that the 17:45 timing was the "LONG WAY AROUND ROUTE". Taking a more direct route (plus moving a little faster than the "AVERAGE WALKING PACE" that was utilized during the Commission's 17:45 trip) would have shaved considerable time off of that 17-minute journey. Who's cherry-picking now, Lee? You seem to leave out quite a few important addendums when talking about the evidence (like Belin's "Long Way Around Route" verbiage).

He came as close to it as possible. Plus, Whaley positively IDed Oswald as the person who rode beside him in the front seat of his taxi on 11/22. So, Lee Farley either thinks Whaley was, indeed, a big fat xxxx---or, Lee thinks Whaley was just honestly mistaken when he picked Oswald out of a police line-up.

Simple, Bill. The reason was very likely two-fold on Oswald's part: LHO didn't want the cab driver to know exactly where he lived. And #2 (which is even a better reason IMO), he wanted to see if any police or strangers were lurking near 1026 Beckley. After all, he had just killed the President, and he had to know that the cops would be hot on his trail very soon. Yes, he could, of course, have checked the immediate area around his roominghouse for cop cars and "strangers", etc., and then have Whaley let him out just a few yards beyond the roominghouse, which would have made the walk back to his room much shorter. But he didn't do that. And since nobody can read his mind on this issue, we'll never know for sure exactly why Oswald did all of the things he did on November 22. But we know he DID do them. And: Oswald also knew that nobody at the TSBD had his Beckley address, so that fact would buy him some extra time to go get his revolver (and, no, I don't know why he would not have taken his Smith & Wesson revolver with him to work on 11/22; the reason there, IMO, is likely because he would have needed to take the revolver into work at the Depository Building TWICE [and transport the gun in Wes Frazier's car TWICE too], because of his unusual Thursday trip to Irving; perhaps he thought Frazier might see it and start asking questions, with Frazier possibly putting 2 & 2 together and then saying something to somebody about LHO having a gun; I really don't know). I also think it's quite possible that Oswald just simply forgot his revolver when he left for work on Thursday, the 21st. His plan to murder JFK was, indeed, slipshod and half-assed in some ways. And it certainly reeks of being "last minute" (or nearly so, relatively-speaking). But, hey, it's hard to argue with success, isn't it? He achieved his primary goal of killing the President, despite a slipshod getaway plan. Too many people criticize the way Oswald did things on Nov. 21 and 22, 1963. But, as mentioned, it's hard to knock perfection. And Oswald achieved "perfection", from his point-of-view -- he assassinated the person he was attempting to assassinate. BTW, Oswald was driven only THREE blocks past his roominghouse, Bill. Not five. LHO had Whaley drop him off in the 700 block of N. Beckley, instead of travelling all the way to the 500 block, which LHO originally told Whaley was his destination.

Lee, Your argument about the cab re-enactments is nonsense (of course). WHALEY HIMSELF said the second re-enactment took between 5 and 6 minutes. Those words came out of WHALEY'S own mouth. I have no idea why one re-enactment supposedly took 9 minutes (according to Whaley), while another one took only 5.5 minutes. But the fact is: the 4/8/64 re-enactment took 5.5 minutes--and WHALEY HIMSELF VERIFIED IT via his WC testimony. Therefore, the trip from the Greyhound bus station to Beckley & Neely could definitely be driven in less than 9 minutes (and even less than 6). Or are we supposed to believe that Whaley is a xxxx now too? Is there any end to the number of people the conspiracy theorists are willing to call liars? Any end at all? (Just curious.) Yeah, I've been expecting to hear that stupid theory from one of you Anybody-But-Oswald nuts pretty soon. Thanks for not disappointing me, Lee boy. As usual, per the ABO crowd, everything is fake, including the item pictured below, which was found in LHO's pocket. (Prob'ly planted there, right Lee?) And Farley has to paint his precious patsy as a xxxx in the "bus" regard too, because Oswald himself admitted to getting on a bus after leaving the Depository on November 22nd. The cops probably lied about the patsy saying that, right Lee? Yeah, that must be it. That's a nice all-encompassing pack of worthless liars you've got there -- from virtually all the witnesses (e.g., Whaley, V. Davis, B. Davis, Scoggins, Callaway, Markham, Brennan, and a multitude of others), to the DPD, to the FBI, to the WC, to the HSCA. All liars right down the line. Right, Lee boy?

Yes, cab driver William W. Whaley did say it took "nine minutes" to perform one of the re-enactments from Greyhound to Beckley and Neely [at 2 H 259]. But you're leaving out the other re-enactment, which was performed on the same day Whaley gave additional testimony in front of the Warren Commission (April 8, 1964). In that second re-enactment with Whaley and Warren Commission counsel member David W. Belin present, the cab ride was reconstructed from the Greyhound bus terminal to the intersection of Beckley Avenue and Neely Street in Oak Cliff (which is where Whaley said Oswald got out of the taxicab). That 4/8/64 re-creation was timed by stopwatch at 5 minutes and 30 seconds [see 6 H 434 and WCR Page 163. DAVID BELIN -- "When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch?" WILLIAM WHALEY -- "A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes." MR. BELIN -- "Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today?" MR. WHALEY -- "It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped on the lights that I stopped on." MR. BELIN -- "Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and 30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride." RELATED LINK WILLIAM WHALEY VIDEOS

Oh, heavens no. The best evidence trumps a timeline snafu any day of the week. You know that, Lee. Oswald killed Tippit. Stamp it MARK VII. I don't think that's right. Benavides was the first person to use the radio. He was clueless about its operation and then Bowley took over. Are you saying the proper chronology was BOWLEY (unsuccessful), then BENAVIDES (unsuccessful), then BOWLEY again (successful)? That's not accurate at all. BTW, Bowley's call was at 1:17:41 (Myers; "With Malice"; p.92). Benavides' "mashing" started at 1:16 and continued for more than 90 seconds. Also: Relating to a post by Jim DiEugenio earlier --- Benavides stated in a 1967 CBS-TV interview that the time he waited before getting out of his truck much much shorter than "a few minutes" (which is his quote from his WC testimony). He told Eddie Barker of CBS that he gave the gunman just enough time to get around the corner and then he jumped out of his truck after just "a second or two" and went over to Tippit's body. Take the '67 version with a grain of salt if you like--but that's what Domingo said in 1967. And he also said that he was positive Lee Oswald was the killer. (Take another grain of Morton's there too, if desired.)

More stuff that Adams has wrong (the list is almost endless if you listen to the full 5-part Cleveland radio interview): He thinks it was Rufus Youngblood who climbed aboard JFK's car right after the shooting in Dealey Plaza. He seemed to imply that the original motorcade route would have taken the car down Elm St. through Dallas, instead of Main (at least that's what he said). He implies that the back of JFK's head is missing in the existing autopsy pictures. Goofy. He claims that NONE of the Secret Service agents gave any statements to anyone in officialdom. He evidently isn't aware that every SS agent in Kennedy's detail wrote up an official report for the SS files, plus several agents appeared before the WC--e.g., Clint Hill, Roy Kellerman, and Bill Greer. Adams claims that nobody bothered to even check the bullets that came out of J.D. Tippit's body to see if they could be matched to Oswald's revolver. He thinks it wasn't done at all, despite the testimony of Joe Nicol and Bob Frazier...with Nicol even stating that one of the bullets could be matched to LHO's gun. He claims that somebody had to approach Jackie Kennedy and ask her to relinquish the piece of JFK's head that she carried to Parkland...instead of Jackie herself voluntarily giving the head piece to Dr. Pepper Jenkins (which, of course, is what happened). And, of course, we're treated to the usual CT excrement about how Oswald's shooting feat was absolutely impossible, and how it's never been duplicated by anybody on the mortal coil. And then we a goof who calls in the radio show to say that he and his Marine sniper team couldn't come anywhere near Oswald's feat, with the caller saying that he couldn't do it in less than SIXTEEN seconds. And the best his commanding officer could accomplish was TWELVE seconds. (Great sniper team there. Irene Ryan of The Beverly Hillbillies could have done it in under ten seconds--easy.) And there's the usual stuff about how Oswald's rifle was a piece of junk. And the lie about how Oswald didn't kill Tippit either. Etc., etc. Don Adams, in effect, is clueless.

For a lot of laughs (in addition to the many factual errors on his website), tune in to ex-FBI agent Don Adams' 5-part radio interview on this webpage: http://adamsjfk.com/Home.html In Part 2 of the program, Adams tells all kinds of falsehoods, such as the howler about how Oswald would have had to criss-cross the Book Depository building a total of THREE different times in order to get from the sixth-floor "loft" (as Adams calls it) to the second-floor "break room" (as Adams calls the lunchroom)! Adams actually seems to think that Oswald had to cross the entire length of the building THREE times--once to hide the rifle; then another criss-cross to get to the stairs (totally untrue); and then a third crossing of the building in order to reach the lunchroom (also a lie). This guy doesn't know the most basic facts about the assassination or Oswald's movements.

Oh, good gosh, no. That's speculation. Nobody can possibly timestamp that event as being precisely "1:04". That's crazy. Can't be done. The time could easily vary a few minutes from day to day. (And you just accused ME of doing a lot of speculating.) Before you jump on me in yet another pot/kettle fashion, let me say this: Yes, my "1:14" timing for the Tippit shooting is SPECULATION too. I'll admit that. And I think Dale Myers would too. (He's got it down to "1:14:30", in fact.) But nobody can KNOW with 100% certainty if it was 1:13 or 1:14 or 1:15, etc. Vince Bugliosi thinks that 1:12 is the best guess for the time of Tippit's shooting. So, even among LNers, there are some slight disagreements, although not by very many minutes (because of Benavides' 1:16 radio call attempt). But, just like Oswald's movements, nobody had a clock marked "Coordinated Universal Time" attached to Helen Markham's ass when she left for her job on November 22nd. My last post before this one was a really good one. You should re-read it, Mr. Farley -- especially this part: "But to discount A DOZEN eyewitnesses and the ballistics evidence, which are things that conclusively prove Oswald's guilt in Tippit's slaying, in favor of a few minutes' discrepancy in a witness' timeline....is just plain silly." -- DVP; 08/20/10

The WC was probably slightly off on that timeline, yes. But keep in mind that the WC said that all times were "approximate". Nobody can know exactly when Oswald left the roominghouse. It could have been earlier than 1:00, and I think it probably was earlier than 1:00. And nobody can know exactly when he ENTERED the roominghouse either. All we can do is guess. Nobody was following LHO with a stopwatch affixed to his tail. But even if he did leave his room at 1:03, he still had enough time to get to Tenth St. by 1:14 or so. And 1:14 is positively the best guess for when the shooting happened (see Myers' "With Malice"; p.86). Various people have done re-enactments of the trip to Tenth St., and it's been done is as little as 11 minutes. And as I've said, there's no way that Oswald would have had any reason to be in that small room of his for any 3-4 minutes that day. There wasn't a bathroom in that room. It was a large closet. You could barely swing a cat in it. And Earlene Roberts herself said that he was only in his room long enough to get a coat and put it on. That's all. And she extrapolated that to "3 or 4 minutes". No way. And in the TV movie "Ruby & Oswald", it was proven via a re-creation that Oswald's actions of grabbing a gun and putting on a jacket and then exiting the room can be done in 22 seconds. So, what else was LHO doing in there for the remaining 3.5 minutes, if Roberts' timeline is correct? He wasn't taking a dump, because as I said there's certainly no toilet in that small room. The CTers make a giant issue out of the narrow timeline. But in actuality, it SHOULD be pretty narrow, because Oswald very likely wasn't loitering on Tenth Street or on Beckley before he reached Tenth. So a narrow timeline, with little wiggle room, is what I would expect. But to discount A DOZEN eyewitnesses and the ballistics evidence, which are things that conclusively prove Oswald's guilt in Tippit's slaying, in favor of a few minutes' discrepancy in a witness' timeline....is just plain silly.

Yes.

Just as I said, you've got a 6 to 10-minute delay in reporting the shooting if you want to go with the 1:06 or 1:10 timelines. That is not a reasonable delay, IMO. And "a few minutes", by any reasonable definition, would be fewer than ten. Ten would be "several". But you'll just call that nitpicking, so I won't go any further. And, as discussed earlier, I think we know how good people are at judging "minutes" -- they are generally lousy. And that fact is proven over and over again in just this JFK/Tippit case. Jim Altgens, when estimating the length of time for the shooting of JFK said that "all the shots were fired within the space of less than 30 seconds." (Well, I certainly hope so. Or else, Oliver Stone had better add a couple dozen more shots to his shooting scenario.) J.C. Price said there was a FIVE-MINUTE gap between shots in Dealey Plaza. (And I'm sure you love Price, because he was utilized by Mark Lane in RTJ.) And then there's the previously-discussed all-over-the-map timelines of Helen Markham -- from 1:06 to 1:30. And then there's the timing of the Tippit shooting by Virginia Davis -- she said it occurred "about 1:30" in her affidavit. BTW, Jim, it's T.F. Bowley, not "Bewley". Did Tony Summers really call him "Bewley" in his 1980 book? BTW #2 -- Care to explain away those two Davis bullet shells yet? I'm sure you can find a way to pretend those were planted by Doughty and Dhority, can't you? It's fairly obvious that Jim DiEugenio couldn't care less about the truth in the JFK assassination. His job is to find as many excuses as he can possibly find to avoid having to ever say "Oswald did it". Those three words are like poison to a CTer like Jimbo. Pure arsenic. Jim will now turn the tables and say my last sentence reeks of pot/kettle-ism, and that the words "conspiracy" and "Oswald is innocent" are poison to my lips. But he'll be wrong if he says that. And that's because my "Oswald did it" conclusion is a much more reasonable one than Jim's "Everything is fake" conclusion when it comes to examining the evidence in the murders of JFK and J.D. Tippit. I don't require EVERY last piece of evidence to be fake in this case in order to arrive at my conclusion. Jim, however, needs literally every piece of evidence to be tainted in order for his "ABO" views to be accurate. And, I ask sincerely -- is that a reasonable requirement?

If Tippit had really been shot at 1:06 (per Markham) or 1:10 (Bowley), this would mean that Benavides and Bowley stood around and waited SIX to TEN minutes before using Tippit's car radio to report the shooting. Per the DPD radio records, at 1:16 PM, somebody began "pumping" a police radio microphone for about 90 seconds. (This was obviously Benavides' botched attempt to call in on Tippit's radio.) Bowley then got through and told the dispatcher that a policeman had been shot. Bowley's call came through at 1:18, after Benavides had apparently been unsuccessful at working the radio for about 1.5 minutes. The 1:16-1:18 timing of the Benavides/Bowley radio calls indicates that the shooting very likely occurred just a very short time prior to 1:16. [see "With Malice" by Dale K. Myers; pp. 86-87.] But people like J. DiEugenio evidently want to believe that Benavides & Bowley just stood around picking lint out of their belly buttons for up to ten full minutes before getting into Tippit's car to use the radio. (And even a SIX-minute delay in reporting the murder is ludicrous too.) In short --- DiEugenio, as usual, is dead wrong. Lee Harvey Oswald killed J.D. Tippit at approximately 1:14 to 1:15 PM CST on 11/22/63, and the Dallas Police Department radio dispatch records (coupled with ordinary common sense and logic) fully support that timeline.

James DiEugenio will ignore the fact that Helen Markham told Bardwell Odum ON THE SAME DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION that the Tippit shooting could have possibly occurred as late as 1:30 PM. Odum's interview with Markham was THE SAME DAY as the shooting. IOW, the same day when she was ALSO saying "1:06". Obviously, there's a discrepancy in the time. She didn't tell Odum 1:06. Why not? Or was Odum a xxxx? I doubt you think that, since you love the guy on the issue of whether or not he ever took a bullet out to Parkland to show Tomlinson & Wright.

Reprise: Then why in the world would she tell the FBI that the shooting of Tippit occurred "possibly around 1:30" [Commission Document 5; Page 79] if she knew she had to catch a bus at 1:15? http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=83

I don't have to "cover up" anything, Jimbo. I stated a FACT (per Roberts' testimony on the horn-honking) -- i.e., on multiple days PRIOR to Nov. 22, a police car would honk its horn in front of 1026 N. Beckley, in just exactly the same "tip-tip" manner that Roberts said a police car honked its horn on 11/22.

Then why in the world would she tell the FBI that the shooting of Tippit occurred "possibly around 1:30" [Commission Document 5; Page 79] if she knew she had to catch a bus at 1:15? http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=83 In September 2007, I had this conversation with a CTer named Ray about this Markham/1:30 topic: RAY -- "I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p. 80--The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony -- Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time of the Tippit murder." <<< I then said: Well OF COURSE it's hearsay. Duh. I know that. But...so the hell what?? This isn't an official COURT TRIAL, for Pete sake. And Vince Bugliosi's book isn't an official "trial" either. So what if it's hearsay? It makes not a lick of difference with respect to these Forum discussions and with respect to VB putting Odum's words in his JFK book. The fact is ("hearsay" or not) that FBI Agent Bardwell Odum DID write the words "around 1:30 p.m." in a report about Helen Markham's observations surrounding the Tippit murder, which is just exactly what Vince Bugliosi points out on Page 52 of his Endnotes on the CD-ROM attached to his 2007 book "Reclaiming History". (NOTE: The word "possibly" does precede the words "around 1:30 p.m." in Odum's written report; so I guess this will now mean that CTers can gripe because VB cut out that word "possibly". But, in any event, Odum is on Warren Commission record, via Commission Document #5, as having stated that Mrs. Markham told him that the murder of J.D. Tippit could possibly have occurred "around 1:30 p.m.".) I want to thank Ray for digging up CD#5, with the Odum Report in it. I looked for hours at Ferrell's site myself and couldn't find it in the morass of thousands of documents presented there at that excellent website. However, Ray, you have the wrong page number within CD#5. The Bardwell Odum report regarding the specific "around 1:30 p.m." reference isn't on Page 80....it's on Page 79, which is a completely-different Odum report filed on a different day. Page 80 does have an Odum report (from November 25), but it's shorter and does not include the "1:30" remark. But one page prior (on Page 79 of CD#5), there is a separate report from Odum from 11/22/63 (dictated on 11/23). But the main point here is one that I knew would turn out to be true and verified in short order (because VB wouldn't place quotation marks around something if those words never were never spoken or written by someone in the first place)...and that point is: Vincent Bugliosi did not lie regarding this Markham/Odum interview and the timeline issue. And the document linked HERE proves that fact (CD5; p.79). Thanks again, Ray. Good job at digging it up (even though you were one page off). It probably would have taken me several more days of agonizing searching to find the damn thing (and I, too, don't know why Vince B. didn't make mention of "CD5; Pg. 79" in his Endnote re. this particular Odum report; because that source note would have made it a lot easier to rub this in a few CTers' noses just that much sooner).

Jim D. doesn't think it's at all strange that Earlene Roberts testified that a police car would occasionally stop in front of 1026 Beckley and honk its horn on days PRIOR TO NOV. 22. And Roberts said the "tip-tip" of the horn was the same kind of "tip-tip" horn-honking that Alexander & Burnley would do: Mrs. ROBERTS -- "It stopped directly in front of my house and it just "tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnley would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw it wasn't their number." I didn't distort anything. I said that the same kind of HORN-HONKING INCIDENTS, per Roberts, occurred on days when no Presidential assassinations were taking place in Dallas. DiEugenio, naturally, thinks the 11/22 horn-honking HAD to be conspiratorial in nature. No other explanation is to be accepted...or even considered. Right, Jimbo?

Earlene Roberts didn't say she stood there and watched Oswald "waiting" at the bus stop. He might have paused for a second or two (or maybe not even that). You're overstating what Mrs. Roberts said. 1964 Interviews With Earlene Roberts

What a load of horse dung. This is pot & kettle talk at its finest. You ABO CTers have made it a lifetime goal to exonerate a double-murderer named Oswald, and you don't care how many people you have to call liars to do it. Take the 12 or so Tippit witnesses, for example. You think they ALL identified the wrong man. All of 'em. I guess the whole state of Texas was out to frame your hapless patsy, huh?

She might very well have been lying about the horn-honking episode on Nov. 22. Because the odds are that such an incident probably didn't occur at the precise time she said it did that day (when Oswald WAS INSIDE HIS ROOM -- which narrows the timeline considerably, esp. when we consider the fact that it's highly unlikely that LHO was inside that room for more than 30 to 60 seconds that day; so the cop car would have had to pick that EXACT MINUTE to honk the horn; highly unlikely occurrence). And Roberts is almost certainly wrong about the "3 to 4 minutes" timing. Even she herself contradicted her "3-4 minute" timeline when she said to the WC that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440]. Now, how many people think it takes "3 to 4 minutes" to go into a crackerbox-sized room and put on a coat and come out again? 3 minutes? Pffft. Ridic. Yes. Of course she saw Oswald kill Tippit. (Obligatory "Duh!" required here.) And, of course, the same "Was She Lying?" standard should be applied by CTers to Helen Markham -- i.e., the CTers love her for her "1:06" timeline for the Tippit shooting; but they think she's dead wrong (or lying) when she positively IDed the CTers' favorite patsy as the murderer of Officer Tippit. Not all witnesses are 100% right about EVERYTHING. Everybody knows this. People are human. And humans make lots of mistakes. And one thing people are usually very bad at doing is reconstructing perfect timelines....which is why the witness statements are all over the map for several "timing" aspects of the JFK/Tippit case. Like Markham, for example, who told the FBI that the shooting had occurred "around 1:30", but she then tells the WC it was likely at 1:06 or 1:07. So, grain of salt required.

Yes, indeed. Another excellent suggestion. I'd love it if Prof. McAdams would join this forum. The more LN common sense that can be imparted to combat the outlandishly silly ABO conspiracy theorists who seem to permeate this place--the better.

Hell must have just frozen over! Robert "Z285" Harris and I agree on something! Holy mackerel!

I think the key point re: Roberts' horn-honking incident (which is the key to knowing any such Nov. 22 incident is NOT conspiratorial in nature, if in fact such a horn-honking incident took place on 11/22) is the fact that Earlene Roberts testified that such horn-honking incidents had occurred multiple times PRIOR to Assassination Day. Shouldn't that little PRE-Nov. 22 fact mean anything to any CTers? Or do the CTers think that the plot to frame Oswald was so detailed and intricate and perfect that the plotters made sure they tooted their horns outside the roominghouse at 1026 North Beckley Avenue on days BEFORE November 22nd....just so that it would seem like a NORMAL occurrence when the conspirators showed up at that same location on Assassination Day to play some role in Oswald's getaway (or whatever)? And btw, I don't place very much faith in Earlene Roberts' timeline of how long Oswald stayed inside his shoebox of a room on 11/22. No way he was in that room for 3 to 4 minutes [see thread-starting post in this thread or go HERE.]