David Von Pein

How could it be visible today? The SBT bullet (CE399) didn't hit any bony structures in JFK's body. And what's left besides JFK's bones in his casket today? Would there be any "tissue" actually left to examine?

Here is Campisi's HSCA testimony (May 22, 1978): http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacamp.htm

And if JFK's body were to be dug up, and the pathologists were to find that there's not a trace of the upper-back or throat wounds (since no bones were impacted at all), will that make the anti-SBT crowd stop crying foul? Of course it wouldn't. Because JFK is just the first portion of the "SBT". John Connally is the second portion. Such an exhumation would probably just make more CTers jump on Cyril Wecht's bandwagon. Cyril has always believed a single bullet did pass through JFK's body, but that it missed Gov. Connally (via some magical swerving missile of some kind). An exhumation, of course, would settle one controversy -- JFK's head wounds. It would confirm there was just one wound of entry, with that entrance wound being in the back of JFK's head (100mm. above the EOP), and ALL of the occipital portion of JFK's head would still be there. The occipital bone would be fractured in a few places, but no bone would be MISSING. But I wonder if most conspiracy theorists would even accept the conclusions of any new forensic exam after an exhumation? My guess would be that the outer-fringe CT mongers would still try to insist that something had been "faked". Although I don't know how even David S. Lifton could continue to promote the "body alteration" theory after a detailed re-examination of JFK's completely-INTACT rear of the head after such a proposed exhumation. Perhaps Mr. Lifton would then switch to the "Humpty Dumpty" theory, and claim that the amazing head-altering medical team at Walter Reed REALLY DID put John Kennedy's head back together again on the night of 11/22/63.

How would that be possible? The SBT bullet didn't hit a single bone in JFK's body. So how would it be possible to track (or even see) the SBT bullet wounds on JFK's decomposed body if no bones were impacted?

This thread might be slightly off-topic (but certainly not by much): I thought the video below might be of interest to many people here. It includes President Kennedy's complete and unedited 18-minute "Cuban Missile Crisis" speech to the nation on October 22, 1962. Normally, only small snippets of this powerful address are presented on television and in documentaries. But this video contains the whole 18-minute address. Source: The National Archives and Records Administration [NARA]. JFK'S CUBA SPEECH (10/22/62)(COMPLETE & UNEDITED) Downloadable versions of the speech can be found here: http://www.Archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.51510

Extra-large version of the Altgens photo (click on picture to enlarge to its fullest size): http://reclaiming-history.googlegroups.com/web/033a.+ALTGENS+PHOTO+%28EXTRA+LARGE+VERSION%29?gda=-EPzPF8AAABJPd41iw6FFGKEXXGXfN8Wj5142OQjCixjiIYGTsux951K-owUkrbjYfon4eO-wcqAY7K8nIlRV0ozD0jSkdOWZgCWaKSotOvb-lnZ1KVxZZxzIUqf6s0oL53Wkz8h1XQ

That is, indeed, an excellent point, Michael. And you're 100% right. I should have pointed out in this thread that Reiland made an obvious error just one second before he said the wallet was Tippit's. With the error being, as Michael Hogan noted, that the gun being held by Owens in the film was the murder weapon. I have pointed out that error by Reiland, btw, in other posts I have made on the Internet regarding this subject. But you are right to scold me for not including that information in THIS thread. It is, indeed, a "double standard". And I shall have to re-think the matter about HOW Reiland could have determined it was Tippit's wallet, and yet make the error about the gun being the murder weapon. So, yes, a good question is: If Reiland could be wrong about the gun in Owens' hand being the weapon used to kill Tippit (and he was wrong), then why couldn't he be wrong about the wallet belonging to Tippit? I still think it's quite likely that the wallet seen in Ron Reiland's film is Tippit's...but as I've also stressed in this thread, the wallet could really have belonged to anybody at the scene of the crime. Perhaps a witness. Who can know for sure? Nobody can. And nobody does. But I will maintain until the cows come knocking at my front door that the one person to whom that wallet most certainly did NOT belong was Lee Harvey Oswald. Because if it was Oswald's wallet (or a fake/planted Oswald wallet even), then we would surely have found that important information being placed in at least ONE of the police officers' reports associated with the Tippit murder.

You can stuff your silly "Baker" nonsense too, Jim. It's all a smokescreen, like everything you say. Baker saw LHO on the second floor and all REASONABLE people know this. It's one of the basic, raw FACTS of the case. And ROY TRULY verified it, as everyone can see in the videos below (Truly is only in the first video, however, but Officer Baker's story is clearcut and definitive in both videos; Jim D., naturally, must think that Baker continued to tell his lies for 23 years): http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/08/marrion-baker.html You, Jim, simply have no capacity for reasonably and rationally evaluating the evidence in the JFK case. And all one need do is look once more at this quote by you (Jim D.) in order to verify that what I just said is true (i.e., you stink at reasonably evaluating the evidence in this case): "I'M NOT EVEN SURE THEY WERE ON THE SIXTH FLOOR. .... WHAT'S THE DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE THAT THE HIT TEAM WAS ON THE SIXTH FLOOR?" -- Jim DiEugenio; February 11th, 2010 P.S. -- Can I now bitch to the moderators about DiEugenio pasting huge blocks of text from his CTKA site into this Edu. Forum for "advertising" his position? I hope you sensed the irony contained within my last sentence above, Jim.

Jim DiEugenio's reply in Post #470 was pathetic (as usual). Jim doesn't even wonder to himself the following --- Hmmmm....maybe DVP has a point when he said,

DiEugenio just wrecked his whole argument, and he doesn't even realize it. Because if Adams and Styles were REALLY on the stairs within 15 to 20 seconds of the last shot, it means they would very likely have gone down those stairs BEFORE Oswald. Therefore, Adams/Styles would not have had to SEE Oswald on the stairs. Duh. Of course, Adams' timing of 15-20 seconds is totally ridiculous on its face. There's no way they "started down the stairs" just 15 seconds after the shooting; and we also know how totally lousy people are at judging times accurately. But DiEugenio is willing to accept any hunk of nonsense (as long as it supports his ludicrous "Oswald Was Innocent" fairy tale). Adams and Styles were almost certainly on the stairs only AFTER those same stairs were used by Oswald, Baker, and Truly. And, of course, another little snafu that doesn't bother James "ABO" DiEugenio in the least is this question: Why didn't Adams/Styles HEAR or SEE Roy Truly and Marrion Baker on the SAME STAIRS they were on? And if Jimbo wants to counter with: The two women were on the stairs BEFORE Baker/Truly....then he's got a big problem. Because if the ladies were on the stairs before Baker/Truly, then it stands to reason those same ladies were probably on the stairs BEFORE Oswald too. Hence, they weren't going to see or hear LHO either. And also keep in mind that Adams and Styles started out on the FOURTH floor of the TSBD, which was two floors BELOW where Oswald started his down-the-stairs journey. And if all three of those people had started down the stairs at about the same time, it still wouldn't mean that Adams/Styles would have had to see Oswald, because Oswald started out two floors higher. DiEugenio is cooked on this "staircase" issue any way you slice it. And Jim also doesn't ask: Why didn't Adams/Styles hear the "REAL KILLERS" descending the same stairs? We know that nobody took the elevators down from the Floor Of Death (the sixth floor). So where did the "real killers" go? Did they cloak themselves and disappear? Or did they use their Bat Ropes to shinny down the side of the TSBD Building? These questions don't matter to DiEugenio however. As long as he can pretend Saint Oswald wasn't anywhere near the sixth floor, then Jimbo is happy as a lark.

Jim "Anybody But Oz" DiEugenio will, as usual, ignore the tests that have been done that PROVE that the "timelines" for various things that Lee Oswald is alleged to have done are DOABLE. They CAN be done....and the Beckley-to-Tenth trip is one of those DOABLE treks. I'll bet Jim DiEugenio still believes that it was impossible for Oswald to have gone from the sixth floor's Sniper's Nest to the second-floor lunchroom in less than 90 seconds too. Right, Jim? That journey from the 6th to the 2nd floor, of course, was re-created in 74 seconds by the SS for the WC. But that FACT never stops the conspiracy nuts from bellowing "It can't be done!" Pathetic. And Jim's attempt to discredit Gary Mack's test to Tenth St. is pathetic as well. But, as usual, it's always open season on Mack at a JFK forum. Par for the CT Monger course.

Date: 8/21/2010 3:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Gary Mack To: David Von Pein ----------------------- FYI..... Lee [Farley], You've been misinformed (or you weren't paying attention if you actually watched the show). The re-creation of Oswald's route to the Tippit scene Dave and I did WAS done continuously but not filmed that way. Dave and I rode in front of "Oswald" in a golf cart and the cameraman raced from point to point. The entire walk was timed without any stops or slowdowns, and the total time was the same as what several other conspiracy researchers have found over the years. The shortest route gave Oswald plenty of time, whereas the longest route was too long. The other one or two routes would have resulted in intermediate times. If you doubt me, walk it yourself or ask someone else to do it! Gary Mack

Me too, Michael.

I'd like to. But, then too, as I told somebody the other day, I don't visit each and every thread in this place. Not even close. So maybe that's why I've been missing your substance. But you don't find humor within the MULTI-GUN, ONE-PATSY plot that so many CTers endorse, huh Dean? If anything should elicit a belly-laugh (or fifty), it should be that silliness.

Then why are you doing it?

Question for Michael Hogan: How many "Oswald Was Guilty Of Killing Tippit Or Fleeing The Murder Scene With A Gun In Hand Immediately After The Killing" witnesses would it take to make you say: Oswald did it? 15? 20? 25? Or 35 witnesses? There are about 13 already. Were ALL 13 witnesses re: Tippit's murder coerced? That's just not a reasonable thing to believe. And then when you add in the Doughty/Dhority/Davis bullet shells (not even counting the Poe shells)--then Oswald's guilt is fixed in granite. Or don't you think Oswald had on him in the theater the V510210 gun that deposited those Doughty/Dhority/Davis shells on 10th St.? If you believe Oswald had V510210 on him in the theater, you cannot possibly set Oswald free for J.D. Tippit's murder. It's really as simple as that, Michael.

I didn't fully understand what you were saying about "stopping & starting" previously. So, you are now implying that the CLOCK was stopped in the middle of a journey that encompassed a mere 0.85 of a mile?? That's ridiculous. Why on Earth would anyone who wasn't in an iron lung need to stop and take a break on such a short trip? Where on Earth did you get such a silly idea? Who told you the 11-minute trip included BREAKS (plural?!); he needed more than ONE break on his across-the-desert trip of a whopping 0.85 of a mile, is that what you're saying? That's stupid. It's utter nonsense. It never happened.

LOL. Oh, sure. His face was bloodied and "smashed up" to an absolute pulp by those evil DPD bastards, wasn't it Lee? I can hardly tell that it's Oswald at all here, his face is so pulp-like. Get real: So is yours. I can see through you like a great-big ol' sheet of Reynold's Wrap.

Thank you for your concise and straightforward reply, Dean. I appreciate it. Lots of times I can't get a CTer to answer the simple basic questions like those. BTW, when I constantly say "ABO" or Anybody But Oswald, I'm referring to the people who truly think Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy AND didn't shoot Tippit either. My ABO references also refer to people who believe Oswald was a part of some "plot", but he never fired a shot at EITHER Kennedy or Tippit. And there are a lot of those type of CTers on the Internet. Way more than exist in the general population, Dean, as this 2003 ABC poll easily demonstrates, with only 7% of the 1,031 respondents thinking Oswald did NOT pull the trigger on JFK: http://www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy Well, to tell you the truth, Dean, I really haven't seen you post very much substantive material since my arrival here on 8/2/10. It seems like most of your posts are very short, and many of them consist of no words at all, merely this: So, I guess I've missed most of your posts that deal with any of the facts or details of the case. Sorry.

Huh? Sounds like you're implying that the people who did it in 11 minutes were STOPPING along the way to Tenth. (Am I missing something here?) They STOPPED, then started again...and still made it in 11 minutes? How does that HURT the bottom-line "11 minute" clocking of the journey, Lee? Please enlighten me. (And I just took a Helen Markham pill...so please go slowly.) The fact is the trip could be made to 10th St. in about 11 minutes. You, however, like the longer timelines, as all CTers in the ABO clique do. But what you want to be true couldn't possibly matter less. If it can be done in 11 minutes, it can be done in 11 minutes. -Mark VII- You can always still pretend Oswald was being impersonated on Tenth Street. The "impersonation" crappola is always a good "fall back" position for Oswald defenders anyway. Right, Lee F.?

Well, tell me straight out Dean, Are you a member of the popular Internet "ANYBODY BUT OSWALD" club?

Most conspiracy theorists on the Internet (and on Anybody-But-Oswald Radio, hosted by pathetic Mack-basher Len Osanic) love to perpetuate myths about Mr. Mack. They call him every name in the book, and for some silly reason they seem to think he has totally ABANDONED all thoughts of possible/potential conspiracy in the JFK assassination. It's just not true. Just because Mr. Mack can easily see what is so obviously true -- Lee Oswald took his rifle to work on November 22 and shot some people with it from the sixth floor -- many CTers seem to feel this automatically makes Gary a person who deserves nothing but scorn and verbal abuse. It's sickening to hear Mr. Mack being called the derogatory names he has been called on the Internet over the last several years. Gary Mack is a treasure, IMO. He is a walking encyclopedia on the JFK assassination (particularly when it comes to things dealing with the TSBD, Dealey Plaza, and other Dallas sites connected to the events of 11/22/63). He is always very cordial and forthcoming with ANY evidence and information he has come across--whether it be "LN"-leaning information or "CT"-leaning. Many people owe Gary Mack YEARS' worth of apologies. (IMHO.)

C'mon, Michael, you should be able to figure out Markham's "I didn't recognize anyone" testimony there. Mrs. Markham was obviously not the sharpest crayon in the Crayola Big Box of 64 with the built-in sharpener (or the newer "Big Box" of 96). I think we all know that. (And that isn't meant to be a shot at Helen Markham. It's just the way it seems to be.) Markham's testimony that Michael Hogan has cited above is, indeed, one great-big mess. It's actually quite hilarious now. But I don't imagine Joe Ball had a smile on his face when questioning Mrs. M. Yes, Markham says she had never "seen" any of the men in the line-up before. But we also know she picked Oswald out of the lineup and positively said that LHO was Tippit's killer. She even started to shake and cry the minute Oswald entered the lineup room. She knew who the killer was right away. But when Markham said she didn't "know" or "recognize" anybody in the police lineup, what I think she meant is that she had not been ACQUAINTED with anyone in the lineup at any time in her life. She was confused by Ball's questions. But, as mentioned, Helen wasn't an Einstein as far as intelligence goes either. Which, of course, is no doubt part of the reason that CTers feel so comfortable in dismissing her positive identification of Oswald. Ergo, CTers feel she was a dumb box of rocks who wouldn't know one murderer from another. But even if we toss Markham's IDing of LHO in the ash can, what are CTers going to do with the other TWELVE or so witnesses who IDed the same man (Oswald) as either Tippit's killer or the ONE & ONLY PERSON fleeing the scene with a gun in his hands? And Ted Callaway wasn't any Helen Markham either (referring to basic intelligence). I think even CTers will agree that Mr. Callaway was a pretty smart cookie. FYI -- MARKHAM & CALLAWAY VIDEOS: MARKHAM CALLAWAY

Oswald wasn't wearing any jacket while on McWatters' bus on 11/22, Lee. You know that. And he wasn't wearing any jacket in Whaley's cab either. Whaley was mistaken (times three, incredibly). He said at one point that Oswald had TWO or THREE jackets on. That's silly. We know Oswald entered the roominghouse sans any jacket. Housekeeper Earlene Roberts said he was in shirt sleeves when entering, and zipping a jacket when leaving. Bottom Line --- William Whaley positively IDed Lee Oswald as his 11/22 cab passenger. And he wasn't just looking at CLOTHING. He IDed the man from his face. To think that a jacket (or two--or three; LOL) trumps a positive identification of facial features is just not logical. Sorry, CTers of the world, but it isn't.

The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder scene has been done in about 11 minutes, Lee. You know that. And the most important re-creations are the ones that can determine (if possible) the MINIMUM amount of time that these things can be done in -- like the cab re-enactments. We've got two conflicting times, yes. No doubt about that. We've got a nine-minute trip and a 5.5-minute trip. But since we know beyond all doubt that the trip CAN be made in 5.5 minutes, why on Earth would the Warren Commission assume that the NINE-minute trip is more reasonable, even though they also knew darn well that maybe Oswald and Whaley made the cab trip in just 5.5 minutes? Another LNer at another forum pointed out a similar line of thought regarding the re-creations of Oswald's alleged movements when he went from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the second-floor lunch room. The other LNer made a good point in asking (in essence): Why in the world didn't the WC and FBI do a reconstruction of Oswald's movements AT THE FASTEST SPEED POSSIBLE by Secret Service agent John Joe Howlett (who is the SS man who performed two such re-creations in the TSBD in 1964 for the Warren Commission)? But the WC and Howlett didn't perform a "FASTEST TIME POSSIBLE" re-creation. If they had, Howlett would certainly have been able to shave quite a few seconds off of his two "walking" times. Howlett did one reconstruction at a "normal walk", which was 78 seconds; and he performed another re-creation at a "fast walk", which only shaved four seconds off his time, with the "fast walk" re-creation clocking in at 74 seconds. But an out-and-out RUNNING re-creation would have resulted, quite obviously, in a much quicker time on the stopwatch -- probably well under 60 seconds. But, even though the WC did not perform such a "fastest time possible" test, Howlett (even while WALKING) was able to get to the second floor in only 78 seconds, which was a few seconds ahead of Marrion Baker's average of 82.5 seconds for his two re-creations of his November 22 movements. I wonder why more conspiracy theorists never bother to take note of the raw FACTS that I just mentioned in my last paragraph? (Maybe it's because such raw FACTS would shoot to hell their silly notion that they've embraced for decades--i.e., the notion/myth that Oswald could not possibly have made it from the Sniper's Nest to the lunchroom in under two minutes.)