David Von Pein

Does the CIA manual say anything about the "reliability" and "safety" of a "Frame The Patsy" assassination plan which has the designated "patsy" being located nowhere near the "firing point", thus ensuring the plot will be exposed almost immediately?

You mean Dave Powers, not Red Fay, right? Fay wasn't in Dallas that day. You're assigning a sinister motive to something that certainly doesn't have to be sinister at all --- i.e., the message about Oswald being the only assassin....which was, indeed, a true statement, both at that time and now. Yes, I'd say it was a bit premature to say that LHO had positively "acted alone" at that early stage (prior to 6 PM on 11/22), but the message was merely relaying the information that was available as of that moment. Why does it have to mean anything above and beyond what I just said?---i.e., that at that moment in time on 11/22 while AF1 was still in flight on the way to Washington, the best information from the DPD was that the one and only assassin had been caught. That wouldn't necessarily have to mean that the situation couldn't change in the coming days if/when more info becomes available to implicate more conspirators, right? Right. I feel the same about the Katzenbach memo too. CTers assign sinister meanings to every paragraph in that memo, when none need be there at all. And, in fact, logic should tell everyone that if Katzenbach had really intended his Nov. 25 memo to be a "cover-up at all costs" memo, he wouldn't have committed such an admission of guilt on his part to paper. And, therefore, since only a total fool or a brain-dead moron would have committed such a "sinister" memo to paper, that has to mean that the covert and sinister meanings that conspiracy theorists have been assigning to the Katzenbach memo for the last 50+ years are not actually covert or sinister at all.

Ridiculous. And neither you or the late David S. Lifton have a single shred of proof to back up the nonsensical statement you just made. And that's a fact!

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/03/ Why Did Oswald Deny Killing President Kennedy?

Here's the 11/23/63 Dallas newspaper that contains the erroneous info about JFK dying on the "sixth floor". Click to make bigger:

I think a logical question of equal importance that should be asked by everybody is this one: WHY would any powerful group even want to develop a plan involving such a complex mechanism of murder such as the one that has been theorized by Mr. David S. Lifton since 1966? With that complex mechanism, per Mr. Lifton, including a PRE-PLANNED cloak-&-dagger "hide-the-body and alter-the-body and fake all the films and frame the designated patsy by shooting the victim from the other direction" plot. Couldn't these professional assassins have found a much "quieter" way of ridding the world of Mr. Kennedy? Or were the plotters/assassins only interested in being able to set the Guinness record for "Most Evidence Faked And Manufactured In One Single Day"?

Welcome back, Lance Payette! So good to see you here again!

FYI.... Here's a radio interview I saved in 2013 featuring SS Agent Paul Landis (and SS Agent Ron Pontius also is heard): http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Paul Landis Interview (November 23, 2013)

And here's what SS Agent Paul Landis said in his very detailed and lengthy official Secret Service report, much of which, if we're to believe what David S. Lifton has said during his November 2013 video interview, is nothing but one big lie (emphasis is DVP's): "After we rode under the overpass I again looked at the President's car and saw Special Agent Clint Hill lieing [sic] across the trunk. He was looking back towards the Follow-up car shaking his head back and forth and gave a thumbs-down sign with his hand. ATSAIC Roberts asked if anyone got the exact time of the shooting and someone said "about 12:30 p.m."; then someone told me to get inside the car and pulled me by the arm. My sun glasses fell off and Special Agent Bennett handed them to me. By now we were on an Expressway and a few people were standing in spots along the way waving as we went by. ATSAIC Roberts was telling the other agents in the Follow-up car to cover Vice President Johnson as soon as we stopped. Sometime around 12:37 p.m. we arrived at Parkland Memorial Hospital. I immediately ran to the left rear side of the President's car, reached over and tried to help Mrs. Kennedy up by taking hold of her shoulders. She did not want to let go of President Kennedy whose head she held in her lap and she was bending over him." https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

That's right, Vince. And here's SS Agent John Ready telling us that very thing about getting inside the SS follow-up car (emphasis is mine): "I left the follow-up car in the direction of the President's car but was recalled by ATSAIC Emory Roberts as the cars increased their speeds. I got back on the car and seated myself beside Mr. Roberts in the right front seat." https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm

......

No, it's not. On August 26, 2020, I downloaded that same "Assassinate Kennedy" version of the 11/22/63 L.A. Times from Newspapers.com (seen below). And I don't think for a minute that Newspapers.com is in the habit of putting "fake" papers on their website. Do you? And, BTW, the "Morning" designation for this LA Times edition would be correct, because Kennedy was shot (and died) in the "morning" (L.A. time). It was 10:30 AM Pacific Time when JFK was shot and 11:33 AM L.A. time when Kennedy was pronounced officially dead. Click (twice) to enlarge to 7258px:

It's almost certainly Clint Hill's foot. The foot is in just about the exact same spot in all of the photos presented above. And in at least 2 of those pics, we can see without doubt that Hill has his foot dangling over the side of the car, in just about the same spot (and angle) as in the controversial Miller photo. So what are the odds?

And here's the Miller photo, which Lifton said shows Ready's foot:

You're wrong. The remarks mean exactly the opposite---i.e., Lifton (at least as of 2013) thought the driver shot Kennedy. Just read Pat Speer's post from early this morning---here.

Thanks for the update, Steven. And also: thanks for providing us with the information about the passing of Mr. Lifton. If it weren't for your post on December 6th at 9:22 PM EST, evidently nobody on Earth (other than David's immediate family members) would have any idea that David had passed away. Because there apparently hasn't been any news about it on any wire or major news network at all---even after six days. That seems very strange to me. I remember when my favorite attorney (and JFK "expert"), Vincent Bugliosi, died in June of 2015, I was quite surprised when news of his passing didn't come through for about two full days. I thought that was a lengthy delay at that time. But now we've got an "official news" delay that's three times that long. Quite odd.

Several years ago, I added some links to my blogs to some of the JFK-related Wikipedia pages, but after a day or two Wiki removed every one of them. I was told by somebody there at Wiki that they don't accept any links from anyone's "blogs". You can link to a non-blog website, but a "blog" cannot be linked to at Wiki (at least as of circa 2010). Which, IMO, is a bit unfair and shortsighted on Wikipedia's behalf.

Thank you, Jamey.

But apparently your edits, Steven, were removed a second time today (Dec. 11 @ 16:41 UTC), because the Wiki page is still showing David L. to be alive as of this post at 3:20 PM EST on Dec. 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton So it would seem, Steven, as if your edits aren't going to stay on DSL's page until Wikipedia can confirm (in their minds) David's death via some type of "official" source. Or maybe they even require two or three "official" sources. I have no idea.

What have I said in this thread that makes me a "terrible human being", Adam? I'm allowed to have an opinion about the JFK case (and Mr. Lifton's theories) too, you know. And, like Pat Speer, I have intentionally avoided saying anything of a derogatory nature about Mr. Lifton in the "David Lifton Has Died" thread. I feel that that thread should not be used to bash David in any way. In fact, I said some nice things about DSL in that thread, HERE.

Gerry Down, I've got a page on "The Spacing Of The Gunshots" on my website/blog in which I talk about the "Evenly Spaced" witnesses. It's not exactly definitive on the subject, but it might help you a little bit: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / The Spacing Of The Gunshots Fired In Dealey Plaza

OK. Thanks, Pat. I'm pretty sure Lifton mentions something about Paul Landis driving the limo at some point on 11/22.

Oh yes. I know (and realize) that fact. And in a way, that makes this situation even more bizarre. Because after Kossor's edits to DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8th, it probably means that somebody at Wikipedia was searching (somewhere) for a "published source" in order to confirm Kossor's edits. And they still haven't found one---after several days. Very odd, IMO. And evidently nobody else in the world (whether it be Wikipedia employees or otherwise) has attempted to update DSL's Wiki page either (since Steve Kossor did it on Dec. 8). And that's quite odd too (IMO). A further note on this (just "for the record").... Even when Mr. Lifton's death is confirmed by Wikipedia (and I think it will be), I still think this multi-day delay in finding any kind of "published source" to confirm David's demise is mighty strange. For gosh sakes, if a third-string catcher who played only one game for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1965 passes away, Wikipedia has that guy's page updated within 24 hours. (And, yes, even that guy would have a Wiki page; every player who's ever played even one game in the Major Leagues has his own Wiki page.)

Oh my! This just keeps getting better and better (i.e., goofier & goofier). So does that mean that GREER is the dead SS agent? (Because, Pat, you now know that Lifton DID believe a SS agent WAS killed, and his body was secretly stashed on AF1 and disguised as "Lyndon's Luggage".) But if Greer was shot dead by John Connally, I wonder who it was who gave this testimony in front of the Warren Commission? But I guess that wasn't a problem for a creative thinker like David Lifton. He probably thinks "the plot" provided for such a contingency, and a "Greer Double" popped up out of the woodwork to testify instead of the real Bill Greer. Or does Lifton think it was Paul Landis who was killed in the limo? Or maybe John Ready? Or perhaps Roy Kellerman? Any idea, Pat? If we get any more people crowding into that limo, we're going to need a shoehorn to wedge them all in. Oh, BTW, Pat, did Lifton ever tell you if Connally supposedly shot William Greer with the gun that some CTers have told me Connally would sometimes carry in an ankle holster?

BTW / FWIW: The Wikipedia Watch: As of now (2:00 AM EST on Dec. 11), five days after Steven Kossor announced David Lifton's death at this forum, DSL's Wiki page is still saying that David is still with us. Obviously, the people at Wikipedia who have to "confirm" everything that is added to every Wiki page, cannot confirm Mr. Lifton's passing beyond just the word of Steven Kossor (who is the one who edited DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8, only to have Wiki override Kossor's death notice just one day later, on December 9). I wonder why Wiki can't confirm (in a period of three days now) Kossor's changes to DSL's Wiki page? Seems very odd to me. Question for Steven Kossor: Have you tried to re-edit David's Wiki page a second time yet, to add back in the things you already added on Dec. 8th? And have you had any contact with the Wiki people who decided to override your original edits one day after you created them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton