David Von Pein

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / The Continuing Myth Pushed By CTers Regarding The Connally Bullet Fragments

There's this HSCA testimony provided by Marina Oswald, which lends support to the idea that LHO did, indeed, on multiple occasions in 1963, go somewhere to "target practice" with his rifle:

Thank you, John. And a happy 2023 to you also.

Why are you saying "no one saw it there", Pat? Marina saw the rifle in the Paine garage, sometime in late September. She testified about seeing it in the blanket: "There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle." (WC Testimony of Marina Oswald) I think Oswald, after removing the rifle from the blanket, probably arranged the empty blanket in such a way to make it appear (as much as he could) that the gun was still inside the blanket. Not a difficult task really. I think Oswald made an effort to try and conceal the paper from Frazier. Does anybody have any idea how big the pockets were in the blue jacket that Oswald wore to work on Nov. 22 (which is, I would assume, the same jacket he wore to Irving on 11/21)? And were there any pockets on the inside of that jacket? The answers to those questions might prove quite useful indeed. Well, nobody saw Oswald get up on Friday morning either. And, as far as I know, nobody saw (or heard) LHO make himself that cup of instant coffee in Ruth Paine's kitchen on Friday morning either. And nobody (AFAIK) saw or heard Lee physically leave the Paine house either. And he surely was making some sound (noise) when he did all of those things on Friday morning that nobody saw or heard. And that's probably because everybody in the house was asleep at that hour. Which might very well be the answer to this "problem", Pat: Lee Oswald could very well have been smart enough to wait until early Friday morning to go into the garage to wrap up the rifle. But Lee could have possibly constructed (i.e., taped together) the paper gun case the previous day before he ever left the Book Depository, which would mean he wouldn't have needed to spend nearly as much time sneaking around the Paine garage handling and taping together the crinkly paper package. That task could have been performed on Nov. 21 while he was still at work in Dallas. Via the above scenario, of course, it would mean that it probably wasn't Lee who left the light on in the garage at all. Like Pat Speer said above, there were, indeed, multiple other candidates who could have conceivably left that garage light burning on the evening of 11/21. But the fact is: LHO did definitely carry a long-ish paper bag into the TSBD on 11/22. That fact is beyond debate, unless CTers are willing to call both Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle li@rs (which many CTers now do). And there just happens to be a 38-inch empty paper sack (CE142) in the evidence pile connected to the JFK investigation. And that bag has two of LHO's prints on it. More fake evidence? Most CTers seem to think so. But there are about a half-dozen DPD officers who DID testify that they saw the empty brown bag in the Sniper's Nest. So, to me, that's a "huge problem" for the CTers who try to exonerate Oswald. In every murder case, there are invariably some things that don't quite "add up". But if Oswald really took a SHORTER bag into the TSBD (as claimed by Linnie and Buell), then where did THAT bag disappear to? Why wasn't a 27-inch bag found instead of that 38-inch bag? And if LHO really did take some curtain rods into the TSBD, then where did those things go? Do conspiracy theorists really believe that some curtain rods were found later in the Depository, despite Roy Truly's statement in CE2640? In my opinion, the "Conspiracy" version of the JFK assassination is filled with ten times more holes than the "Lone Assassin" version of that same event.

Which, of course, is only "clearcut evidence" to conspiracy theorists. In other words, it's all subjective "evidence". It certainly was anything BUT "clearcut evidence" of a conspiracy to the Warren Commission or to the HSCA. Every last bit of the "evidence" that John C. claims is "clearcut evidence" of a JFKA conspiracy can be explained in non-conspiratorial ways. A multi-player "conspiracy" need not be required at all. Take the alleged "sheep-dipping of Oswald", for example. Conspiracy theorists insist that virtually everything Lee Oswald did in the weeks and months (maybe years?) leading up to 11/22/63 was part of some well-orchestrated "dipping" process to get Oswald to take the fall for JFK's murder. But when probing deeper into each of the "dipping" episodes, we find that the CTers' claims hold no water at all. The best example of this being the "Ruth Paine Planted LHO In The TSBD" nonsense. All reasonable individuals know beyond any doubt, however, that Ruth Hyde Paine did not (and could not) have "planted" Oswald in that building in mid-October '63 for the express purpose of trying to frame him for the upcoming murder of the President.

The above is one of the most ridiculous (and flat-out wrong) statements that has ever been uttered on this forum. Congrats, Mr. Cotter.

It's good to see a Warren Commission lawyer, Burt Griffin, come to the defense of Ruth Paine. Kudos to Mr. Griffin for doing that. But if Mrs. Paine ever decided she wanted to take legal action against Max Good for the slanderous conjecture that appears in his 2022 film ["The Assassination & Mrs. Paine"], I'm not sure if the case that Ruth would present would be a fruitful one. I say that because even though some of the things presented in Max Good's film are no doubt slanderous and just flat-out wrong (and ridiculous), the fact is that Ruth Paine herself was willing to be a part of Good's film and to be interviewed by him on camera--and, hence, defend herself from the crazy conspiratorial accusations that have been made against her over the last 50+ years. So might not that fact diminish her chances at winning any such lawsuit, since she herself was an active participant in the film, and as such she very likely was fully aware that she would be forced to defend herself on camera from many of the charges that have been made against her? So, in the case of Good's film, Ruth certainly had to know what she was getting into when she agreed to be interviewed for the film. Of course, if bits and pieces of the film that were favorable to Mrs. Paine were left on the cutting room floor, then Ruth's "case" against Mr. Good would obviously be a bit stronger. But, in my view, Ruth definitely would likely have a solid legal case (if she ever chose to go down that road) against some of the slanderous things that have been written about her on the Internet and in books over the years. In those instances, Ruth never had a camera shoved in her face in order to respond directly to some of the insane charges that have been made by various conspiracy theorists on the Internet in the last several years. I've tried my best to defend Mrs. Paine from many of the preposterous claims that have been made against her. (See link below.)

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No, Jim. JBK is Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy.

Another fun game to play is the "If Only" game. I put together this "If Only" list a few years back: ------------------------------------------ IF ONLY .... Lee Harvey Oswald had been successful in his suicide attempt in Russia on October 21, 1959. IF ONLY .... Bonnie Ray Williams had decided to watch the Presidential motorcade from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, instead of going down to the fifth floor shortly before President Kennedy drove past the building. IF ONLY .... TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly had not hired Lee Harvey Oswald on October 15, 1963. IF ONLY .... Roy Truly had assigned Oswald to work at the Houston Street TSBD building, instead of the building at 411 Elm Street in Dealey Plaza. IF ONLY .... Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle had jammed at Z313. IF ONLY .... Lee Oswald's father had not died shortly before Lee was born. What influence would it have had on Lee's whole life if he had been able to grow up with a father in the house, instead of being raised solely by that really strange mother of his, Marguerite? IF ONLY .... Marina Oswald had agreed to immediately go back to Dallas to live with her husband when Lee asked her to do so on Thursday, November 21, 1963. IF ONLY .... Linnie Mae Randle's house had been located further away from Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Texas. If Randle hadn't lived so close to the Paine home, it's very likely that Lee Oswald would never have found out about the job opening at the Texas School Book Depository. IF ONLY .... it hadn't stopped raining in Dallas on the morning of 11/22/63, shortly prior to JFK's motorcade through the city. If the rain had continued, then the plastic bubbletop roof would have been affixed to the President's 1961 Lincoln Continental limousine as JFK was being driven through the streets of Dallas, which might have deflected the bullets away from the President's body. The roof might have also deterred Oswald from firing any rifle shots at the car in the first place (if Oswald had been of the opinion that the bubbletop roof was bullet-proof, which it wasn't). IF ONLY .... Arnold Rowland had alerted a policeman about the gunman he saw on the west end of the Book Depository Building at approximately 12:15 PM on 11/22/63. IF ONLY .... Buell Wesley Frazier had been unable to drive Lee Harvey Oswald to work on the morning of November 22nd. What would Oswald have done then? Would he have carried his rifle package on a bus? (Perhaps.) Or in a taxicab? (I doubt it.) Or would he have awakened Ruth Paine and asked her to drive him to work, with the 38-inch-long brown paper package in the back of Mrs. Paine's Chevrolet station wagon? (I very much doubt it. It's unlikely he would have wanted to use the "curtain rod" lie in front of Mrs. Paine. Of course, if Ruth asked "What's in the package, Lee?", Lee could have always thought up a quick lie on the spur of the moment, I suppose. He could always tell Ruth that Marina made him an extra-large submarine sandwich for lunch that day.) IF ONLY .... Lee Oswald's paper bag had ripped open on the way to work. If it had ripped, it might have allowed Wesley Frazier to see what was inside the bag (a rifle), and it might have made Oswald think twice about using that now-exposed weapon as an instrument in a Presidential assassination attempt a few hours later. IF ONLY .... Police Officer Marrion Baker had detained Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor of the TSBD. If Baker hadn't turned Oswald loose in the lunchroom, the life of policeman J.D. Tippit would have been spared. IF ONLY .... Lee Harvey Oswald had been caught in the act of attempting to kill retired General Edwin A. Walker on April 10, 1963. IF ONLY .... Lee Harvey Oswald had been successful in his attempt to reach Cuba and/or the Soviet Union during his trip to Mexico City in September 1963. If he had gone to Cuba or Russia in September, would he have returned to Dallas, Texas, in November to shoot President Kennedy? IF ONLY .... Ruth Paine had not met Lee and Marina Oswald at a party in February of 1963. IF ONLY .... the Texas Employment Commission had attempted to contact Lee Harvey Oswald just a day or two earlier than they did, to inform Oswald of a job opening at Trans-Texas Airways (a job that would have paid Oswald $310 per month, which is over $100 more per month than his TSBD salary). Records indicate that the Texas Employment Commission attempted to contact Oswald by telephone on October 15, 1963, which was the exact same day he was hired by Roy Truly at the Book Depository. Records further indicate that the TEC last attempted to contact Oswald about the Trans-Texas job at 10:30 AM on October 16, 1963, which was the same day Oswald began working at the TSBD. [Also see Warren Report, Page 247.] IF ONLY .... Bullet CE399 hadn't fallen out of Governor John Connally's left leg. If that bullet had remained in Connally's thigh, instead of falling onto his hospital stretcher, it would have saved millions of words from being written by conspiracy theorists about the bullet having been "planted". IF ONLY .... Karen Carlin had waited one more hour to call Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963. Such a delay on Carlin's behalf would have meant Ruby would very likely have not been in a position to shoot and kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the basement of Dallas City Hall at 11:21 AM CST on 11/24/63. IF ONLY .... One more customer had been in front of Jack Ruby at the Western Union office. IF ONLY .... Lee Harvey Oswald hadn't taken the time to put on that black sweater before being escorted into the basement. IF ONLY .... Jack Ruby had not owned a revolver. IF ONLY .... Jacqueline Kennedy had pushed her husband down inside the limousine before the fatal bullet had a chance to hit its mark. If only. David Von Pein August 2010 and February 2015

Either Oswald was the lone assassin or many people worked in concert with each other to make it merely look like Oswald was the lone assassin. Given the above choice....which option is most likely to be the correct one?

You're right, Bob. I previously said I was going to keep this thread "clean" and not say anything negative about Mr. Lifton in this thread. So I'll delete my previous post. Sorry.

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Same here. Such as when I called out Sandy's latest batch of nonsense on page 28 of this thread.

I'll argue in the way that pleases me, John. And even though you're berating me and my "child"-like arguments (and thanks so much for that valuable link!), no reasonable person can possibly disagree with the crux of my last post. (Key word there---"reasonable".)

True. And Sandy above proposed a theory I don't think I had ever heard coming from the mouth of a CTer before --- this one: "The coverup artists invented the story of Ruth and Linnie Mae Randle talking about where Oswald might get a job." -- S. Larsen Which means, of course, that not only Ruth and Linnie Mae had to do their "patriotic duty in preventing WW3" (LOL), but Marina Oswald also had to go along with the "fake story" in her WC testimony too. And if Dorothy Roberts had provided WC testimony, she too would have been added to Sandy's Li@rs List. But Dorothy wasn't called to testify by the Commission, so Sandy's list of lying Irving housewives is a little bit smaller than it could have been. Sandy's theory goes a long way toward proving the longstanding motto/mantra of JFKA CTers---which is: If you don't like the evidence (or the testimony) in the JFK and Tippit cases....just pretend it's all fake (or lies).

Oh, brother. What a spectacular load of make-believe B.S. that was/is. Sandy Larsen is so deep in his fantasy-based conspiratorial weeds, he'll likely never get out.

From Fred Litwin's blog post dated Dec. 18, 2022: [Quote On:] "Two days ago, I posted a message from James DiEugenio on the Education Forum in which he wondered when the CIA was going to release an HSCA report on whether Oswald was a CIA agent. My post included a link to the exact report. Clearly, Mr. DiEugenio did not read my post." [/Quote Off.] Here's Fred's full blog post: https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/was-oswald-an-agent-of-the-cia (Since Jim D. has all LNers "on ignore", maybe some CTer can quote this post and then do that "@Jim DiEugenio" thing that notifies him of this post.)

Another Happenstance / Coincidence / Luck Addendum.... Here's yet another "coincidental fact" regarding the topic of Ruth Paine: The coincidence/luck/happenstance of Ruth Paine, Linnie Mae Randle, and Dorothy Roberts all knowing each other and wanting to get together at Dorothy's house for coffee on Monday, October 14, 1963. Even though the Paine and Randle houses were only separated by one-half of one block (as we can see for ourselves in this photograph taken by the FBI in 1964), that close proximity of the two houses certainly didn't automatically mean that the people living in those homes would personally know each other or have any desire to know each other or have any desire to want to get together for a coffee klatch at another neighbor's house (Dorothy Roberts) on 10/14/63 (or any other day). So, given these basic undeniable "coincidental facts", it makes me wonder if certain conspiracy theorists also want to pretend that the October 14th coffee klatch was somehow "pre-arranged" by someone connected with "The Plot", so that people like myself would later be able to make this assertion with some confidence: There's no way everything connected with the way Lee Oswald got his TSBD job could have been planned in advance by a band of CIA-sponsored housewives on Fifth Street in Irving, Texas.