Antti Hynonen

Okay, what do you think the obituary will prove? Why go through the trouble of getting it if it is likely only a "reiteration of his family's belief" and won't be to your satisfaction anyhow? Unless it is a story entirely different to what we've been told about him, what then? Yes, what is "value" of the obituary? If it states something rather different than what we have been told about RR Carr, the JFK assassination witness, what then? Do we simply assume that he must be a totally different man? Or, do we assume that RR just committed perjury at the Shaw trial? I think if the obituary is indeed that of the the same man (same RR Carr we're hoping for, right?), it will state the most relevant things about him/his life and help us put his credibility issue to rest. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see if his wife might be willing to confirm some of RR's statements, the Ranger issue, especially if the obituary supports what we know about him. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what it says before we make a judgement.

Bernice thanks for the photos! Glad to see Dealey Plaza from a completely new angle as well. It immediately opened up other possibilities regarding angles and lines of sight.

Sounds much better, thanks! Yes, the foreman probably should have been on the 9th, them folks do move around you know, the foreman could have been on the 12th instead and Carr could have been on the 9th when he saw what he saw. Hard to say how it actually went down, since it all took place some 8 years prior to my birth. The point is to try and make sense of what Carr claims to have seen imo, and not to focus on what floor he was on. If you scrutinize every word of each witness, I'm sure you will be able to do the same kind of "debunking" with a great number of them. You seem to approach his case now with the assumption that Carr was a pathological lxxr, whereas I, for example, allow him the benefit of the doubt and consider him a bona fide witness. Do you really expect me to reply to that? If his obituary states he was a Ranger, will you then consider Carr's statements as his best recollections of the events of 11/22/1963 and him an honest witness? I do hope he is our Richard Randolph Carr. The USA is a big country and I'm sure there are many folks with the exact same name. You and I have done some fairly thorough research and we've only come across 2 men with that name. The other was born in the mid 1850's (not our man) and the other could very well be our man as discussed earlier on this thread. Hoping for a break-through regarding his identity. I'm sure Myrtle could set the record straight about this RR Carr. Well, it's not my business to update military records, nor do I want to take that task upon me. I'm mostly interested in what Carr had to say after the events of 11/22/1963 and I do find it interesting that he was attacked on several occasions especially after he came forward with his statements.

Duke says: Sure, Carr didn't parrot the exact same facts at each deposition, agreed, but 3 completely different stories? How about 3 somewhat inconsistent stories, instead? Carr could have been wrong about being on the 7th floor of the new court house. After all you have demonstrated how he seemed to change details over time (probably because he didn't remember exactly or because he didn't pay attention to the level he was on). Carr could have actually been on the 6th floor or the 8th or 9th floor, just as well. Does this make him a perjuror? I think not, he deposed each time as well as he could remember. You have seen and I have seen that time and time again, witness statements tend to change slightly over time - nothing new about that. Of course statements made by others, and heard by a witness may affect this witness' statements as well, this also is quite common. However, it does not make a witness' statement a "completely different story" necessarily. You can compare Carr's testimony to that of many of those who claimed to have seen the assassin on the "5th floor" or the "7th floor". Whereas the official record claims that the assassin was on the 6th floor. Not many agreed that the assassin was on the 6th floor. You have also shown (recently on a different thread) how it is not possible for Carr to have seen what he has claimed to have seen from the 7th floor of the new court house as it stands as a finished building, today. As I have said earlier, Carr's precise location on 11/22/1963 at the unfinished new courthouse does not necessarily exist today, as he may have been standing on part of a temporary frame/staircase extending beyond the location of the finished building as it stands today. I would say that it is not possible to determine Carr's line of sight precisely from the existing photos of today. Additionally Carr was at street level after he had witnessed the shooting, this is where he made further observations. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...13705&st=20 Duke says #38 (in the link above): "Frankly, nobody can go to where Carr was at the time because he was on a staircase built on the outside of a steel structure over which a wall of windowless stone was placed. The only ways someone could get there now is to rappel down from the top of the building, climb up the wall from below, or be lowered in something like a window-washer's gondola." Do you see how your opinion changes as well? Please see also post #25 (same thread, above) here for the visual from the TSBD south east corner of the 6th floor to the new courthouse under construction. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0 In post #1 (this thread, link here above) you expressed doubts about R.R. Carr's enlistment in the military. You also stated that he may not have been a Ranger at all. In post #40 of this thread I showed you his enlistment data. Duke says: #1 Furthermore, a NARA search of Army enlistees returns only one "Richard R. Carr," who enlisted at Atlanta, Georgia (born 1922, making him 40 or 41 in November 1963), and only two named "Richard Carr" with no middle initial, one enlisting in South Carolina and the other in Missouri (born in 1905 and 1910, 58 and 53 respectively); all others named Richard Carr have different middle initials than "R" for "Randolph." While it is possible that any of those three might be "our" Richard Randolph Carr, it is by no means certain. In my mind all you have proven is that Carr was no better as a witness than the other witnesses, his statements varied somewhat as time went by but we are still a long way away from showing he was a perjuror, which in my opinion is futile anyway.

David R. Vonpein Mooresville, IN Please see: http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerso...ocaltime=survey

Ok, great. I believe she is about 75, some 12 years younger than her deceased husband would be today. There are of course the other relatives living in the area as well, who may also prove to be good sources of information.

Wow, Finding more information was easier than I thought. I am now convinced that Richard Randolph Carr is indeed the man born in Georgia in 1922, enlisted in the Army in 1942 and passed away in West Virginia in 1996. That is, I'm 90% sure he is also the man who witnessed the JFK assassination. To find out the middle name of Richard R. Carr (that is as precise as they were about his name which had been filed in SSDI and military). All I did to find out that the middle initial indeed was "Randolph" was to go to whitepages.com to see if he or a relative (Carr) had a listing in Norton WV. By golly they sure did. http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/ala/ne...earchtab=people Myrtle Carr is Richard's wife no doubt and I bet she'd have a few stories to tell. She is listed in Norton, WV. Apparently so are RR Carr's son or brother (Jack), and nephew or grandson (Kevin). Anyone brave enough to call?

Duncan, Moderation activity is mostly a result of filed reports. This means that once a member files a report based on another members' inapproriate post, a mocderator reviews such a post to determine whether the post is indeed violating Forum rules. In this case the post in question was a violation of Forum rules. Of course at times, moderators will moderate posts without reports, based on their own findings. Other members are more sensitive to insults than others. If you feel you have been insulted by other members, please file a report, and I will review the posts as time permits. Otherwise I will assume you are not bothered by any exisiting posts. By the way, in the pinned threads, there is a thread on moderation. Please use that thread to discuss moderation issues, instead of starting new ones. Thank you!

Duke and others. I have registered as a member on ancestry.com That is the source through which I have access to social security and other publicly available government data (a fee is required). By signing up to paid services I am able to read the information on-line. There is a cancellation policy, which enables no charge if you cancel within 14 days.... The military enlistment data came from ancestry.com and apparently the US Government military records. Here's the latest message from another member, just confirming what Duke found out about a potential Richard R. Carr, born in 1922, GA: "That I can help you with. I just needed a few more facts. -- Pat RICHARD R CARR 29 Apr 1922 04 Aug 1996 (V) 26285 (Norton, Randolph, WV) (none specified) 259-05-1542 Georgia Source: Social Security Death Index" So, death on Aug. 4th 1996 (Norton, Randolph, WV), the local paper should be able to help with the obituary.

RR Carr's military enlistment data. Name: Richard R Carr Birth Year: 1922 Race: White, citizen (White) Nativity State or Country: Georgia State of Residence: Georgia County or City: Fulton Enlistment Date: 2 Oct 1942 Enlistment State: Georgia Enlistment City: Fort McPherson Atlanta Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA Branch Code: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA Grade: Private Grade Code: Private Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law Component: Army of the United States - includes the following: Voluntary enlistments effective December 8, 1941 and thereafter; One year enlistments of National Guardsman whose State enlistment expires while in the Federal Service; Officers appointed in the Army of Source: Civil Life Education: Grammar school Civil Occupation: Semiskilled mechanics and repairmen, n.e.c. Marital Status: Single, without dependents Height: 66 Weight: 128

Sorry to say I've had no luck so far in finding out info on RR Carr. Here's the response from ancestry.com "Your Richard Randolph Carr is not my Richard Randolph Carr. Mine was my grandfather and he was born in the 1800s. Maybe there is a connection but I don't know of it. The name is right and the location is right but nothing else matches. Billie Carr Bocetti" We'll see if anything else develops. The leads with the last known contact info for RR Carr, known by some other researchers, may prove to be a more fruitful avenue.

NIH is next door to the Bethesda, National Naval Medical Center, where Kennedy was autopsied.

I posted a request on the ancestry.com "Richard Randolph Carr" thread. Let's see if I'll get a reply to my request for an obituary on RR Carr who served in WW2 and was a witness at the Clay Shaw trial. I'll be sure to get back if I hear from the good folks there.

Robert, I think the obituary would indeed be the best way to proceed. Having read about R.R. Carr, I recall that he moved to Atlanta GA, some time after the Shaw trial, probably in the late 1960's early 1970's. I would not be surprised if he stayed in the Atlanta Ga, area for the remainder of his life. By searching on the net, I found out that there is geneology data on a Carr family from the Atlanta area, and one person was actually called Richard Randolph Carr, but as I recall his d.o.b. was not what I had expected (19th century, something like 1878, a bit old to take part in WW2, no?), I'm going from memory here. This made me think that this RR Carr may have been an ancestor of our RR Carr. I mean what are the chances that someone has exactly the same name and is not related to our RR Carr? We're not exactly talking about a name like John Smith here. Sorry to all John Smith's! This Atlanta connection, I believe is a hot one.... (I am guessing RR Carr moved there as he probably had relatives there). One possibility would be to post onto the geneaology thread actually titled "Richard Randolph Carr". I suppose it is a long route and a long shot as one needs to register and then hope that someone will revive the old thread from 2001, I believe it was. I did a search for Richard Randolph Carr on the Dallas Morning News website (obituaries is what I aimed for). The search produced one article, which the system claimed to be a match. All excited, I went ahead and paid for it, unfortunately it was not related to RR Carr. The article was about the Oklahoma City bombing 1995? and it listed the names of the victims, one of whom had the last name Carr. Talk about 3 bucks going down the drain. I would have done the same for the Atlanta area predominant news paper (The name escapes me now), however, I was unable to find a similar "search" function with that paper. Perhaps someone else will be more successful. However, I'd focus on Atlanta GA. Good luck! Antti

Please see this thread, start from the beginning for aerial views and photos taken on or around 11/22/1963 and then see this post #44, by Duke for a look at the street view towards the new court house. You can clearly see the support structures of the new court house as well as the staircase I mentioned earlier. Also note how much higher the new court house and the support structures extend than the old court house, which is partially blocking the view towards the TSBD. The taller new court house construction would imo be a good vantage point for observing the top floors of the south east corner of the TSBD as well as the motorcade, once it got onto Elm. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...13647&st=40

I do not think it is possible to determine Carr's exact line of sight since we do not know his exact location(s) at the new court house construction site in 1969. Additionally, as this building was being constructed at the time, the pictures of the building from November 1969 show that there was some sort of scaffolding & support structure around the building. It looks to me that it is possible that the top floors of the incomplete building were accessed via a temporary staircase and likely a temporary construction site elevator, which were most likely mounted onto the outer perimiter of the building attached to the scaffolding. These additional construction phase, temporary elements would have enabled a far better line of sight towards the TSBD and North, up Houston street. Furthermore Carr may have been mistaken about some details, such as street names or of his descriptions with regards to North-South directions and whether the two white men he saw were on the 6th, 7th or 5th floors. Therefore, I'm not saying Carr got it all correct, I'm saying his statement in general agrees with what other eye witnesses stated with regards to the origin of at least some of the shots (coming from the grassy knoll) and that there were more than one person on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. Considering the distance to the TSBD from the new court house it does seem unlikely that he could make out such detail as the heavy horn rimmed glasses and the type of hat worn by the 2nd man he observed at the TSBD. However, the way I have understood Carr's testimony is that moments later, when at street level, he observed what he believed to be the same man as he saw in the window (heavy horn rimmed glasses, felt hat, moving rapidly). Now being at a closer distance to this man, he was able to make out the details. Carr also mentions a Rambler station wagon and men getting into it near the TSBD; to him it looked as if they were escaping due to their hurried departure. Other witnesses also mention a Rambler STW leaving the area. Nevertheless, despite all the new facts discovered by Duke, I would still give Carr the benefit of the doubt, at least with regard to the statements by him that have been corroborated by other witnesses. I just do not see any benefits from making up all these detailed statements. After all we need to keep in mind that Carr was attacked and threatened after he became a known witness. He attended the Shaw trial in a wheelchair, as he had suffered some severe injuries after an "accident". If he was seeking publicity, it sure caused him a lot of pain and grief instead of fame and fortune.

I think Duke is right. The 5th battalion never fought in Anzio as a battalion. However, the 4th Ranger battalion was supplemented by troops from the 2nd and 5th battalions (replacements), before Anzio. Heavy losses were incurred by the 1st 3rd and 4th battalions. It is possible that Carr was originally a 5th battalion member, was among those who were re-assigned as replacements to the 4th, which fought in Anzio (rescuing those left of the 1st and 3rd bat). To me it is unclear if the it was the 3rd or 4th bat. which lost (dead or captured) all but 6 men in Anzio. In fact the 6615th Ranger Force (provisional) was a unit formed of numerous Ranger battalions and 1 Parachute Infantry battalion. It was the 6615th which took part in the assault on Anzio. If there is a complete list of names of those who took part in Anzio, and RR Carr is not present, then he probably did make up his military background. However, records have been known to be incomplete or inaccurate.... even military ones. Some links with background on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6615th_Ranger_Force http://www.flashman.com/Cisterna.htm http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=53&art_id=249 http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:O-7hnZ...;cd=3&gl=fi http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/1...anger-Battalion

Bill, Yes, you are probably thinking of Julie Ann Mercer. Julie Ann's description of the events is different than Yates' on several points: Julie Ann says it was Nov 22nd (Friday), Yates says Nov 20th (Wednesday) Yates says the man had the brown package inside the truck, Julie Ann discusses a gun case, pulled from the back of the pickup, where tool boxes were present Yates says he dropped "Oswald" off on Houston, and Julie Ann and the pick up were on Elm Julie Ann describes the man as mid to late 20's with a wool hat with a tassle, Yates does not mention this in his description - but IMO he would have, in case we'd be talking about the exact same event (a bit unusual in TX in November, no?). http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/mercer.htm

Bill, I recall that there is a thread on this issue on the Forum already. I remember commenting that this Yates fellow recalled surprisingly much (too much to be true?) about this conversation, considering the car ride must not have been longer than 10 minutes or so. Additionally, this man (Oswald?) that Yates seems to have picked up said quite a lot in 10 minutes, considering that neither man knew each other previously. Third, I wonder why he waited with this deposition for over 2 weeks (Nov 20th - Dec. 10th), understandably, one would have waited until after Nov 22nd, but Dec 10th??? To wrap it up, to say the least, this statement of Yates' is odd.

Yes, 2 different fellows. In 1963 Roy S. Truly (of TSBD fame) was 56 years old, maybe 150-160 pounds and about 5'7" - 5'8". In the first link above (BK) it is thought that the other Roy Truly was about 45 years old, 6'2" and 200 lbs and worked as a chauffeur and handyman for a Dr. in the 1950's. TSBD Roy Truly had worked at the TSBD since 1934. See below: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm Testimony Of Roy Sansom Truly Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly. Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. TRULY. I do. Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is. This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of' the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d. Will you state for the record your full name? Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly. Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live? Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex. Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925. Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir? Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex. Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date? Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907. Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school? Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard-- Mr. BELIN. In Texas? Mr. TRULY. In Texas. Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school? Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since. Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas? Mr. TRULY. I believe my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co. Mr. BELIN. What business is that? Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods. Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them? Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year. Mr. BELIN. And then where did you Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co. Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them? Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years. Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them? Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets. Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go? Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years. (At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days. Mr. BELIN. All right. And after the depression, where did you start working then? Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934. Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934? Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Yes, The DPD were also unsuccessful in obtaining any fingerprints off of the rifle. The FBI succeeded sometime later with a partial palm print, which they attributed to LHO. Also the purported rifle bag found in the TSBD did not seem to contain any oily marks, despite the allegation that the rifle had been in the bag. Also, no rifle cleaning materials nor any extra bullets were found among the possessions of LHO. I find these facts rather unusual. The evidence is very clearly inconsistent in this case. Bill, I'm just trying to bring in all the pertinent facts and statements, as they relate to the discussion. Further acknowledgement of the existance of Lee's rifle (prior to 11/22/63) is abundant in Marina's testimony.

Did Lansdale wear glasses as this man does in this photo? Or do you believe this was a disguise?

Here is some testimony relating to Marina's knowledge of a rifle being stored in the garage at Mrs. Paine's house in Irving. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in." Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you? Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out." Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you? Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did. Mr. BALL. What part did you take? Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle. Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle? Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did. Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

You mention two types of Carcano models, ones that Tom has alluded to in the past. 1. Which model was it that was photographed in the backyard photos? 2. Which model was it that was photographed as having been retrieved from the TSBD right after the deed? I am referring to the photo of the rifle as it is being held high, by Lt. Day. 3. If LHO ordered the 91/24 rifle for the sum of USD 19.90 or something, and if on the otherhand he was claimed to possess a 91/38, wasn't it not a more expensive model? How likely was it that Klein's made this error? 4. Did Klein's make such mistakes with other Carcano orders in 1963? Any knowledge of such?

Don't know if this helps, but.... ...here's what I can make out: 66/67C Thursday Nov 21st Statler Hilton 1 p.m. Friday Nov. 22nd 10:00 AM Present 30 Year? XXXXX XXXXXXXXXX Mrs The rest is illegible to me.