Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Most of the Texas Employment Commission records about Lee Harvey Oswald disappeared while in FBI custody. A few were published in the Warren Volumes as Cunningham Exhibits,
Jim,
One person who is missing from that list (unless her name is included on a following page you didn't include in your post) is Louise Latham.
I believe in the possibility of coincidences as much as the next guy, but there are some coincidences that are kind of eerie. In this area, there are several that I can think of:
Ofstein and Oswald
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Oswald and Ofstein were the same age. They were both born in 1939
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They both worked at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall
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They were both referred to JCS by Louise Latham at the Texas Employment Commission
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Ofstein went through the Monterey School of Language and the possibility exists that Oswald may have as well.
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Ofstein was in the Army Security Agency, Oswald may have had something to do with the U2 base in Japan
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time.
Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.Out of the blue, Jenner asks Ofstein if he knew Lousie Latham.
John Graef testified before the Warren Commission on March 30, 1964.
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can.
“In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department.””Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her?
Mr. GRAEF. “I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham”. “They have a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing with them they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, I became familiar with one person.” “... So, I called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her name was Louise Latham.”Perhaps someone can explain to me why Louise Latham would send someone who has a background in sheet metal work qualifies as a photographer.
Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:
hi Steve
The recollection that Oswald was leaving the welding job seems to place the meeting in question as October 7th.
You are absolutely correct that things don’t add up. This is another topic in which skilled investigators operating in an official capacity should have noted contradictions and sought clarification. They failed to do so, and contributed to the ambiguity which defines much of the record.
Stories of Oswald’s supposed desperate unemployment are linked, in 1962, to efforts to separate Marina from Lee (as were stories of spousal abuse). Oswald quit the welding job on October 8 and was hired at J-C-S on October 12. During the autumn of 1962, deMohrenschildt was making inquiries for Oswald in the field of industrial security. That seems to be the sort of work Oswald was hoping for, and presumably needed assistance or reference to obtain. The Reilly’s job in New Orleans seems to be linked to eventual placement in that field (co-workers hired at NASA), or served as cover - if one considers Oswald’s link to Banister’s agency as likely an industrial, or private security gig. When Oswald returned to Dallas in October 1963 he told Mary Bledsoe he was attempting to get work at Collins Radio and/or Texas Instruments.
Marina Oswald’s animus to the FBI was said to have been stoked by an impression that they had interfered with Lee’s employment or stymied application for employment. But there is no record of the FBI intervening against him at Leslie Welding, J-C-S, Reilly’s Coffee, or the TSBD. Might the FBI assisted in blunting some of Oswald’s attempts at employment in the industrial security sector, deliberately or not? Perhaps Oswald returned to Dallas feeling the FBI had somehow messed up his ability to gain traction in the industrial/private security field through his efforts in New Orleans?
Jeff,
You wrote, "Stories of Oswald’s supposed desperate unemployment are linked, in 1962, to efforts to separate Marina from Lee (as were stories of spousal abuse)."
That was my thought too, as I was putting that thread together. The narrative of who Lee Harvey Oswald was, that was put together for us in the Warren Report, might not necessarily be the correct one. The idea that the Oswald's were destitute because Lee couldn't find a job is wrong. He had a job. I also hadn't realized up until that point that he was a sheet metal worker.
Irrespective of whether he wanted to be a photographer, or work in the import/export business, he was gainfully employed. Marina said that Lee felt the work was beneath him, but that takes a skill set, I know that I don't have.
I hadn't known of his interest in the industrial security business. Perhaps he shouldn't have pissed off Max Clark huh?
PS: October, 1962 is a very interesting period in Lee Harvey Oswald's life. I can't help but see that time period against the backdrop of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the beginning of his efforts to infiltrate the Cuban exile community.
In her Chronologies, Mary Ferrell has the following notes, but these may be based on George Bouhe's WC testimony:
October 12, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says “Im fine”.
October 15, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says,“I'm fine.”
October 16, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe and says, “Im fine.”
October 17, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “Im fine.”
October 18, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “I'm fine.”
Now, that may be somebody is who is faithful to a certain time, and who is taciturn; but then again, it may be something else entirely.
On October 19th the calls stop. Oswald checks out of the YMCA and disappears for two weeks. He is working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but no one knows where he is living. Not his wife, not his bosses at JCS, not his co-workers, not his acquaintances.
Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Among the TEC documents that disappeared were those prepared by TEC employee Laura Kittrell, who had interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald several times just weeks before the assassination of JFK, including a lengthy interview of nearly two hours. Kittrell stated that after several interviews with Oswald, a different man, similar in appearance, came to her claiming to be "Lee Harvey Oswald." This Oswald impostor remained in her memory and she tried on many occasions to inform authorities about him, including a two page registered letter to Attorney General Robert Kennedy dated December 26, 1963, and a 20-page letter to the Warren Commission via the Dallas U.S. Attorney in April 1964.
She was ignored by the Warren Commission and not even briefly interviewed by the FBI until July 1965.
Finally, in 1978, Gaeton Fonzi of the HSCA interviewed her and he prepared a lengthy memo to Blakey about the interview. Two pages of Fonzi's memo are shown below. If you are pressed for time, just start reading the last paragraph on the first page below.
Jim,
Wow.
You could do a whole thread on that subject alone.
I didn't even know there was an Industrial office and a clerical office.
Steve Thomas
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Let's assume for a minute that Lee Oswald was part of a fake defector program set up by the CIA or ONI, and as part of that program, the defectors were told, “You do this for us, and we'll have a job waiting for you when you come back.”
Oswald would had to have been given a job commensurate with his experience, with what he was qualified to do.
Lee Harvey Oswald in His Own Words: The Collective
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thecollective.htm
“500 people, during the day shift, are employed on the huge stamp and pressing machines; here sheet metal is turned into metal frames and cabinets for televisions and radios. I worked for 23 months at this plant.”
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm
“Mr. LIEBELER - Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE - Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.”http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/taylor1.htm
“Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed the life that he led in Russia,... That he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of Minsk,
Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to do.”
According to Marina, after they got back to the U.S. On June 17th, they lived with Lee's brother Robert, and Lee loafed around for about a month. A month after they got back, Lee went to work for Louv-R-Pac, a division of Leslie Welding. He started on July 17th.
Tommy Bargas, the foreman of Louv-R-Pac told the WC that he went through the Texas Employment Commission looking for a sheet metal worker. He swore up and down that it was nothing out of the ordinary, and just a regular part of doing business. He didn't call the TEC himself. His secretary called.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bargas.htm
Lee must have registered with them some time in June, but the thing is, there isn't anything from the TEC in the WC records prior to his getting a job at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in October.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_r.htm
Testimony of R.L. Adams Placement Interviewer, Texas Employment Commission
Mr. ADAMS - I joined TEC on March 9, 1962.
Mr. ADAMS - At the time that I--in September, ,beginning the second week in September of 1963, I was brought in from employment service representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to gain some experience on a placement desk.
After I had been there, well, when November the 22d rolled around and a couple of months--when this happened, the following Monday morning when I came to work, I said, "I'll bet that boy is in my flies."
I went to check and I couldn't find any record of it, and the office manager said, "What are you looking for?" And I said, "You know what I am looking for." And he said, "I've found it."
Mr. JENNER - Who is the office manager?
Mr. ADAMS - Mr. A. K. Sayre [spelling] S-a-y-r-e.”On August 14, 1964, Mr. Arthur K. Sayre, Office Manager at TEC made available to the FBI a card on Joe Molina, so was still there as late as mid-August, 1964.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11821&search=Sayre#relPageId=54&tab=page
When Lee Oswald got back from Russia, he was taken under the wing of George Bouhe, the personal accountant of one of the richest men in America, and Max Clark, the Supervisor of Industrial Security and Investigation for Convair, a position which required access to information up to and including Top Secret.
In looking a this question, I ran across an anomaly, or a discrepancy, or whatever you want to call it.
George DeMohrenschildt and the Oswalds arranged a party at their house for Sunday, October 7, 1962. They were supposed to be introduced to the the divorced couple, Elana and John Hall, and Gary and Alexandra Taylor. Marguerite Oswald and George Bouhe were also there. The problem is, the people involved seemed to have a problem as to when that party took place.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hall_j.htm
Mr. HALL - The first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.
I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Forth Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about - when I made one of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday,We went over to their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas - DeMohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. HALL - Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/taylor1.htm
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them? (the Oswalds)
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962.Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or was it a purposeful meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was prearranged.Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962.Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife anybody else present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother was there.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was there--- John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her name---first name.
Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a--Hall?Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday afternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job---which I believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his employment. don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from it--and he wanted to move to Dallas.Mary Ferrell Chronologies
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40390#relPageId=76&tab=page
Sunday, October 7, 1962
deMohrenschildt's attend an afternoon concert of Van Cliburn in Fort Worth (22H175) (24H868)
Meets the Taylors at the Oswalds. Also present are George Bouhe, Elena Hall, her ex-husband, John Hall. They discuss that Oswald has no job, that he has left his job the Friday before.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bargas.htm
Tommy Bargas, Foreman at Leslie Welding.
“Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment?
Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours.
Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time?
Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day?
Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken”.Oswald worked Monday, and Tuesday he failed to show up.
Oswald started his job at Leslie Welding on July 17, 1962 and according to his time sheets, and pay stubs, his last day of work was Monday, October 8th.
Did the Taylors and the Halls meet Oswald in August?
Was it September?
Was it October?
George Bouhe told the WC that the party was on Saturday.
If Oswald worked through October 8th, how could they be discussing on October 7th that he was destitute and had no job?
Did he tell the party goers that he was going to quit? He told Marina that:
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was discharged?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know why.Something is not adding up here.
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:
Steve,
I think you meant p. 398?
I am checking it out. Right now I am reading....
"Brother(?) junior exec. Acme Buick"
Brother (?) "Staff sgt - Air Force"
Michael,
Thank you. I told you my eyes weren't so good. *smile*
But you did help me figure out he was talking about both of his brother's; Robert, who worked at Acme Brick, and John Pic, who was a Sgt. in the Air Force.
Steve Thomas
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https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=415&tab=page
Cunningham Exhibit 1 is an employment record with the Texas Employment Commission.
On page 298 of CE 19, (page 2 of Cunningham's exhibit), under Conditions Affecting Employment, there is something about an Air Force Sergeant.
My eyes aren't so good. Can someone make out what that says exactly?
Thanks,
Steve Thomas
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20 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Also some discussion on changing a bumper sticker from "Kan the Kennedy Klan" to "Kill the Kennedy Klan." It also covers the crew at "Hollandale."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=69111#relPageId=1&tab=page
David,
I had put up some information I had learned about the crop dusters and also this possible Rambler lead on a web page in case you're interested here:
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:
LOL, so my dad Herb Santos, Sr. is being inducted into the National Boxing Hall of Fame in April in Los Angeles.
Cory,
Congratulations on your dad.
Steve
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6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:
Do we know, or can you recall if there were FBI agents actually participating in the bust? Or that the local FBI office was tipped off prior to the bust? Marina names Army Intelligence agent (here we go again) Ed J. Coyle in her letter to Tunheim. Wasn’t he with Ellsworth on the morning of the assassination? He is another possible source for a tip off leading to the bust.
Paul,
I don't think I've ever read who in the Dallas FBI office was the lead agent on the Miller/Whitter/Masen case. According to the LaFontaine's; Coyle, Ellsworth, and Hosty met in the the morning of the 22nd to talk about the Armory thefts and the possible involvement of members of the Minutemen and Edwin Walker's group. Since that was Hosty's forte, that was why he had invited Hosty to the meeting (at least according to the LaFontaine's). See Oswald Talked, p. 283:
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Steve,
I'd recommend reading Gayle's book. (plug
) She goes into quite a bit of detail on the White Rock Lake picnic. She also interviews Larry Schmidt, Robert Surrey's children and Father Machann.
This may be of interest. You have Sylvia Odio's friend Father Machann asking Sylvia Odio's Uncle Joaquin Insua to introduce John Martino at a JBS sponsored event. Also some discussion on changing a bumper sticker from "Kan the Kennedy Klan" to "Kill the Kennedy Klan." It also covers the crew at "Hollandale."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=69111#relPageId=1&tab=page
Oswald giving speeches to anti-Castro Cubans - http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Odio Sylvia/Item 35.pdf
David,
Thanks for the info on Gayle. I sent her a message. Thanks also for the reference on Heitman's 5/22/64 Report. I picked up a couple of details I hadn't had before.
REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE
NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726&relPageId=2
On pages 5 through 6 of that Report, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro furnished a list of the present officers of SNFE. Among that list of people on page 6 were Raul Castro and Juan Quintana.
Raul Castro and Juan Quintana were trained as crop dusters in Mexico. Quitana told Heitman that the training was obviously military in nature. I mused aloud one day about the possibility that some of these "crop dusters" were double agents sent over by Castro to infiltrate the cuban exile community. I have info on others.
Castro and Quitana had entered the United States by swimming across the Rio Grande at Brownsville, TX. They had married Mexican sisters.
Warrren Commission Document# 1085 is a June 11, 1964 letter from J. Edgar Hoover with attached memoranda and reports. Included in that letter is a heavily redacted April 29, 1964 report from Dallas SA Wallace Heitman.
CD 913 is a March 30, 1964 Report of Robert Gemberling. Included in this Report is information relative to the "Kill the Kennedy Klan" bumper sticker and persons receiving mail at an address in Garland.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=174
However, Gemberling's report INCLUDES the names of the people. The mail being reported on dates from late December and early January, 1964.The Rambler station wagon was owned by Castro. Quintana had put the bumper sticker on it. After the assassination, people were observed trying to scrape that bumper sticker off. I wish Roger Craig had been asked if the Rambler station wagon he saw had had bumper stickers on it.
I need to cross-reference the date of that JBS meeting with Michael Paine's WC testimony. It's possible, and I stress possible, that Lee Oswald was also at that meeting. There was one JBS meeting just prior to Adlai Stevenson's speech that was poorly attended because so many people were gearing up to "greet" Stevenson. The signs were stored at Edwin Walker's home.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:
folks here would be well served to pick up copies of the those as many of the topics still showing up on this forum were being discussed at length and by people much closer to Dallas and the time...one of the first things I did was get back copies of all the Third and Fourth Decade magazines (edited by Jerry Rose) to get up to speed. Amazing what you find in them that seems to have faded out of these dialogs today. You can find the Third Decade online at MFF.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Featured_The_Third_Decade_Journal.html
Larry,
There was some awfully good research going on then.
I stand in awe.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Thanks for elaborating on this, Steve.
Do you think Buddy Walthers was talking about the same house on Harlendale, which he said was located at "3128 Harlendale"? In H&L, John indicated that Walthers really meant 3126 Harlendale, giving us no fewer than three different addresses for what appears to be the same place. Assuming Phillips was Orcaberro's (Alpha 66's) "Bishop," how could Phillips not have known all about this.
Jim,
I had to grin at myself. 1026 was the Beckley St. address wasn't it? Guess I must have been sleepy.
Yes, Walthers' address of 3128 was a typo.
see page 4 of Heitman's Report, page 222 of CD 1085.
On May 20, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez voluntarily appeared at the Dallas FBI offices and spoke to Wallace Heitman. He told Heitman that the members of SNFE met at bi-weekly meetings at 3126 Harlandale. (Although in his Report, Heitman spelled it Hollandale.)On page 220 of CD 1085 (p.2 of Heitman's 5/26/64 memo)
“Rodriguez registered as an alien of Dallas, Texas on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth Street”. His last prior address was 5310 Columbia Street, Dallas.”
Page 3. On February 10, 1964, Rodriguez told Heitman that in June, 1963 Andrés Nazario Sargén wrote Orcarberro a letter and asking him to establish a chapter of Alpha 66 in Dallas. He moved to Dallas in September, 1963.I misspoke when I said Orcarberro was renting the Harlandale address. They were just meeting there. The home was owned by Jorge Salazar.
I'm not sure what you are trying to says vis a vis Orcarberro and Phillips. Did you mean to say that Phillips was Veciana's Bishop?
Orcarberro was sent to Dallas to establish a Chapter of Alpha 66 there. He arrived in September, I believe. Veciana allegedly was there in September as well.
As far as your question about Oswald getting a new passport... I just happened to be reading a speech by Fidel Castro in the immediate aftermath of JFK's assassination and he asked that very question as well. Personally, after his speech to the Jesuit College in Alabama in July, and his radio debate in New Orleans in August, I don't see any way the Soviet Union would have allowed him back in their country. To me, that seems like a fool's errand. Your question seems to be getting into the whole Mexico City trip, and I don't know anything about that, and am not qualified to speak intelligently.
Steve Thomas
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13 hours ago, Gayle Nix Jackson said:
it fits in nicely with my "pet theory" that the DRE was the key to the Odio visit.
Gayle,
In your work studying the DRE, I thought you might be interested in this:
Cryptonym: AMHINT-2 by Bill Simpich
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=AMHINT-2
180-10142-10306: 180-10142-10306
see page 4
23 Aug 1963, (Richard) Cain reported he had been approached by representative of DRE and they attempted to recruit him to be trained in Central Am. The person who contacted him spoke on the phone in his presence to someone in Miami named...Salvat (AMHINT-2) and asked if his group is sponsored by the CIA. Salvat said the group is sponsored by "the Pentagon, which is in competition with CIA, and, therefore, all activities of the Directory must be kept secret."
Steve Thomas
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12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
Steve, in light of the way you've laid these occurrences out.. Is it conceivable that Oswald's cover was blown regarding infiltrating say DRE and Alpha 66 and his handler(s) realized this so he was by then useless in that respect, but, he could be useful and expendable as a fall guy or "patsy" in another operation? I know, just speculation. But reasonable?
Ron,
This is just idle speculation on my part.
The publicity surrounding his return from Russia in June, 1962 made him useless for any kind of Soviet counter intelligence work. He was on the front pages of several newspapers for heaven's sake. At that point, I think he was lent out to the FBI for anti Cuban-exile counter intelligence. He starts attempting to infiltrate various Cuban exile groups, but his approach is so heavy handed, and transparent that his usefulness there is coming to an end by the end of 1963. I read once that somebody described him as a "useful idiot." Another guy in the Cuban exile community (John Martino maybe?) said, "Poor Oswald, he didn't know who was running him". So, the answer to your question is:
Yes.
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
The "Miller/Whitter/Jhn Thomas Masen gun deal" you mention isn't quite registering with my tired old brain cells. Was an Oswald associated with that? Love the DRE/AMSPELL coincidence! Thank you for all of this!
Jim,
ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth sets up a sting operation involving John Thomas Masen.
Masen gets some of his guns from thefts from National Guard armories.
Manuel Rodriguez and George Parrel have approached Masen about buying arms. Masen has told Ellsworth that Rodriguez and Parrel have tried to buy bazookas, machine guns, and other heavy equipment from him, had previously made purchases from him, and that they had a large cashe of arms in the Dallas area.
Oswald has been seen entering and leaving a house at 1026 Harlendale St. in Dallas that Orcarberro is renting.
Just as he is about to bust Masen, the FBI and local police swoop in and arrest Miller and Whitter on November 18, 1963.
Ellsworth is forced to prematuely arrest Masen on November 20th
Marina Oswald Porter writes a letter to John Tunheim of the ARRB on 19th April, 1996.
I believe she sent her letter following the publication of Oswald Talked by the LaFonataines.
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“The Dallas field office and headquarters FBI reports on the arrests of Donnell D. Whitter and Lawrence R. Miller in Dallas on November 18, 1963 with a carload of stolen US army weapons. I believe that Lee Oswald was the FBI informant who made these arrests possible. I would also like to know what your board has done to obtain the reports of the US Marshal and the US Army on the same arrests, and the burglary these men were suspected of.”
To the best of my knowledge, the transcripts of that trial are still sealed.
You can read her full letter in an August 16, 2005 Education Forum post by John Simkin here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/4710-questions-for-marina-oswald/
Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:
'"Most" normal human character drivers in a car immediately behind another that is involved in a major impact collision like Lee Bauer's ( especially in broad daylight ) would not simply drive around and away from such an injurious scene.
Freudian slip Joe?
Don't hit me. I'm just teasing you.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Gayle Nix Jackson said:
Dear GOD Steve!
I so agree with everything you're saying and it fits in nicely with my "pet theory" that the DRE was the key to the Odio visit...as you remember, when Annie first answered the door, they asked for Sarita. As I mention in my book, Sarita was a member of the DRE and from all the interviews I did with people who knew her (including Father Machann's sister), she was the political one of the family. Now, Silvia is affiliated with JURE, not the DRE, and it is my contention (though I cannot prove it) that Silvia was protecting her sister and her sister's politics from these strangers at the door. Silvia, by all accounts, was very bright and knew Hemming as well. Her uncle, Augustin Guitart, her friend/intimate Father Machann; her cousin Marcella Insua....all these people were aware of her political leanings as well as her sister Sarita's. I have heard rumor that Silvia also knew Oswald before the visit, but I cannot confirm that. I interviewed Kiki Masferrer's son and he had nothing positive to say about the Odio family, nor could he confirm or deny the rumor about Oswald. Father Machann and his sister are just the opposite in regards to the Odio sisters. I agree with your contention about the DRE getting ahead of the story. It was the DRE that shared the missile pictures as well. Dreamspell huh? WOW!
Gayle
Gayle,
You wrote, "It is my contention (though I cannot prove it) that Silvia was protecting her sister and her sister's politics from these strangers at the door."
You also wrote, "I have heard rumor that Silvia also knew Oswald before the visit, but I cannot confirm that."
That is why I have been so focused on the picnic at White Rock Lake, where Oswald was supposedly seen. If my hunch is correct, it took place on September 7th - the same day day Veciana says he saw Oswald in the company of David Atlee Phillips.
I personally believe Sylvia's story goes deeper than just trying to protect her sister (although that is one element). I believe that people have been so focused on the strangers at Odio's door, and whether or not one of them might have been Oswald, that they have overlooked other aspects of Sylvia's WC testimony. To whit:
Commission Document 946 - SS Aragon Report of 5 May 1964 re: Sylvia Odio, Rogelio Cisneros Diaz page 3
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11342&search=%22Juan_Martin%22#relPageId=4&tab=page
On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Rogelio Cisneros told Aragon that:
Rogelio Cisneros, a JURE member in Miami, went to Dallas alone, by plane in June, 1963 for the specific purpose of contacting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE. “He further identified himself as Rogelio Cisneros Diaz, an officer of JURE, at Miami,Florida, and added that the name “Eugenio” is his designated “war name””.
The JURE office in Dallas was already in operation, having been established in May, 1963. He only contacted Sylvia Odio once. When they went to her house, Cisneros was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguez (Alvarada) (Alvereda?), their Dallas delegate, and no one else.
My question is, why would Rogelio Cisneros fly from Miami, FL. to Dallas, TX. alone, in a plane for the specific purpose of contacting Sylvia Odio in order to meet a gun runner who he had never met before?
Why her?
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95676#relPageId=46&tab=page
Johnny Martin 9923 Carnegie Dr. Dallas, Texas
Father Walter J. McHann (Mary Ferrell's database spells it Machann)
CE 2943 p. 402.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=438&tab=page
Letter from James Rowley of the Secret Service to J. Lee Rankin dated May 5, 1964. McHann interviewed by SS Inspector Kelly on April 30, 1964.
McHann was chaplain to the Cuban Catholic Committee of Dallas. They organized religious and social activities for the Cuban refugees. Did they organize the picnic?
McHann said he had been introduced to John Martin aka Juan Martin; and that one night, John Martin came to Sylvia's while he was there. McHann described John Martin as a Latin, but not a Cuban. Martin had a house in Dallas, but did not live there. He lived in a different city with his family. Sylvia seemed to know John Martin quite well.
McHann said he had no recollection of Manuel Rodriguez, George Parrel, or any of the officers of SNFE.
At the request of Inspector Kelly, McHann telephoned Sylvia Odio. In that phone call Sylvia told McHann that “John Martin was a Uruguayan who was supplying arms purchased in some South American countries to some Cuban groups.”
McHann told Kelly that in the phone call, she told McHann that the second man (not Leopoldo) who had come to visit her was Eugenio Cisneros.
Rogelio Cisneros was interviewed in Miami by Ernest Aragon of the SS on May 4, 1964. Rogelio told Aragon that he used the name Eugenio as a war name.
CE 2986 p. 349
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=385&tab=page
(This is also page 3 of CD 946)
Sylvia would later on tell the WC that McHann had mis-understood her about Eugenio in the phone call .
Lucille Connell also said she had been introduced to John Martin – a Uruguayan who was trying to obtain guns for the Cuban people in their efforts to overthrow Castro. She said she was suspicious of Martin because he claimed to be an “airplane engineer”, although Sylvia Odio stated he owned a washeteria.
FBI interview of Lucille Connell on November 29, 1963.
CD 205 p. 640
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=643&tab=page
TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO
The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odio.htm
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. That's right.Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonds to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could.
This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.
Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.There was something about selling bonds - it came up in the testimony of Carlos Bringuer, I think. Something about it being illegal to ask for cash directly, but you could sell bonds. I'll have to go look it up.
Steve Thomas
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3 minutes ago, Richard Price said:
While reading the "Frontline" transcript of Robert Oswald,as posted by Steve earlier int this discussion, I saw this. Here was a start. As far as material goods … the car … taking her to a grocery store the first time …
This is located in the area of the conversation when Robert is talking about Lee's arrival back in the US after the defection to Russia. What is to be made of this comment? The story is that LHO could not drive and did not have a car. Sorry for the slight disruption to this discussion, but just wondering if anyone else saw that.
Richard,
Good catch. I overlooked that.
Steve Thomas
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On 3/28/2018 at 10:50 AM, Gayle Nix Jackson said:
I too believe that Oswald was known to many in the Cuban Refugee Community, thus the thrust to "find" Father Machann and interview him. By the way, Machann told me it wasn't the Secret Service that interviewed him and asked him to call Silvia, it was his parishioner, James Hosty. Thanks for this enlightening thread Steve, it's right up my alley!
Gayle Nix Jackson
Gayle,
Here's why I have been asking.
Mike Kilroy and I have been having a conversation in another thread on the Forum entitled, "CNN: One JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory that Can't Be Debunked is that the CIA Did It!" that was started by Jim Hargrove, about the speed with which the DRE released biographical background on Oswald on the afternoon of Nov 22nd.
It was my contention that, by doing so, the DRE got ahead of the story and killed two birds with one stone. They not only undercut LHO by portraying him as a "rat bastard, Castro-loving commie"; but they also undercut the CIA. I think they were whispering behind the scenes that not only was LHO was a commie, but also that he was an informant for the government. I think the exiles has been compiling a dossier on Oswald from a long time back. Every time an "Oswald" was around, their plans were foiled.
April, 1963 a planned raid in Cuba is waylaid (Alpha 66)
July, 1963 a training camp in Lake Ponchartrain is raided (MDC)
August, 1963 Carlos Bringuer voices suspicion that Oswald is an informant (DRE)
September, 1963 a "Cuban associate" of Sylvia Odio is told to stay away from Oswald (JURE)
November, 1963 the Miller/Whitter/John Thomas Masen gun deal goes bad (Alpha 66)
Didn't Gerry Partick Hemming say that Oswald had contacted him and offered to help and Hemming told him to get lost?
After a while, you have to believe that people are putting two and two together.
I think this partially explains the CIA's post 11/22 panic over the Mexico City affair. The January 22, 1964 WC Executive Session analysis is spot on.
The DRE was initially formed as a propaganda arm. In this case, I think they out-Hunted Hunt and Phillips.
PS: Just as an aside, I read yesterday that the CIA AMSPELL cryptonym for the DRE was developed by Bill Harvey in November, 1962. When you put the DRE in front of it, it spells DRE/AMSPELL. Cute huh?
Steve Thomas
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On 3/26/2018 at 11:06 AM, Steve Thomas said:
Does anyone know when Oswald was first identified, or rumored to be a government informant?
Well, I think I got my answer, and it comes from Lee Oswald himself!
Frontline interview with Robert Oswald, November 19, 2013.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/
Following his return from Russia in the latter part of June, 1962, Lee Oswald gets a call from SA John Fain asking for a meeting. Oswald agrees. Afterwards, Robert asks him how it went. Lee answers, "Well, everything went all right. They even asked me if I had ever been an agent of the Federal government or the CIA."
"I said, What did you tell them?"
"He says, Well, don't you know? and just laughed."
Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII page 738
CE 824 - Copy of an FBI report by Special Agent Fain, dated August 30, 1962.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134&relPageId=764
“He (Oswald) agreed to contact the FBI if at any time any individual made any contact of any nature under suspicious circumstances with him.... he promised his cooperation in reporting to FBI any information coming to his attention.”
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:
I thought this was common knowledge. Excerpted from pp. 13-14 of Portrait of the Assassin by Gerald Ford….
“On Wednesday, January 12, the members of the Commission were hurriedly called into emergency session by the chairman.
Jim,
You could also direct people to the transcript of the January 22nd Executive Session itself here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1327
Warren: "He (Waggoner Carr) said that he understood the information had been had been made available so that the Defense Counsel for Ruby had that information, that he knew the press had the information..."
Warren: "If he was in the employ from 1962, September, 1962 up to the time of the assassination, it had to start over in Russia, didn't it, because didn't he get back in February? When did he get back here from Russia?"
(We'll never know exactly what Fain talked to Oswald about for those two hours out in the car.)
You have to know they were in a panic, because the Commission had met in regular session just the day before on the 21st.
Boggs: "I don't even like to see this being taken down."
Dulles: "Yes, I think this record ought to be destroyed. Do you think we need a record of this?"
Warren: "I don't."
Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Cory Santos said:
My wife went to law school at Michigan State. Aww, always strange coincidences right? LOL.
Cory,
Ah Hah! I knew it!
"Above and beyond the Fishel–Diệm connection, Michigan State had exceptional resources in two fields that the U.S. agencies in Vietnam lacked: law enforcement and public administration. "
You ready to come clean now? Huh? Huh?
Steve Thomas
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Justin McCarthy by way of Clare Booth Luce.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41853&search=doroth_AND+LUCE#relPageId=1&tab=page
See page 13.
This is a fascinating document in a way. "The Cuban Missile Crisis and the missiles left behind was not the end, it was just the beginning."
"Oswald went to the FBI." He said, "I know that, he was selling them information, and they did not believe him."Steve Thomas
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Olympic Dr., Larry Nassar's boss worked at Michigan State University.
Sigh.
Steve Thomas
) She goes into quite a bit of detail on the White Rock Lake picnic. She also interviews Larry Schmidt, Robert Surrey's children and Father Machann.
Cunningham Exhibit 1
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Steve Thomas
misspelled word
Jim,
You might be interested in looking at these two past threads in the Education Forum:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23289-cia-and-walnut/?tab=comments#comment-339791
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23111-ofstein-and-oswald/
I think there is a road that flows through the Military Intelligence - TEC - Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
The 507th ASA Group is interesting.
Steve Thomas