Steve Thomas
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Posts posted by Steve Thomas
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29 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:
Steve -
I can't believe Phillips would meet Veciana in Dallas without inviting him to come (via cutouts). It's interesting that on at least one count Veciana is correct - Cuban exiles were on 'lockdown' in Miami at the time. What do you think was going on? Did Veciana meet Phillips in Dallas or is there more to the story?
Mike,
I'm actually beginning to wonder.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:
David,
Or her uncle, Augustin Guitart Campuzado. He was with Bringuer at his August, 1963 trial.
David,
Then again, it might not be Guitart.
FBI Interview by SA's Norman W. Propst and Ural E. Horton, Jr. with Mrs. C.L. Connell dated 11/29/63
Mrs. Connell told the Agents that, “Odio further reported to Connell during this conversation (a telephone conversation between Sylvia Odio and Mrs. Connell on 11/28/63) that a call had been made in recent months by a Cuban associate of hers to an unknown source in New Orleans,
Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro was sent to Dallas to establish a chapter of Alpha 66. He established residency on September 6th. Veciana of Alpha 66 meets with Phillips in Dallas allegedly on September 7th. Who really arranged that Veciana/Phillips meeting?
When Veciana went back to Miami, did he tell anyone there about having met Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas?
Steve Thomas
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23 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:
David,
Or her uncle, Augustin Guitart Campuzado. He was with Bringuer at his August, 1963 trial.
Augustin Guitart interview (Sylvia Odio;.0swald's literature distribution)
Harold Weisberg 12/212/68
“Dr. Guitart considers himself a friend of Bringuier. At the time of the arrest Bringuier phoned him and excitedly told him about the affair, full of indignation. He did not see the literature distribution because he had classes. He went to the trial because he had no classes that day. He wanted to see Oswald and he sort of fortified his friend Bringuier.”
Steve Thomas
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35 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
Sounds like BRINGUIER again...
David,
Or her uncle, Augustin Guitart Campuzado. He was with Bringuer at his August, 1963 trial.
Look at this document. It's in the HSCA Subject Files.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=75141#relPageId=2&tab=page
Why was a memo on Guitart dated 5/28/63 being cc'd to the Chief, Personnel Security Division?
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Mike,
Something hit me this morning:
In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.
If Veciana was "confined" to Miami Dade County, why would Phillips ask him to violate that confinement? Wouldn't that have put Veciana in some kind of legal jeopardy?
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/veciana-oswald.htm
VERSION TWO
In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.
HSCA Report Volume X page 58
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=62&tab=page
“When two Cuban exile groups made raids against Russian installations in Cuba and a Russian freighter in the Cuban port of Caribarien, the Attorney General dispatched 600 Federal agents to Miami in an effort to prevent further actions against the Cuban regime. A directive was issued that prevented key anti-Castro leaders in Miami from leaving the area without Federal approval.”
When Veciana went back to Miami, did he tell anyone there about having met Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas?
Steve Thomas
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17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Carlos Bringuer was voicing those suspicions back in August.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bringuier.htm
Mr. BRINGUIER. And you see, in August 24, 1962,... person from the FBI contacted me here in New Orleans--his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking to me in the Thompson Cafeteria,... and he advised me and I quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are doing here."
After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the FBI
Mr. LIEBELER. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you on August 5, (1963)----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were suspicious of him on two different counts?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator working for the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de Brueys had said to you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. A year ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost a year prior to that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.Steve Thomas
Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits (26H738)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=774&tab=page
FBI Interview by SA's Norman W. Propst and Ural E. Horton, Jr. with Mrs. C.L. Connell dated 11/29/63
Mrs. Connell told the Agents that, “Odio further reported to Connell during this conversation (a telephone conversation between Sylvia Odio and Mrs. Connell on 11/28/63) that a call had been made in recent months by a Cuban associate of hers to an unknown source in New Orleans, Louisiana, requesting information on Lee Harvey Oswald. Odio volunteered that information was in turn received from the New Orleans source to the effect that Oswald was considered by that source in New Orleans to be a “double agent”. The source stated Oswald was probably trying to infiltrate the Dallas Cuban refugee group, and that he should not be trusted.”
Steve Thomas
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13 hours ago, Mike Kilroy said:
Interesting. Thanks, Steve.
Mike,
Something hit me this morning:
In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County.
Dan Hardaway reviews Veciana's book, “Trained to kill”
“When we get to the Phillips and Oswald in Dallas story, though, things get vague, very vague. For example, he never tells us why Phillips sent for him to come to Dallas in September of 1963.
If Veciana was "confined" to Miami Dade County, why would Phillips ask him to violate that confinement? Wouldn't that have put Veciana in some kind of legal jeopardy?
I don't think Phillips "sent for" Veciana to come to Dallas.
Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro was sent to Dallas to establish a chapter of Alpha 66. He established residency on September 6th. Veciana of Alpha 66 meets with Phillips in Dallas allegedly on September 7th. Who really arranged that Veciana/Phillips meeting?
Steve Thomas
Steve Thomas
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Carlos Bringuer was voicing those suspicions back in August.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bringuier.htm
Mr. BRINGUIER. And you see, in August 24, 1962,... person from the FBI contacted me here in New Orleans--his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking to me in the Thompson Cafeteria,... and he advised me and I quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are doing here."
After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the FBI
Mr. LIEBELER. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you on August 5, (1963)----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were suspicious of him on two different counts?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator working for the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de Brueys had said to you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. A year ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost a year prior to that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Mike Kilroy said:
Can you clarify? When you say it was "no mistake" - meaning he lied deliberately or he was correct? Not sure how that 'undercuts' Oswald. Definitely the CIA.
I'm just aghast at Helms, personally. If you read that meeting summary, he was up to his eyeballs in managing these guys. They somehow run across the alleged assassin a year later and Helms doesn't say a word about it. That's just highly suspicious to me and gets to the crux of CIA subterfuge around the assassination.
Mike,
A couple of examples:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/veciana-oswald.htm
“On March 2, 1976, Gaeton Fonzi interviewed Antonio Veciana in Miami. Gaeton Fonzi did not mention the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, although it was widely known he worked for the SSCIA subcommittee on the Kennedy assassination that was headed by Senator Richard Schweiker. Antonio Veciana told Gaeton Fonzi he was introduced to OSWALD by BISHOP, in Dallas in late August 1963 or early September 1963.
VERSION ONE
On March 2, 1976, Antonio Veciana told Gaeton Fonzi that "He says he remembers once having met LEE HARVEY OSWALD. He says he doesn't remember the way it says it happened in the magazine. He says he did meet LEE HARVEY OSWALD, but in different circumstances than what the magazine says. (How did you meet him? When?) BISHOP introduced him. (Where?) Dallas. (When?) Around 1962. (How did it come about?) He said when BISHOP came up to him once, he came up with OSWALD, but you know it was such an engagement like, it came up like, 'This is LEE HARVEY OSWALD.'
VERSION TWO
In 1976 Antonio Veciana stated:"I have been in Dallas many times, and remember a meeting of August 1963, perhaps the first days of September, I was there. At that time the U.S. Government had confined me to Miami Dade County. No matter, I traveled to other cities anyway, Dallas was one of them. In August 1963 I had a meeting in downtown Dallas with Mr. MAURICE BISHOP, a United States Intelligence Officer. I remember that LEE HARVEY OSWALD was present at that meeting.
Dan Hardaway reviews Veciana's book, “Trained to kill”
“When we get to the Phillips and Oswald in Dallas story, though, things get vague, very vague. For example, he never tells us why Phillips sent for him to come to Dallas in September of 1963. I would find it very hard to believe that he does not remember what that meeting was about. I would think it would be seared into his memory because of who he met and the events occurring just two months after the meeting. So, why didn’t he tell us in the book what the meeting was about.
Veciana reports that Phillips ditched Oswald so he and Veciana could talk in a coffee shop. I am sure Phillips didn’t call Veciana to Dallas because he missed him and wanted to know how his kids were doing. What did they discuss in that coffee shop? Why does Veciana not tell us what the assignment or operation was that Phillips had to see him about? “
Veciana's 1976 revelation to Fonzi didn't just slip out. It wasn't just a slip of the tongue. This alleged meeting occurred just prior to Oswald allegedly going to Mexico; supposedly trying to get to Cuba and/or Russia as a communist sympathizer. Veciana undercut both Oswald, and Phillips.
Steve Thomas
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3 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:
Thanks, Steve. Not sure if you've seen this summary of Helms' meeting the DRE leadership in November 1962:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18923#relPageId=1&tab=page
Highlights include:
- The meeting was held to get the DRE more firmly under the CIA’s control. Its leadership had been on TV citing their sources in Cuba who say the Russian missiles were not being removed following the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Yeah, the Cuban exiles were pushing the U.S. "DO something!"
The U.S. would have preferred to keep it quiet.
Larry Hancock would be a good person to address the question of palace intrigue among the Cuban groups - who's in and who's out. Who's got the backing of the U.S. government, and who doesn't. Who's going to be in charge once it's all over. Maybe if he sees this, he'll chime in.
I personally think that Veciana identifying Oswald as having met with his (Veciana's) case officer, Bishop or Phillips (or whatever he was calling himself that day) was no mistake. He not only undercut Oswald, but he undercut the CIA as well.
Steve Thomas
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Does anyone know when Oswald was first identified, or rumored to be a government informant?
And I'm not talking about just post-assassination, but pre-assassination as well.
And I'm not talking about just in government circles, but in cuban-exile circles as well.
For example, a ship called the Violin I is launched on a commando raid against Cuba in late March, 1963. Their launch pad was going to be the Bahamas. Their leader was a guy named Jerry Buchanan. When they got there, the authorities were waiting. Buchanan was interviewed by his brother, James Buchanan, a reporter for the Pompano Beach Sun Sentinel, "Buchanan (Jerry) said. "_____ went So the boat, where it been there since Saturday morning waiting for us to come in. They knew all about us. "The police came out of the building and said, 'Is your name Buchanan?' They placed both of us under detention.
The News-Herald from Mansfield, Ohio · April 3, 1963 Page 24
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/45297639/
Buchanan knew he's been set up.
Five days after the assassination, a man named Sanchez told James Buchanan that a man who used the name Oswald had tried to get aboard that boat and had been rebuffed by Jerry.
see CD 1020 p. 13. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11416#relPageId=15&tab=page
Oswald had been seen at one of the cuban-exile training camps in the New Orleans area. In July. That camp was raided by the FBI and shut down.
Was the name Oswald being circulated by the Cuban exiles as an informant for the government prior to JFK's assassination?
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Mike Kilroy said:
There's a myriad of reasons but just these basic facts are enough for me to require the agency to explain itself:
1) Video of Oswald showing his pro-Castro bona fides appears on national TV the night of the assassination, before he was even charged with the crime. That video WOULD NOT EXIST nor WOULD’VE MADE IT TO DC BEFORE JFK’S BODY without the CIA and its propaganda assets - the DRE and Ed Butler of INCA.
Mike,
I too read the CNN article that Jim Hargrove referenced, and I've been doing some thinking. Immediately after the assassination, the DRE jumped all over the fact that they knew Oswald, and I got to wondering why they would do that. At first glance, you would think that they would want to deny they knew anything about this presidential killer, let alone that they had had dealings with him.
But then I got to thinking, by jumping out ahead of the story, they tried to kill two birds with one stone:
1) They revealed that, yeah, we knew the guy, but we knew right off the bat that he was a no good rat bastard, Castro-loving, commie, and we sent him packing; and,
2) They undercut the CIA. I would be interested to know when the rumors of Oswald being a government informant first began to surface; not only post-assassination, but pre-assassination as well. I would like to know what rumors about Oswald were being circulated by the cuban-exile groups. I think I will start a separate thread on that question in the Forum
The CIA and the Cuban exile groups were not strictly working together. There was no love lost. As 1961 and 1962 wore on, the Cuban exile groups began to realize that the CIA was just stringing them along. The official policy of Jack and Bobby Kennedy was that, "Yeah, we support the Cuban exile cause, but we can't lend the legitimacy of the United States to their efforts by allowing them to launch their overthrow efforts from U.S. soil." "We'll support their raids on Cuba, as long as they are launched from somewhere else. So we'll set them up in Guatemala and Nicaragua."
The Cuban exiles, on the other hand, needed that legitimacy. They needed the world to know that their overthrow efforts had the full backing and support of the United States government.
You might want to read this April 12, 2001 article by Jefferson Morley in the Miami New Times Magazine.
"We worked with the CIA," recalls Salvat. "We never subordinated ourselves to them."
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/revelation-1963-6353139
Steve Thomas
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Is it possible that these photos, 510 and 512 are part of the reconstruction photos that were taken on November 25th?
See the DPD Archives, Box 11, Folder# 37 and 38.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box11.htm
I did not see the photographs of these shells listed among the scans provided in the DPD Archives in Boxes 11 and 12, but there are a bunch of photos and negatives that were not scanned and just listed as being taken of the TSBD.
See Box 12A Folder# 27.
If they were taken on the 25th, and were part of a "reconstruction", they'd be kind of useless.
Steve Thomas
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14 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:
Hi Steve:
These two exhibits were introduced during the March 25, 1964 testimony session of Luke Mooney - 3H286, 3H287.
Gary
Gary,
Thank you. That was the one guy I hadn't checked.
I can't tell if he actually watched the DPD photograph the shells in situ. He talks about being upstairs long enough to be present when the rifle is found.
Were the 510 and 512 photographs actually taken days later?
Mr. BALL - They were turned over to Captain Fritz?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. They were brass cartridges, brass shells.
Mr. BALL - Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.Mr. BALL - How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found the location of the three cartridges?
Mr. MOONEY - Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of course I left that particular area.Steve Thomas
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Today's Politico Magazine (3/25/18) ran an article on Michigan State University's connection to the CIA and the Vietnam War. In particular, it focused on the police training programs.
(I immediately thought of Captain Westbrook, but I have not searched to see if he had any connection to MSU).
The University That Launched a CIA Front Operation in Vietnam
I have not delved into this, I just brought it up to bring it to people's attention.
If you run Michigan State University through the Mary Ferrell Foundation search tool, you come up with some interesting results.
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, Tom Hume said:
I'll give it a go: The top photo is a close-up of Shell "A" from CE510, and the bottom photo is a close-up of Shell "A" from CE512. I used the CE510 and CE512 photo-versions that were posted on this thread. Looking closely, this version of CE510 appears to have a whole lot more pixels than its pixel-poor neighbor, CE512 (How come? Are there higher resolution photos out there for us to look at? Is there anything to be learned here?).
CE510 (shell "A" close-up)
CE512 (shell "A" close-up)
Jim D, you wrote that in his book, John Armstrong had some interesting things to say about CE510 and CE512. Anything worth sharing?
Steve Thomas asked, “The shells have been moved, haven’t they?”
I'll say that shell “A” appears to be in a different spot. And I wonder if there is something fishy about CE512. Notice that the black circles are perfect, and that before the perfect black circles were added to the photo, some lighter circles had been drawn in by hand. Notice the lighter hand-drawn circle around shell “A” in CE 512. If that thing that looks more like cigarette butt than a shell casing is the reason for that circle, it’s not in the middle of the circle where it should be, but on the edge. Who would circle something and not place the object of interest in the middle?
Tom,
Just out of curiosity, I went looking for when CE510 and 512 were introduced as evidence. Maybe I just missed it, but I couldn't find it in the WC testimonies of Sims, Boyd, Johnson, Montgomery, Studebaker, or Day. I wondered who put those circles on those pictures and when; because as you said, the dark circles in 512 are too perfect. They are done by a machine and not by hand.
When Day was questioned, he was given CE 716 to look at. Here's a comparison of 716 and 512. Notice the lighter pencil circles around the shells in 716 and then again in 512. Like you said, It looks like they are offset to me in 512.
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
No, Steve, the shells have not been moved. In the poor-quality photo we see in CE512, we can barely see two of the shells, and the thing you might be thinking is a "shell" (closest to the cameraman) in CE512 is actually not a shell. It's a piece of paper or debris of some kind.
Here's a higher-quality picture of the three bullet shells from the Dallas Municipal Archives....
9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:No, Steve, the shells have not been moved. In the poor-quality photo we see in CE512, we can barely see two of the shells, and the thing you might be thinking is a "shell" (closest to the cameraman) in CE512 is actually not a shell. It's a piece of paper or debris of some kind.
Here's a higher-quality picture of the three bullet shells from the Dallas Municipal Archives....
David,
Thank you, but to my untrained eye, this looks like a higher quality resolution of CE510, not of CE 512.
Steve Thomas
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49 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
Can anyone download CE 510 and CE 512?
John Armstrong says some interesting things about these two pics in his book.
The shells have been moved, haven't they?
Steve Thomas
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4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
When I re-read all this stuff last year, I made a list of all the unidentified officers observed in the building, as well as the names of officers who were in the building but never made a statement. There were something like 6 references to unnamed officers, and 5 named officers who never made a statement. In short, the assassin or assassins could have escaped without problem should they have been police officers, or disguised as police officers.
As far as Mooney, I'm pretty sure the men he saw were Inspector Sawyer and another unnamed DPD officer, who took the front elevator up to the fourth floor, ran to the back of the building, saw Baker and Truly as they came down on the east elevator, and then ran back down the stairs and out the front in order to close off the building.
Pat,
I don't know. I've re-read Sawyer's WC testimony several times now, and I don't see where he says he came back down using the stairs. Is that somewhere else?
Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
I'm confused. My wife says that's sometimes easily done. But this sounds impossible, the last sentence.
How could Fritz have "let" Day dust the live round for prints Before Ejecting It From The Rifle?
It can't be done. It IS impossible. McCloy wasn't that stupid, he let it slide. Another Warren Omission smooth over.
Ron,
That was why I included that reference.
Day's and Fritz's stories are inconsistent. Something's wrong.
Steve Thomas
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12 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Wouldn't it have been interesting to sit these two down in the same room and have them swap war stories?
Wonder how that would have turned out.
Steve Thomas
Mostly I was was thinking about the idea that you've got a guy or two groups of guys saying, "I was up on the grassy knoll behind the fence".
And one guys says, "I was there", and the other guys says, "No you weren't. I was."
"Were not". "Was so." "Were not." "Was so."
We can debate all we want, but it would have been interesting to sit them both down in the same room and have them look each other in the eye.
I wonder what would have come out of that.
As for myself, I don't believe Files for two reasons:
1) I worked in public service all my life and I learned not to trust somebody who talks too much and too fast. 99 times out of a hundred, they're trying to pull a fast one.
2) Both Lee Bowers and Ed Hoffman talk about seeing a couple of guys together up there. If Files says he was up there alone, I discount that.
Steve Thomas
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Wouldn't it have been interesting to sit these two down in the same room and have them swap war stories?
Wonder how that would have turned out.
Steve Thomas
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8 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:
Hi Steve:
Unfortunately Twyman, and many others, are just wrong on this point about the image in question showing a fully loaded 6.5mm WCC Carcano cartridge along the sixth floor southeast corner window wall, down in one of the spaces between the boards, circled as "A". If one looks at a decent copy of this photograph and enlarges this area it is clear that this is a spent cartridge case, not a loaded cartridge. I am attaching a link below; go to this image from the Texas Portal website, click on it and then use the "zoom" function to expand the image as large as you like; then look at cartridge "A".
Link: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49604/?q=Texas%20School%20Book%20Depository
FWIW
Gary
Gary,
Thanks. You're right.
That zoom feature is pretty neat, isn't it?
Steve Thomas
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34 minutes ago, Ian Lloyd said:
Yep - been knocking around for years...
What strikes me is that Mooney was looking for a gunman/gunmen in the building, these guys come running down the stairs yet he doesn't stop to ask them who they are, where they've been, what they've seen/found etc., etc...????...Great police work!!! :-(
Ian,
Thanks. I'll bet you're right about the WCC.
As far as Mooney goes, he doesn't seem to know who these guys are either, which would be strange if they were fellow Deputies.
Steve Thomas
When was Oswald first ID'd as a government informant?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
David,
On the contrary. I have come to believe that the name Oswald was well known in the Cuban exile community as somebody to stay away from. His name goes back as early as August in New Orleans, when he visited Bringuer and offered to "help"; and probably as early as late March/early April when an "Oswald" tried to board a ship in Miami bound for a commando raid. That person was so obnoxious that Jerry Buchanan had to punch him in the mouth and knock him down. (Does that "Oswald" behavior sound familiar?)
According to Buddy Walthers, Oswald was seen going in and out of that house on Harlendale in the months prior to November 22nd.
I will be on the lookout for references, not in the U.S. spy community, but in the Cuban exile community to an "Oswald".
Steve Thomas