Ian Lloyd

Kind of like someone saying, for example, that "common sense" prevails...??? Now, I wonder who that would be...????...

So you seem to accept the fact that Oswald (using his "Hidell" alias) did order the rifle. But you can't envision a situation where Oswald could have merely gone to the post office, handed the clerk the slip he found in his P.O. Box, and then have the rifle package handed to him by the clerk?? That scenario is played out in hundreds or thousands of post offices all over the USA every day. Plus, let me ask this simple, common-sense question..... Why would somebody order something by mail-order and have it shipped to their post office box (whether it be a rifle or any other item) and then never go to the post office to pick up the merchandise? Why would anybody do that, Bill? Ian: So, let's say he collected a long package from the PO sometime during the day whilst working at JCS - was anyone asked if they saw him carrying a long package into work on any day he worked there (similar to the question raised about him entering the TSBD carrying a long package on the 22nd November 1963)? Also, 3 little questions: 1. Why was the obvious discrepancy between the advertised rifle length and the length of CE139 never questioned (a response along the lines of "well, they had the rifle used by Oswald to assassinate the President so there was no need to question it." won't do)? Revisiting your question "Did Lee Harvey Oswald order the rifle?" , the answer must therefore be "No" since the rifle found does not match the rifle that was ordered - pretty fundamental really.2. When was the check cashed, according to the WC records? 3. Did the handwriting experts examine the original documents? You think a clerk should have instant recall regarding every package he/she gives out to every John Doe in Dallas---even after eight months have passed? Come on. ==================== RELATED CAT FIGHT.... JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID: Von Pein is the prime example of the Warren Commission Crazies or kamikazes. I mean, see there was never any evidence that Oswald ever picked up the handgun used to shoot Tippit at Railway Express. In fact, even more exculpatory, there was never any evidence that the FBI even went there. So how did the transaction happen? DAVID VON PEIN SAID: How about that for sterling logic and razor-sharp evaluation of the evidence against Oswald in the Tippit murder, folks? DiEugenio is much more concerned about the lack of a paper trail that would connect Lee Harvey Oswald to the Smith & Wesson revolver that killed Officer J.D. Tippit than he is about the PROVABLE FACT that Oswald had that very same gun ON HIM (as he was trying to shoot more policemen with it) when he was arrested inside the Texas Theater just a half-hour after Officer Tippit was gunned down. There are no words left for me to use to describe how utterly preposterous DiEugenio's thinking is regarding this matter concerning Oswald's revolver and the Railway Express. To DiEugenio, Oswald being caught red-handed with the murder weapon in his very own hands in the movie theater on 11/22/63 is of far less importance than being able to answer the following question --- When and where did Oswald first pick up the revolver after he purchased it by mail order in early 1963? More revolver chatter: jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-42.html

3 little questions: 1. Why was the obvious discrepancy between the advertised rifle length and the length of CE139 never questioned (a response along the lines of "well, they had the rifle used by Oswald to assassinate the President so there was no need to question it." won't do)? 2. When was the check cashed, according to the WC records? 3. Did the handwriting experts examine the original documents?

Thanks Robin. I have to say I can see a shadowy head behind Lovelady and someone standing to the left of that shadowy figure. Do you see anything or do I need glasses? Looks to me like Lovelady is right over to the left (from our POV) of the TSBD entrance, not in the middle? I guess he'd moved over to try to track the limo as it moved down Elm...strange if he has to step back and shield his eyes from the sun at this point but isn't in Altgens...

I could understand the lapel flip if the bullet made contact with it (in the correct location). From what I can see on the photographs of the jacket, the bullet hole is nowhere near the lapel. If I "flick" the inside of my jacket in the approximate position of the bullet hole, the lapel barely moves,and it certainly doesn't "flip" in any way, let alone to the extent apparently seen in the Z-film. I presume you have a formal physics qualification of some sort, based on your (apparently self-proclaiming) statements above "...if you are, you aren't qualified to talk about basic, fundamental physical law." and "The physics is simple."? Therefore, can you demonstrate the amount of energy expended from the bullet into the jacket as it strikes it, indicating the amount of movement expected to be seen from the jacket and, hence, the lapel please? I appreciate that you may not have the details of the materials and construction of JBC's jacket that you would require for such an exercise but I'll accept an approximation based on a similar jacket you may own or can access. I believe the relevant details regarding the bullet weight, speed etc. that you would require are available in the WC documents.

Oh dear. Same old, same old. Someone that doesn't understand things that Newton worked out centuries ago. It would take more than a stiff breeze to cause such a violent reaction. I'm also not at all surprised to learn that a police motorcycle rider almost lost his balance. He was riding a heavy motorcycle very slowly. Are you one of those people that believe the statement that Robert Groden made, that Kennedy's movement after the headshot was 'entirely consistent with a shot from the front'? If you are, you aren't qualified to talk about basic, fundamental physical law. Anyone who resorts to responding with acronyms like "LMAO" gets zero respect from me, I'm afraid. Paul. Paul, Looking at the photographs showing the location of the bullet hole in the jacket, it seems to be quite some way from the lapel. Just looking at the lapel on a suit jacket of mine (I'm sure not as expensive & tailored as JBC's), the lapel is relatively stiff since it is double layered and pressed and folded to ensure it remains flat against the jacket. As far as I am aware, there was no damage on the lapel itself on JBC's jacket. Taking the above into account, I would like to read your explanation of the physics behind the apparent lapel movement that is seen on the Z-film.

Was there a bullet hole in the lapel?

Didn't one of the police motorcycle riders say something about losing his balance and almost falling over when a gust caught him out?

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons: 1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO; 2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO; 3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right; 4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?; 5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she? Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked. I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything. --Tommy Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons: 1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO; 2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO; 3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right; 4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?; 5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she? Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

Here is the copy of the advertisement from American Rifleman furnished to the SS by the FBI: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=79&tab=page Very useful. I can't find the original FBI copy.

Classic Von Pein... Can you or anyone prove what we see printed as that order was what was actually on the microfilm - now that the cannister remains yet the film is gone? Do you understand that the only thing that relates THAT rifle to THAT order is Waldman's own pencil writing in of the VC # and Seriel #.? Kleins does not need to be part of the "plot" at all... they just needed to have given the FBI the evidence before it was authenticated. We also have the VP of the bank of Chicago stating that the MO deposited on this order would have been sent to and processed by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago... as we all know, there are no processing mark or stamps on the Money Order, only the stamp Waldman THINKS is the same as the one they use... It's close, but not the same stamp... and as we can see, this is a KLEINS stamp. The Banking processes were never performed on this piece of paper. Let's see what else Waldman has to say.... So basically, before we have any idea what is actually on this roll of film, the FBI has it in their possession. We do not know anything about the state of Klein's inventory of C20-T750's as of March 1963. There is no way to connect C2766 from Riva in Italy to this order. Feldsott already told us about C2766 from an order shipped to Kleins in June 1962, not Feb 1963. The microfilm with this and any other order form which can be used to compare SOP at this time is no longer in the Archives... the cannister is empty. As to Waldman being the "proper individual" from Kleins... Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W." Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1? Mr. WALDMAN. It is. Mr. BELIN. And that is who? Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper Westra nor Kasper were interviewed... the man who filled the order and his boss were not consulted... Waldman was. And Waldman does not know his own inventory as evidenced by this stated regarding a non-existent Model 91/38EFF Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different. We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962. Waldman testified on May 20, 1964. The microfilm in question had been in the possession of the FBI since the day they took it, Nov 23, 1963. Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number. Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is? Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope The TS rifle was a 36" scoped carbine The FC was not. C20-T750 had been advertised as a 36" carbine with a scope for $19.95 since March 1962. It was waht the Hidell Order refers to. Even the Secret Service told us the rifle found was a TS carbine. So the question remains. All the evidence points to the rifle ordered and shipped on the microfilm receipt as a 36" scoped carbine 91/38TS rifle. LNers like you claim that Kleins was shipping the larger rifle yet you provide nothing to support such a speculation. That a 40" FC rifle is found on the 6th floor does not equate to this having anything at all to do with that Hidell order unless you can show it was standard practice to replace one rifle with another... simply done too - just so us one other C20-T750 order and call it a day. But you can't give us anything but excuses for WHY we would need to do that in the first palce. Because, as BA posted, it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the order for C20-T750 was either the ONLY one where a different rifle was shipped, or was part of many 40" FC rifles shipped for that order number... That Kleins had been selling the C20-T750 since March 1962 and was on ad every month until Feb 1963... unchanged as to description for all those months - a 36" scoped TS carbine. Yet you are trying to get us to believe that not a single other C20-T750 was ordered during that entire year. Which would also be proven if we could see the other orders from that film or ANY of the Kleins film. The entire point von Pein is to see other orders with one of the other 99 seriel numbers on it. There are 100 rifles listed here... does the FBI show us that any one of these is a 40" FC rifle? Does Kleins offer any evidence related to these 99 OTHER rifles? Of course not because they like we know these are from the June 1962 shipment of 36" rifles We know that Riva removed the seriel number of all the rifles he worked on - except, says the FBI, this one batch... but they offer no proof of a single other rifle. At the end of the day von Pein, the evidence you and the WCR uses to implicate a man of murder is woefully inadequate and terribly inauthentic. We have breaks in the custody at an agency known for altering, creqating and destroying evidence when it suited them. (the entirety of the Mexico evidence was created with the help of an FBI asset named Ochoa) So it is really left up to you to connect the dots... and again - the evidence you choose to use falls terribly short and in reality shows the conspiracy of evidence thru the FBI that permeated this case... If the WCR/FBi could convict using real evidence that said what it intended we have to assume they would have. Instead we constantly see the FBI bending in every conceivable way to get the evidence to conform to the accusation and conclusions... while never offereing corroboration or authentication of said evidence. The man was dead - they just needed to make their case. The silence within the "investigation" of the assassination on the discrepancy between the rifle length as advertised and that found in the TSBD is deafening!!!... Mr Von Pein (and, probably, Mr Mack) will undoubtedly assure us that when Klein's exhausted their stock of advertised rifles, they just sent out whatever they happened to have in stock in the absence of that advertised and ordered, assuming that the customer will be happy enough (I've been here before!!) - as if we, duh, wouldn't have known that!?!?! Hmmmm... Well well well... Gary Mack has sent you a new personal conversation entitled "Six Things Made To Order For Lee Harvey Oswald". Gary Mack said: ====================================================================== Well, Ian, indeed the record indicates Klein's may have run out of 36" Carcanos and shipped "Hidell" the 40" model instead. Their monthly advertisements did change at the precise time "Hidell" placed the order. Here's what the ads show (as I wrote to Dave von Pein five years ago): https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/-T9y2K5oOq4/SMyT9S_onnEJ (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/-T9y2K5oOq4/SMyT9S_onnEJ) I'm not aware of any evidence or reason to think that Klein's, to save a sale, would not have done so. They may have enclosed a note explaining the change and offering to exchange the rifle and pay for it's return or issue a refund if "Hidell" preferred. Gary Mack Edit: Still doesn't explain why the question was never asked, especially if there was such a simple explanation...

CE541?

Classic Von Pein... Can you or anyone prove what we see printed as that order was what was actually on the microfilm - now that the cannister remains yet the film is gone? Do you understand that the only thing that relates THAT rifle to THAT order is Waldman's own pencil writing in of the VC # and Seriel #.? Kleins does not need to be part of the "plot" at all... they just needed to have given the FBI the evidence before it was authenticated. We also have the VP of the bank of Chicago stating that the MO deposited on this order would have been sent to and processed by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago... as we all know, there are no processing mark or stamps on the Money Order, only the stamp Waldman THINKS is the same as the one they use... It's close, but not the same stamp... and as we can see, this is a KLEINS stamp. The Banking processes were never performed on this piece of paper. Let's see what else Waldman has to say.... So basically, before we have any idea what is actually on this roll of film, the FBI has it in their possession. We do not know anything about the state of Klein's inventory of C20-T750's as of March 1963. There is no way to connect C2766 from Riva in Italy to this order. Feldsott already told us about C2766 from an order shipped to Kleins in June 1962, not Feb 1963. The microfilm with this and any other order form which can be used to compare SOP at this time is no longer in the Archives... the cannister is empty. As to Waldman being the "proper individual" from Kleins... Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W." Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1? Mr. WALDMAN. It is. Mr. BELIN. And that is who? Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper Westra nor Kasper were interviewed... the man who filled the order and his boss were not consulted... Waldman was. And Waldman does not know his own inventory as evidenced by this stated regarding a non-existent Model 91/38EFF Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different. We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962. Waldman testified on May 20, 1964. The microfilm in question had been in the possession of the FBI since the day they took it, Nov 23, 1963. Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number. Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is? Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope The TS rifle was a 36" scoped carbine The FC was not. C20-T750 had been advertised as a 36" carbine with a scope for $19.95 since March 1962. It was waht the Hidell Order refers to. Even the Secret Service told us the rifle found was a TS carbine. So the question remains. All the evidence points to the rifle ordered and shipped on the microfilm receipt as a 36" scoped carbine 91/38TS rifle. LNers like you claim that Kleins was shipping the larger rifle yet you provide nothing to support such a speculation. That a 40" FC rifle is found on the 6th floor does not equate to this having anything at all to do with that Hidell order unless you can show it was standard practice to replace one rifle with another... simply done too - just so us one other C20-T750 order and call it a day. But you can't give us anything but excuses for WHY we would need to do that in the first palce. Because, as BA posted, it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the order for C20-T750 was either the ONLY one where a different rifle was shipped, or was part of many 40" FC rifles shipped for that order number... That Kleins had been selling the C20-T750 since March 1962 and was on ad every month until Feb 1963... unchanged as to description for all those months - a 36" scoped TS carbine. Yet you are trying to get us to believe that not a single other C20-T750 was ordered during that entire year. Which would also be proven if we could see the other orders from that film or ANY of the Kleins film. The entire point von Pein is to see other orders with one of the other 99 seriel numbers on it. There are 100 rifles listed here... does the FBI show us that any one of these is a 40" FC rifle? Does Kleins offer any evidence related to these 99 OTHER rifles? Of course not because they like we know these are from the June 1962 shipment of 36" rifles We know that Riva removed the seriel number of all the rifles he worked on - except, says the FBI, this one batch... but they offer no proof of a single other rifle. At the end of the day von Pein, the evidence you and the WCR uses to implicate a man of murder is woefully inadequate and terribly inauthentic. We have breaks in the custody at an agency known for altering, creqating and destroying evidence when it suited them. (the entirety of the Mexico evidence was created with the help of an FBI asset named Ochoa) So it is really left up to you to connect the dots... and again - the evidence you choose to use falls terribly short and in reality shows the conspiracy of evidence thru the FBI that permeated this case... If the WCR/FBi could convict using real evidence that said what it intended we have to assume they would have. Instead we constantly see the FBI bending in every conceivable way to get the evidence to conform to the accusation and conclusions... while never offereing corroboration or authentication of said evidence. The man was dead - they just needed to make their case. The silence within the "investigation" of the assassination on the discrepancy between the rifle length as advertised and that found in the TSBD is deafening!!!... Mr Von Pein (and, probably, Mr Mack) will undoubtedly assure us that when Klein's exhausted their stock of advertised rifles, they just sent out whatever they happened to have in stock in the absence of that advertised and ordered, assuming that the customer will be happy enough (I've been here before!!) - as if we, duh, wouldn't have known that!?!?! Hmmmm...

Deleted - replied to incorrect post.

Thanks Richard, I was working from memory then.

Didn't the WC or HSCA photographic panel determine that what looks like Lovelady's arm was actually the black man's (Roy Lewis?) arm as he was waving?

Well, they may have heard some kind of a sound that appeared to come from behind them somewhere but they're not sure where - the natural reaction, IMO, is that you look round and scan the throng of people looking for someone (or something) that may have made the noise...? I'm not sure that my instinctive reaction would be turn round and look up at the sky or high up in a building when there's a throng or people right behind me. I guess this is the situation we find ourselves in; we have the preconception that they should be looking upwards since that is where we have been told for the last 51 years that the sound they are reacting to is a gunshot from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Looking back at the GIFs in post #1903, there's a guy standing in the front row of the crowd on the left (as you view) who has also turned right round to look behind him in the direction of the TSBD entrance...

When did he first declare himself to be a patsy and when was he confronted with the MC as 'evidence' that he'd assassinated JFK?

LHO declares himself to be a 'patsy' - how did he know?

But he seems to be standing quite a way back in the doorway which would limit the field of view? In that position, depending upon the speed the motorcade was travelling, PM would have a very limited opportunity to get more than one decent photograph? If it was me, I'd want to be in a position whereby I could take quite a few photographs with the expectation that at least 1 or 2 may not be much good (especially standing back in those shadows and trying to photograph a scene out of the shadows in bright sunlight).

If PM is holding a camera, it doesn't appear to be the most advantageous position to get a decent photograph of the president, seems to me about all he'd end up getting is a good pic of the backs of the peoples' heads in front of him...this isn't to say that I don't think he's holding a camera, the comparisons above are compelling in that respect.

Could the guy standing in the background under the tree be the person shown as figure 'E' in the TSBD doorway?

Thanks all - So, it certainly looks like it's Shelley. In which case I also doubt very much that he is the same person as the person shown as figure 'E' in the photograph shown in post 1831. Also extremely unlikely to be PM.