Pamela Brown

is that shorthand for a compromised crime scene? Definitely. The SS had over 12 hours to sanitize the limo before turning it over to the FBI at 1 a.m. 11.23.63. Who knows what had taken place by that time? Who knows what evidence was removed or added? The SS took no notes, took no photos until late Sat afternoon, and drew no diagrams, so we have no record of the condition of the limo between the time of the assassination and the time of the FBI exam. Of course, this fact didn't bother anyone in the government. Even Robert Frazier, who was in charge of the FBI exam, had no problem accepting the state the limo was in. Of course, at that time, he was not given any information either. He may have been aware that bullet fragments had been 'removed' by the SS and taken to the FBI lab around 10 p.m., along with a piece of skull. But it was bare pickens by the time Frazier and his crew got to the limo -- they were left with the tiny slivers of bullet found on the floor, and the smear of residue on the windshield.

This is the corrected version of the show, at least in one respect. The narrative now allows that the SS photos were taken 'the next day' instead of 'at 1 a.m.'. However, the false conclusion is the same.

The DC made a correction in the show that I requested and that was, in fact, the reason for this thread. The corrected show aired in December and last night. The SS photos CE 352-353 were taken late Saturday afternoon 11.23.63. The narrative is now corrected (from saying they had been taken at 1 a.m.) to say that they were taken the next day. Interestingly, it also says that the blood spatter is hard to see. That is an understatement. The limo had undergone two or three informal exams by the SS, a formal forensic exam by the FBI during which the back seat was taken out, and much manhandling of the limo had occurred. The greater flaw in the show in this regard, however, for which no change was made, is that they use these photos to try to get a witness to corroborate what he saw. This is specious to begin with, because nobody really had a chance to look inside the limo after the assassination long enough to make any assessment. The top was put up quickly upon the arrival at Parkland Hospital. Next, the car was swabbed out to some extent while at PH. The most benign reason for the bucket and cloth that are visible in a couple of photos of the limo at PH is that the areas affected by putting up the roof were washed. Who knows what changes were made because of that cleaning? So, the fragile thesis of this part of the show fails to demonstrate much of anything to anyone except perhaps the very, very naive. Oh, and the WC apologists, of course. They love this stuff.

No, Apparently Von Pein is not his real name and he's so afraid of the truth he won't post a picture of himself, so he's disqualified on two points. He's concerned about his "privacy"? He calls Simkin a crackpot and me a flying monkey but doesn't have the balls to join the debate? Says he's from Indiana? And, Where exactly did he go to school with Gus Russo? Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk From: slats <o...@yahoo.com> Date: 31 Jan 2009 00:51:36 -0500 Local: Sat, Jan 31 2009 12:51 am Subject: Re: Pam & friends gossip about me & DVP Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author David Von Pein <davevonp<A href="http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?_done=/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/ecfe599fc1affbb1/53da767d334d2070&msg=912fbc1f4e9aa1f7" target=_parent>...@aol.com> wrote in news:b2dc0111-1b85-4de3-bad2- df9a3b1d5...@q30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com: > That other Education Forum thread was started by Tom "I Can't Say It > Here At aaj Because The Post Will Certainly Be Rejected If I Call Him > This Name" Purvis back in September '08. Crackpot Simkin and his flying monkies really do give Nixon a run for his money in the paranoia department. During my brief stay there, the locals were *obsessed* with my listed occupation, demanding to know more about my work. More than a few suggested that I might be a government "plant." Thank God I didn't submit my real photo (they had no right to that anyway; that goes double for my real name). The vast majority of them are unhinged, Bush-hating leftists who bewailed things like FISA and the Patriot Act to no end, yet didn't think twice about compromising MY privacy. A pox on all of them. xxxx http://www.davidvonpein.blogspot.com/ "DVP" is just chock full of excuses for not providing any information that can be verified. There seems to be an agenda. Unfortunate, as he appears to have a bit of a following who might appreciate more concrete interactions with him, such as talking by phone or even actually meeting in person. However, this is not likely to happen as he is too busy trying to stay on the tightrope he has created.

He said he didn't have a photo to post as an avatar when he was briefly a member. Now somebody on aaj is saying the Ed Forum is not accepting new members? I feel sure John Simkin would find a way for "DVP" to post if he were to pony up bio info and photo; especially since it was John who initiated this thread.

Reitzes relentlessly savaged Martin Shackelford for years on alt.assassination.jfk over the JV Baker fiasco. It was way over the top in terms of vicious disrespect, no matter how wrong Martin was about the ridiculous Ms. Baker. Maybe you missed it. Reitzes loves to dish it out -- but he can't take the heat while defending his LN nonsense. Reitzes anti-Judyth and anti-Martin propaganda pages are full of libel. He has the nerve to ask for donations to support his hosting them. That speaks volumes. He doesn't have the guts to post here, but instead drags links over to aaj where he can say anything he wants while those who oppose him are censored. That is the earmark of a bully -- only playing on a slanted field.

The question has been raised whether "DVP" is a persona or an actual person. Nobody has met this guy. He refuses to post a photo. He has no background. Equally curious, he has not jumped up to respond to the question on aaj in a forthcoming manner; in fact, he ridicules my request for documentation, the same sort of information that we provide here in our bio and that I have provided at my websites for over 10 years. If this does not cause you to ask questions, why bother to research at all? Why not just accept as 'fact' everything that anybody says to you?

Has anyone met DVP? Has anyone met Reitzes? Is the question of whether he is an actual person or a persona the reason the question is being asked here?

I would not want to have been W, sitting just below Obama's elbow, when that speech was given. Obama could not have been tougher on the failed policies of W's administration in regards to being able to lead without using torture, and our country being ready to lead 'again'. The criticisms were well-deserved. The icing on the cake was the Obamas and Bidens' walking W and Laura out to the waiting chopper in a never-before-done gesture of graciousness, just to say "Buh-bye". Wonderful.

Why doesn't the researcher go to alt.assassination.jfk and ask him directly?

Kathy Kelly, a co-coordinator of Voices for Creative Nonviolence, is writing from Arish, a town near the Rafah border between Egypt and Gaza. Bill Quigley, a human rights lawyer and law professor at Loyola New Orleans and Audrey Stewart are also in Egypt and contributed to this article. Kathy Kelly's email is kathy@vcnv.org ---------- Tunnel Vision By Kathy Kelly January 10, 2009 Arish, Egypt--As I write, we can hear the dull thud of explosions in the distance. Israeli airstrikes continue to blast targets in southern Gaza. Merciless bombing of the small Gaza Strip continues into a third week. I heard some people here in Egypt wonder if the Israeli Air Force must be running out of places and people to target. But perhaps the surveillance drones we heard and saw flying over the Rafah border crossing today hunted down more spots on which bombers could fix their cross-hairs. Perhaps they spotted underground tunnels. The Israeli government has, reportedly, already destroyed 80% of the tunnels that connect Gaza with the outside world. It's common knowledge that a vast network of tunnels, some say as many as 1700, were constructed, many from outside Gaza's territorial borders, leading into the Territory. Israel claims the tunnels are legitimate targets because the Hamas government can use them to import weapons. But the buildup of the tunnel industry was fueled by desperation for needed goods, within Gaza, a desperation caused by Israel's decision, over the past 16 months, to tighten the thumbscrews of its blockade on Gaza. If the blockade continues, and if the tunnels are completely destroyed, besieged Gazans will be cut off from secure supplies of food, medicine and fuel, yet another terrifying prospect for people who are desperate to protect their children from any greater harm. Supposedly concerned for Israeli security, the United States supports the Israeli government's objective of eliminating Hamas's capacity to fire primitive rockets into Israel. The extensive tunnel industry may be used for weapons transport. I believe it's wrong to transport weapons, and it's wrong to develop, store, sell or use them. Distant thuds reinforce this belief, but if the U.S. and Israel believe importation of weapons via underground tunnels is wrongful, then the U.S. transfer of sophisticated weaponry to Israel must, seen in perspective, be abominable, given the slaughter Israel has inflicted on Gazan civilians since the airstrikes began on December 27th. The taxpayers of the U.S. provided Israel with F16 fighter jets and missiles to carry out these attacks. From 2001 – 2006, the United States transferred to Israel more than $200 million worth of spare parts to fly its fleet of F16s. Last year, the United States signed a $1.3 billion contract with Raytheon to transfer to Israel thousands of TOW, Hellfire, and "bunker buster" missiles. In July 2008, the United States gave Israel 186 million gallons of JP-8 aviation jet fuel. U.S. donations of jet fuel enable Israel to fire missiles into Gazan homes, streets, schools and hospitals. Meanwhile, ambulances drivers in Gaza, also directly targeted, don't have enough diesel fuel to bring injured and wounded people to the Rafah border crossing, where patients might be allowed to enter Egypt for critically needed care. Within Gaza, even before December 27th, civilians lacked essential fuels to power the main power plant, which operated at about 2/3 capacity. Now, it's inoperative. When trucks don't have fuel, this means that rubbish can't be collected. Hundreds of tons of rubbish went uncollected in Gaza because of the blockade. 77,000 cubic meters of raw and partially treated sewage were dumped into the sea. Farmers couldn't operate 70% of their agricultural wells. Power cuts affected hospitals, water pumps, sewage treatment plants, bakeries and other facilities dependent on back-up diesel generators. Now Gazans not only face the consequences of a destroyed health care system and rising sickness due to water-borne diseases, they also face the reality that Hamas could be forced to sign a cease-fire that doesn't allow for opening the Rafah border and which insists that Egypt assume responsibility to prevent usage of underground tunnels. In exchange for relief from cowering under bombs fired by sophisticated weapon systems, Gazans would be required to endure slow motion death through systematic cutoffs of their access to food, medicine, and potable water. This is why it is so important for people all over the world to insist that Israel not only stop attacking Gaza, but also end the brutal and lethally punitive blockade imposed on Gaza. Here in Egypt, the government has stated that it will undertake responsibility to be an effective partner in negotiating a cease-fire. Israelis expect Egyptians to stop the tunnel industry. Egypt would be responsible to assure that no one enters a tunnel, builds a tunnel, or is an accomplice to maintaining a tunnel. Already, any Egyptian caught inside a tunnel faces 15 years in prison. How much better for all concerned if the cease-fire negotiations asked the Egyptians to maintain an open border with Gaza, to lift the punitive blockade, and to assist in the immediate and ongoing transport of goods and services that could help Gaza rebuild and assume responsibility, above-ground, for maintaining its citizenry and its sovereignty. Egypt, the second largest recipient of military aid from the U.S., will be encouraged to use threat and force to curtail the tunnels, supposedly in the name of insuring security for Israel. But who will challenge the obscenely bloated so-called "defense industry" that allows elite gangs, some comfortably occupying the board rooms of major corporations, to supply a repressive, immoral and illegal occupation force with the disproportionate capacity to kill, using conventional weapons against civilian people who have no means to escape? U.S. support for hard-line, extremist Israeli government policies again represents tunnel vision by choice. U.S. foreign policy makers can begin a cure for this dangerously impaired vision by recognizing the basic human rights of all Palestinian people, and at this crucial moment by caring for the survival and dignity of Gazan people, especially those for whom meeting basic needs depends on what might come through a tunnel. ---------- --- Voices for Creative Nonviolence 1249 W Argyle Street #2, Chicago, IL 60640 Phone: (773) 878-3815 E-mail: info@vcnv.org web: www.vcnv.org To unsubscribe from this list, send an email with any subject or body from the subscribed address to vcnv-newsletter-off@list.voicesforcreativenonviolence.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM

Israel has shown by its current demonizing of Gaza and incursion, on top of its ongoing occupation, that it is incapable of governing the Palestinian people. It should not be allowed to have any power over them at all. They are creating their own shoah, and their arrogance does not even allow them to acknowledge it. I recently wrote to the United Nations in hopes that someone there can provide sanity to this situation: "Dear respected Sir or Madam: It seems to me that the problems in the Holy Land cannot be solved by Israel, and therefore, need to be addressed by the UN, which granted Israel its charter. Initially and ideally, both the Jewish state and Palestinian state should have been created at the same time. Ideally, too, neither of them should have been allowed to have arms -- that could have been a condition of their grant. Because those things did not happen, we have today an almost impossible situation. It is time to go back to the drawing boards. Protection for these two states could come from the UN through the countries that protect their interests anyhow, such as the US and Russia in the Security Council. The major powers have a stake in the protection of the Holy Land, and their clout and diplomatic channels could provide for protection for both states. Israel has shown by its recent actions in Gaza that it is unable to deal with the situation their occupation has created. Nothing more can be gained by allowing them to have any say over the occupied territories. Sincerely, Pamela Brown Minneapolis, MN USA" Now they have barred most newspeople from Gaza and those few who are allowed to be their have a gag order not to talk about much of what is happening. How much worse can it get? They are currently defying the UN order for ceasefire as well. This is illegal and immoral. Those who made sacrifices on behalf of the Jewish people during WWII cannot help but feel a sense of betrayal, as those they fought to save and their descendants have become heartless bullies in the Holy Land.

The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald set off signals from Minsk to Mexico City. Everywhere the FBI turned they were confronted of evidence of complicity, as Lee had been involved with the FBI, and conspiracy, as false Oswalds emerged in Dallas and in Mexico City. While Lee was alive there was a chance that all of this might have been sorted out in a court of law; that he was murdered and not allowed to live to stand trial, and that the narrow FBI Summary Report and WCR followed give clear indication that the govt was terrified of what they would find if they followed the leads LHO presented to them.

Even Marina could not connect LHO to the M/C after the return to Dallas. There is no way of knowing that Lee ever had anything to do with it; or, in fact, knew just where it was in the garage.

More fanmail: Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:09 PM You are right to start a thread about him except I see others object to slander. Its not slander when its true. They don't see the big picture that it's not that we disagree about evidence etc. Mack and the Sick Floor are deeper Deception. He represents all that is wrong with American values. Why should we expect more? Mack speaks from the building where Lee Oswald worked, which the govt touts as the primary crime scene (which it is not; the limousine is). We have been goaded on high for all this time by those touting the myth of the WCR. Isn't is only fitting that this deception comes from the TSBD?

I do agree with you, Tom, that the WCR has created nothing but confusion. It is a myth, built on layers of outright lies, rumor, innuendo and legalese, strung together to attempt to make something cohesive. To get back to basics, the WCR didn't even agree with the FBI Summary Report, the review of which was its ostensible purpose. Rather than acknowledging there were conflicts, they simply suppressed the FBI report and reworked the wording until they got what they thought they wanted. But, as we have seen repeatedly through the years, whenever anyone attempts to *prove* the WCR they end up falling flat on their faces. A myth cannot be *proved*. It can only be hyped and force-fed to the public.

When someone repeatedly acts as a sheep in wolves clothing it is helpful to define that, so that others don't have to make the same mistakes, re-invent the wheel, etc, if they choose. If they wish to be schmoozed and flattered and deluded, that is also their choice.

I just looked at the Moorman photo and Kellerman is not looking at Moorman. And if not at 315, then at what frame? He is looking toward Moorman, perhaps at Greer; certainly not toward Zapruder.

Good point. In addition, if LHO had any knowledge even that shots had come from the TSBD it is unlikely he would have bothered to stop for a bottle of pop in the first place. That he did shows his lack of awareness of the events that had just taken place.

HSCA operated under the false axiom that the WCR was 'correct'. Therefore, you cannot trust any of its information to be true. Their determination seems to be an attempt to reconcile the differences between the Z312 position and that of the WCR. Your thought that Moorman equals Z-315 is incorrect also. Kellerman is facing Moorman in the shot, and facing Zapruder at Z315.

As Chief Curry says, you would think that from a common sense blood splatter analysis, you would think that the head shot originated from the front. I think the Discovery Channell will repeat the program tomorrow - Dec 1. BK Wonder if they will have edited out any of the major gaffes, such as the incorrect position of JFK and Jackie at what they claim Z312 would be, plus falsely claiming the SS photos were taken at 1 a.m. 11.22.63, or disclosing that the M/C bullets did not fragment. But wait, they can't edit out the shots from the SN that blow away the top of the dummy's skull, which contradicts existing medical evidence-- they would have no show left.

Pam, Dankbaar didn't say Duke posted at McAdams, only that his article is posted there. The ED forum is listed there as well. Denis. If the article is posted there, Duke must have given it to McAdams. If so, it would seem McAdams would have been showing his oh-so-helpful side to Duke to get him to do so. I think of Duke's articles in a much higher light than I do anything McAdams has at his site. Pam, why must Duke "have given it to McAdams"? Copyright © 1992 by M. Duke Lane [This text may be reproduced in any form provided only that it is not sold or published in any fee- or subscription-based publication.] I really dont think there is any reason to doubt Duke's loyalties here. Its just Dankbaar besmirching yet another good researcher who dares to disagree with him. By the way, SOME of the article's at McAdams are good stuff...dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Denis. I disagree. I think that anyone who is not a blind LNT who chooses to allow an article to be published at McAdams site leaves themselves open to scrutiny as to what they thought doing so would accomplish. Surely they have read McAdams pages and realize that they are disinformation at some times to the point of slander. Why would anyone who is able to think critically want to be aligned with that? They must also realize how vicious McAdams is to CTs, and what a slanted field he has created at alt.assassination.jfk with the apologist mods, not to mention his grunions such as ex-mod Barb Junkaarinen and Dave Reitzes who attempt to block research and target posters. You seem to know a great deal about alt.assassination.jfk dont you Pam...hmm bit suspicious that!! LOL C,mon girl relax, LN are a bit like ghosts, they can only hurt you if you belive in them. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand. Don't go up to the front lines and by all means don't bump into anyone involved in the ongoing coverup. But then that means you can't take any risks either. Don't work to bring forward any controversial witnesses, and don't push the envelope. Forget that there is more to this than simple research. And then don't be surprised when the next offering re-touting the WCR is shoved down your throat yet again. Just yawn and go back to your comic books.

Gary Mack knows enough to be dangerous. He knows what to hide and what to exploit. However, he seems to have too many agendas to be able to be consistent. He has no qualms about misusing evidence to prove a false point, as in the case of the SS color limo photos, which he falsely claimed were taken at 1 a.m. 11.23.63 during the FBI forensic exam of the limo when he knows perfectly well they were not taken until late the following afternoon. His assertions cannot be trusted if you are interested in knowing what really happened.

Pam, Dankbaar didn't say Duke posted at McAdams, only that his article is posted there. The ED forum is listed there as well. Denis. If the article is posted there, Duke must have given it to McAdams. If so, it would seem McAdams would have been showing his oh-so-helpful side to Duke to get him to do so. I think of Duke's articles in a much higher light than I do anything McAdams has at his site. Pam, why must Duke "have given it to McAdams"? Copyright © 1992 by M. Duke Lane [This text may be reproduced in any form provided only that it is not sold or published in any fee- or subscription-based publication.] I really dont think there is any reason to doubt Duke's loyalties here. Its just Dankbaar besmirching yet another good researcher who dares to disagree with him. By the way, SOME of the article's at McAdams are good stuff...dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Denis. I disagree. I think that anyone who is not a blind LNT who chooses to allow an article to be published at McAdams site leaves themselves open to scrutiny as to what they thought doing so would accomplish. Surely they have read McAdams pages and realize that they are disinformation at some times to the point of slander. Why would anyone who is able to think critically want to be aligned with that? They must also realize how vicious McAdams is to CTs, and what a slanted field he has created at alt.assassination.jfk with the apologist mods, not to mention his grunions such as ex-mod Barb Junkaarinen and Dave Reitzes who attempt to block research and target posters.

Pam, Dankbaar didn't say Duke posted at McAdams, only that his article is posted there. The ED forum is listed there as well. Denis. If the article is posted there, Duke must have given it to McAdams. If so, it would seem McAdams would have been showing his oh-so-helpful side to Duke to get him to do so. I think of Duke's articles in a much higher light than I do anything McAdams has at his site.