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Denny Zartman

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  1. Denny Zartman
    Fred, I am really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but how do you expect anyone to take you seriously on the topic of the JFK assassination when you don't even know the contents of your own book?
  2. Denny Zartman
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm I haven't seen in any of Roy Truly's or William Shelley's testimony to the Warren Commission any mention of a roll call being taken. A source cited in one of your links implies that it was the police taking the roll call. Is there WC testimony of a police officer that says they took a roll call of employees that day?
  3. Denny Zartman
    Hi Fred, In Location 533 of your book you write regarding Lee Harvey Oswald and the Texas School Book Depository: From what I can see, this assertion seems to be false. Charles Givens was also not present, and possibly another person as well. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/givens1.htm http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sawyer_j.htm Now... ...at this point I imagine that one might begin to argue "The reason Roy Truly didn't retrieve Charles Givens' address and report him as missing the way he did for Oswald was because Truly saw Givens walking away from the building just before the assassination, and Truly knew that the gunfire directed toward Kennedy's limousine came from the sixth floor of the school book depository." Truly was across the street just north of the Vice Presidential limo and south of the TSBD, and this is how he testified about what he believed were the source of the shots: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm There are some things that seem odd to me. Truly doesn't know the exact number of his warehouse employees. We're not even paying attention to the dozens of other employees that were working inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963. How many of them were absent? How many of them were outside to watch the motorcade and then not allowed inside the TSBD afterward by police, as per Charles Givens' statement quoted above? Truly says "one or two" other warehouse employees could be missing along with Oswald, Givens "possibly" among them. Yet the only employee that Truly saw fit to get the address of and report to authorities was Oswald, a man that Truly KNEW was inside the TSBD minutes after the shooting that Truly believed came from WEST of the TSBD. Something doesn't add up. Do you have any evidence you can cite for your statement that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only warehouseman missing from the TSBD after the assassination?
  4. Denny Zartman
    Hi Fred, I echo Andrej's comments. Welcome to the forum and congratulations on writing your book. I can see you put in quite a bit of effort into it. I found it interesting that you cited Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" as the book that convinced you there was no conspiracy, while it was that same book that first convinced me that there was. I read it last night, and I'm looking forward to discussing it with you if I may. I'll try to bring up my questions and comments in separate posts instead of bunching them all together in one big post and risk things getting lost. I hope we can have a good conversation. Location 872 and 891 - In your book you write this regarding David Ferrie: In Joan Mellen's 2005 "A Farewell To Justice" Pgs 106-107: Questions 1. Why didn't you mention the two suicide notes found at David Ferrie's death scene in your book? 2. What do you think of the claims in the last paragraph quoted above, that Ferrie's doctor Martin Palmer says that Ferrie's brain case wasn't opened at his autopsy?
  5. Denny Zartman
    Not at all. I just said I'm willing to read this author's book. I just finished reading it about ten minutes ago, and am going to jot down a few notes and think about it a little bit before I post more.
  6. Denny Zartman
    I've downloaded the sample and am considering buying your book and reviewing it.
  7. Denny Zartman
    Hi Joe, My own quick accounting of what I know about the assassination seems to indicate eight shots, and possibly more if you believe that JFK's head wound was caused by two bullets striking almost simultaneously. Misses: 1. Limo windshield trim 2. Grassy turf 3. Street pavement 4. Curb near James Tague Hits: 5. Connally 6. JFK's back 7. Front of JFK's throat 8. JFK's head
  8. Denny Zartman
    Hi, I started re-reading Mark Lane's "Plausible Denial" and "Last Word" yesterday. To my knowledge, I'm currently lacking any books specific to E Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, and Marita Lorenz, but have found some articles online that I plan to print and study in the next few days. I want to order and read the book by Hunt's son. I've heard some of their stories before but am going back over everything again and wanted to give Hunt further consideration. When I first read "Plausible Denial" and "Last Word", I don't think I was aware of Hunt's alleged confession. Now that I am, I'm going to go back and reconsider the story and these individuals carefully. So, before I start digging in, I was curious about everyone's opinion on E Howard Hunt and his possible involvement. I seem to remember H. R. Haldeman saying that Nixon's reference to any possible investigation of Hunt was that it (a close governmental investigation of Hunt) could open up the "whole Bay of Pigs thing", which in Haldeman's opinion was a veiled reference to the JFK assassination. Does information from the Liberty Lobby lawsuit line up with Hunt's confessions, or is there conflicting information that makes Hunt's confessions suspect? Any casual insight, or recommendations for further reading is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
  9. Denny Zartman
    I apologize for intruding, since I have nothing to contribute to the conversation, but I wanted to say that this thread makes for absolutely fascinating reading, and I think it's cool to be on a forum with Mr. Lifton. Thanks for posting so much, here, Mr. Lifton, and I look forward to your new book. Your dedication to research is astounding and inspiring.
  10. Denny Zartman
    This is a fascinating discussion. I wish I had more to contribute, but I appreciate everyone's posts. I can't argue with the logic that an assassin dressed as a police officer is a perfect disguise for a public, broad daylight escape. It seems that few people, bystanders or police, would question why a police officer would be there on the scene. We know from testimony and films that policemen went rushing to the grassy knoll. Hell, a policeman/assassin could literally take any accomplices by the arm and tell fellow officers that he was putting them "under arrest" when he was actually helping them get away. I genuinely don't know how to evaluate the credibility of Gordon Arnold and Beverly Oliver. I tend to set them aside when going over witness testimony. But, setting those two and everything else aside, I still can't get away from two seemingly inarguable facts: 1. Roscoe White, with no prior or post law enforcement experience, joined the force less than two months before the assassination - and a week before Oswald got his job at the TSBD. 2. Roscoe White, even though a rookie that hadn't attended the police academy, had a uniform and was in a position to handle critical evidence in the JFK assassination. In my opinion, fact #1 is strong circumstantial evidence that both White and Oswald were placed in their positions by the same larger force. And in the case of #2, the value of a man on the inside of the police department evidence room would seem to be obvious value to conspirators.
  11. Denny Zartman
    You're very welcome, Mervyn. I'm glad I could be of help. Best of luck on your research, and welcome to the forum.
  12. Denny Zartman
    HI Gene, I think what you brought up in your first paragraph is one of the biggest red flags for me. I remember back when I first started thinking seriously about this case and considering the LN argument that LHO was just a guy who just happened to be working at a tall building that just happened to overlook the motorcade and he just happened to seize an opportunity to get his name in the history books. I thought to myself "if Oswald had been working at the TSBD for a couple of years, or even from since before JFK was president, then I would have an easier time believing that he just got a lucky opportunity." I do some research and find out that Oswald started work there October 16, a month and a week before the assassination. Roscoe White starts working for the Dallas Police Department on October 7, 1963, less than ten days before LHO gets his job at the TSBD, and both of these events happen less than two months before JFK's visit to Dallas. To me, this alone is very suspicious. When I add just these few facts together: Roscoe White's wife had a professional connection to Jack Ruby Roscoe White had a military connection to Lee Harvey Oswald Roscoe White joined the DPD less than two months before the assassination, was in possession of a police uniform, and on Nov. 22 was in a position to handle assassination evidence Roscoe White's family had possession of an alternate backyard photograph In my opinion, I have a difficult time swallowing those as all being coincidences. Roscoe White actually tendered his resignation letter exactly two years to the day after he joined the police department. Not proof of anything, of course. Just another wild coincidence, I'm sure. But, to me, tendering his resignation precisely two years after joining could be considered consistent with Roscoe White doing the absolute required minimum that was asked of him. And, as you pointed out, apparently White had no law enforcement background prior to his stint with the DPD, nor did he continue a career in law enforcement after said stint. Again, that's not proof of anything, of course, but something that might be noted. He was not a career policeman. The White family having a connection to New Orleans is another wild coincidence, I'm sure. And this is all before considering any of Geneva's statements, the alleged diary, the alleged CIA cables, or Roscoe White himself reportedly implying that his own soon-to-be fatal injury was not an accident. According to Joseph McBride's "Into The Nightmare" pg 591, it seems that J. D. Luckie, apparently an investigator for a Texas district attorney reports that the FBI saw the alleged Roscoe White diary before its disappearance. Based on this, I assume that the alleged diary did in fact exist. (Not saying it was genuine.) I believe the common-sense question then becomes: if this were a hoax, why would Ricky and Geneva either lose the diary or intentionally dispose of it before making their story public? I find that difficult to understand. However, if the diary were genuine, I very could easily understand why the FBI would want to take it and keep it from further view. I sure wish Mike Robinson hadn't undergone hypnosis. I wonder what parts of the story he recollected while under hypnosis, and how much of it he remembered prior to the hypnosis session.
  13. Denny Zartman
    Thanks for the tip on the book, I will do my best to get a copy sometime soon. If I remember correctly, the film "Executive Action" suggests that same scenario, and someone in the know (I wish I could remember who right now) apparently said that scenario was quite close to the truth. The two uncoordinated teams appears to make sense. It seems considerable effort was put in to make Oswald look like he led to a larger Cuban and/or Russian plot and could easily had been a pretext for war. Yet that same threat of WW3 is what Johnson used to twist arms and get people to go along with the Lone Nut story. It's certainly something to think about.
  14. Denny Zartman
    Here it is as a Kindle ebook: https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Assassination-Chronology-David-Wood-ebook/dp/B005QOUV36 PDFs: https://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono1.pdf https://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf
  15. Denny Zartman
    I've read and heard a lot of theories, but I've never heard this one. I'd be more inclined to believe Umbrella Man was a shooter than Moorman and Hill (or people disguised as Moorman and Hill). Does that mean the real Moorman and Hill were just actresses, in this theory?
  16. Denny Zartman
    Hi Mervyn, Does Ira David Wood's timeline not qualify?
  17. Denny Zartman
    Thanks, Joe, very interesting. I will have to re-watch that segment again. I first saw it years ago when I only knew parts of the Roscoe White story. I hesitate to offer subjective evaluations of witnesses' but hey, that's what juries do every day. And if I had to judge Shaw base on the "Evidence Of Revision" video, he does strike me as honest and careful.
  18. Denny Zartman
    I'm not sure I discount "I Was Mandarin..." immediately because it was linked as a reference by David Perry, who it seems is the authoritative figure in debunking the Roscoe White story. Though I do agree that it reads much like a movie treatment. I don't believe I rely on many facts from the article in evaluating this whole story, other than the author's belief that, if this indeed is a hoax, Ricky is not the mastermind. It seems Ricky was one of the ones who immediately questioned the second, obviously forged diary. Not the behavior of someone set on supporting a false story, in my opinion. I didn't know your theory was "Walker did it." I don't see how Gen. Walker and/or the DPD could control the autopsy in Bethesda. Someone had to be able to call J. Edgar Hoover and have the authority tell him how the investigation was going to go and get no questions asked. I doubt Gen. Walker had that kind of authority, but maybe someone in the military did. Other than that, I have to pretty much agree with your assessment. I still feel the need to think it over a bit more before I form an opinion on the Roscoe White story, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't made up my mind on other matters based on much less circumstantial evidence.
  19. Denny Zartman
    A second partial correction: According to the YouTube video I posted in my first post on this thread "Evidence of Revision - JFK Assassination Rarities", Reverend Jack Shaw did speak to Roscoe in the roughly two days Roscoe survived after the explosion that eventually killed him. There doesn't seem to be any testimony by Shaw that Roscoe specifically confessed to the JFK assassination, but there apparently was a murder confession or confessions of some sort. Also, Shaw does say in the video that Roscoe clearly indicated that he (Roscoe) thought the explosion was not an accident. Here's a full transcript of the Jack Shaw interview, 28:48 to 31:08 on "Evidence of Revision - JFK Assassination Rarities." INTERVIEWER - Joining us now is Baptist minister Jack Shaw. Jack was at Roscoe White's deathbed, and Jack, I understand Roscoe actually lived for about 48 hours after his accident, and you were able to talk to him. What did he tell you? JACK SHAW - We talked about several things, but the beginning of the conversation he talked about what happened. We discussed that and he said that he had gone on a break and he came back off the break and there was a - under the bench there was a can, and he was in a hurry to get home that day, and he fired up the welding torch, and an explosion happened. and he also said that he saw someone leaving the scene in a hurry when he was coming back in from the break INTERVIEWER - So the point was he indicated to you that he believed that this was not an accident. JACK SHAW - Yes, I - yes, he indicated that to me, yes. INTERVIEWER - Okay now I know that you made some 40 to 50 hours of audio tape with Roscoe's wife Geneva. What did she tell you in your hours of interviews? JACK SHAW - Well, we talked about - we talked about a lot of things, but she talked about overhearing her husband and Jack Ruby talking and - about the assassination, and things like that. And we talked about many events that transpired after the assassination. INTERVIEWER - Now Jack, I understand that Geneva told you that she had a conversation with her husband where Roscoe told her why he was going to xxx pres k that he was going to do it and why. JACK SHAW - Yes she did. [Reading] She said that Roscoe told her that "Kennedy has been a pretty good president, but he has to die. He didn't carry out his own orders, and if I don't carry out my orders, I'll have to die too." [Stops reading] INTERVIEWER - This [is] pretty amazing stuff. Do you believe her? JACK SHAW - I've said all along that I've been place in a unique position. And I don't know exactly why I've been placed here, but I'm hoping that someone would come forth with evidence that will confirm what I've been told. That's what I'm hoping for, and what I'm praying for, and until that happens, I have to remain open about this INTERVIEWER - I see. And once again this is based on your interview with Roscoe wife's [sic] wife who has since passed away. Jack Shaw, thank you very much for being with us and sharing that [unclear]. From Harrison Livingstone's "High Treason 2" pg 466: A preacher also flits in and out of this story. The Reverend Jack Shaw was with Roscoe White as he lay dying after a mysterious fire - a fire his son says was no accident but intended to kill White. Shaw says that White confessed his murders (more than one) to him. Shaw also says he has tapes of Geneva White revealing what she knew. At one point Shaw mentioned to newsmen that he worked for the CIA. I went to the home of the Reverend Shaw and his wife, along with my chief investigator, Richard Waybright, and I was impressed with his honesty and knowledge of the case. "I am convinced that Roscoe White did shoot President Kennedy," he told us. "I believe that Roscoe was telling the truth, and had no reason to lie." I'm puzzled why Livingstone did not seem to follow up on Shaw's alleged comments to newsmen about working for the CIA. It should be pointed out that in the YouTube video clip, Shaw doesn't say either way in believing Geneva's statements, while he does take a stance in his comments as reported by Livingstone.
  20. Denny Zartman
    From my research, I should make some corrections. I'll try to go back and edit my earlier posts. It seems that Roscoe White did in fact have involvement in photography. From Joseph McBride's "Into The Nightmare", pg 587 Despite the existence of the "backyard photo" in the Roscoe White family's possession, Perry claimed, apparently inaccurately, that Roscoe was not working in the DPD photographic area and had no special interest in photography. Dale Meyers, on the other hand, although trying to discount the Roscoe White story, reports that Roscoe was on temporary duty as a photographer and clerk. White's widow told the HSCA that her husband had been skilled in trick photography. Perry argued that Roscoe was not involved in fabricating the photos but took home a piece of photographic evidence as a keepsake and that other Dallas policemen also did the same, a reflection of the lax attitude the department took toward even its fabricated evidence. A few sentences later: ...the HSCA learned in 1978 that Detective Richard S. Stovall, a member of Captain Fritz's Homicide and Robbery Bureau in 1963, had a copy of the same backyard photograph the White family possessed.) [Former Dallas policeman William] Barnard said that "quite a few" prints of Oswald were made by department personnel. "We all had those kind of pictures," Barnard admitted. So, it is possible that Roscoe White may have worked on the backyard photos as well as keeping a copy he should not have had (as his heavily redacted FBI files point out). Jack White told me he was not convinced that Roscoe was a shooter in the assassination but he was convinced that Roscoe, through his work in the photographic section of the DPD, was involved in helping frame Oswald. First of all, for what possible innocent reason could Roscoe White's FBI files be "heavily redacted"? Second, if I were a Warren Commission supporter, I would be incredibly embarrassed that their investigation, the one that even saw fit to seek out and publish Jack Ruby's mother's dental records, somehow missed an alternate photograph of the alleged assassin of the president, even though "quite a few" prints were floating around and "all" the Dallas policemen had "those kind" of pictures. Third, it seems to be acknowledged that Roscoe White was in a position to handle DPD evidence in the JFK assassination. If he were able to get his hands on an alternate copy of the backyard photograph that was apparently being handed out willy-nilly among DPD officers yet apparently escaped the notice of the Feds, what other evidence might he and others have been able to handle and either plant, substitute, or dispose of entirely?
  21. Denny Zartman
    In one of the books I consulted, it said there was no relation between Jack and Roscoe. You're absolutely right about the other non-family evidence, and that many researchers virtually ignore the Dallas PD. I think a lot of them felt they got burned by the events around the Ricky White press conference. I suspect that, instead of helping, private investigator Joe West and the Matsu corporation were deliberately trying to muddy the waters and discredit the Roscoe White story. It should be common sense to suspect that a group of wealthy Texas oilmen wouldn't be eager to support a story that discredits the lone gunman narrative. I went back and read the relevant portions of "Into the Nightmare" and "High Treason 2." I still don't feel like I'm getting the whole story. Despite some problems I have and some unanswered questions, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's just too many coincidences to write it all off as either chance or a hoax. I will try to elaborate in a separate post.
  22. Denny Zartman
    Thanks for the excerpt. I hadn't heard that story before. If true, it's incriminating and I suppose the first real non-family member witness that could support the Roscoe White theory. Unfortunately, is also written that "some of the narrative cited above came to light as a result of hypnosis." That alone is enough for skeptics to dismiss it. It's a real shame, especially if the main details of being in the police station and having a friend with a high-ranking father in the police department are accurate.
  23. Denny Zartman
    Thank you for the suggestion of Treachery In Dallas, Paul. It looks very interesting. I will be sure to order it soon. I'm still thinking carefully about the Roscoe White story. I need to go back over everything I can find, make some notes, and try to sort it out a little bit more.
  24. Denny Zartman
    Thanks for the comments, Paul. It certainly is a mystery. One question for now, it's probably been addressed in the past: I seem to remember a witness on the grassy knoll report meeting a policeman with no hat and dirty hands immediately after the assassination. Could this possibly tie in?
  25. Denny Zartman
    Hi Paul, It amazes me that after so many years of reading on this subject, I can still find so many stories that just continue to surprise and perplex me. It's an endlessly fascinating mystery. "I Was Mandarin..." raises so many questions. If one accepts the author's characterization of Ricky White as an honest person, it seems to follow that one would have to accept the existence of the diary and that it said what Ricky says it said. Then, it seems the question becomes: if the diary was a forgery, who forged it? If it existed, what happened to it? If it existed and it were a forgery, would the FBI take it and if so, why? Would the forgers decide to hide their own forgery for whatever reason, and still attempt to sell their story without it? If the story of the metal canister in the burned out attic is true, why would a forger go to such lengths to hide it? If Roscoe made up a story in order to benefit his family after his passing, why try to hide it like that? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see the debunking article try to address the "green" book or the alleged CIA cables either. These are far from the first things on the list that bother me about the Roscoe White story. The mere fact that he had a military connection to Oswald and his wife had a professional connection to Ruby is mighty suspicious, I feel.
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