Michael Clark

Bagely was likely a sadistic, myopic torturer. His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by that part of human nature which demands that we justify what we have done in order to absolve ourselves of guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so. https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf Italics are mine... TOP SECRET 13 October 1970 MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington #386 38 1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position. 2) I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time. 3) I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions.   Howard J. Osborn Director of Security 

I reported this post to the moderators. If everyone acted like you we would not have a forum.

TOP SECRET 13 October 1970 MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington #386 38 1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position. 2) I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confess their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time. 3) I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that the Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone subjects instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that and Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. Howard J. Osborn Director of Security

Tommy, Bagely was likely a sadistic, myopic torturer. His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by that part of human nature which demands that we justify what we have done in order to absolve ourselves of guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so. https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

Yes. That’s a good thread.

I think he means the Russian White House, not the Kremlin. It was the Russian Parliament or Parliament offices at the time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_(Moscow) ...and the 1991 coup attempt.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d'état_attempt Or, more probably, The 1993 Constitutional Crisis... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis

It is an important debate. Greg Burnham follows Prouty in maintaining that Bundy called off an airstrike the night before, when three planes were left.

Paul Brancato engaged you. Sometimes it takes a few posts, highlighting points for debate, to garner the interest of forum members.

Greg Burnham shared this, from The Black Vault, today on Facebook. The Black Vault has converted (all?) documents into a searchable, clickable index. http://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/j-f-k-assassination-records/# The entire collection of all records released have been compiled below. Despite the files originally being released in a non-searchable format, The Black Vault converted 100% of the files to a searchable format, and compiled them into a search engine above. In addition, The Black Vault created a 3,032 page index file of the entire collection, with clickable links to download the files. This also can be downloaded below. The Documents Released Please Note: Due to the size of the following index, which is more than 47MB in size, we recommend to download (right click, save as…) the .pdf file to your desktop, and open it from there. CLICK HERE FOR A COMPLETE INDEX OF DOCUMENTS RELEASED [3,032 Pages, 28.3MB]

That link did not work for me. I found this...

Well, thanks for entertaining my question. We are kind of off topic now. But to be sure, Mervyn, Paul is not ignoring you. Paul's style can, unfortunately, be difficult upon first introductions. It took me months to realize that he is a fair, intelligent, knowledgeable straight-shooter. He just happens to be blunt. And , Mervyn, you are fairly blunt as well. Also, keep in mind that it Is Paul Trejo who maintains a growing list of people on his ignore list, and he publicly announces each addition when he does-so. Jason does the same thing, that is how they come to have a personal discussion instead of a debate, in a debate forum. You and Paul Brancato had a misunderstanding and it is unnecessarily affecting ongoing debate between the two of you. Paul Brancato does not stick his fingers in his hears and stick out his tongue, like Jason and Trejo. Thanks again, Michael

Russia may be a diversion to get the old guard back in charge. If I am right, Trump will be taken out be the media, before he serves 2 years; and we may end-up with 10 Years of Pence. I hold the same revulsion for Trump that many people do. But there is no getting around the fact that most politicians and people are multi faceted, we/they wear different hats. One hat that Trump says he wears is that of the deep-state disruptor. I see some evidence of that being true. His recent statements regarding Big Pharma is hugely important. He did not cave completely on the records release and his most out of character statement came with regard to the same when he said "I have no choice" back in November. That was something to behold, I not know if that struck a chord with anyone else. He promised a stupid wall and he has to follow through, or try to. I just see him as posssibly making a turn towards the better. He is no conservative, fiscally, morally or otherwise. He's not a neocon. He's not a real oligarch, in the mold of Rockefeller and the like. He's a phony, wannabeee Oligarch. Lastly the media is and has been on a Russia-did-it trip with regard to the elections. I start any analysis by assuming that I am being lied to, and then see if that makes sense. I don't see the Russians as having put Trump in power, I see domestic forces as having prevented Hillary from taking the WH, propping up Trump for a couple years, then sliding in an unelected agent for the Sam-ole same-ole crap that we have seen for 50 years. So, although it may go against the very core and conscience of your soul, you (anyone) may want to consider voicing support for Trump, because ten years of Pence might very well be the alternative.

Thanks Mervyn, To be sure, I am not convinced that The CIA or ONI could or would create an effective false defector operation by compelling their agent under threat. I appreciate your position thank you for the clarification; I will keep an open mind regarding that scenario. Yet, it should be remembered that LHO left the Marines, under a family hardship discharge, went home and almost immediately left for Europe. If he believed, prior to his discharge, that he was going to school in Switzerland, or even knew that he was going on some other operation, for which college coursework was a cover, then I believe that this whole operation started while he was in the Marines. I think that this early initiation of this operation, commencing with an early marine discharge, just does not jibe with a coerced operative. But in the end, I am wondering what the importance of this element of the Europe trip really amounts to. Is this just an idle side conversation of is it important part of the picture you are developing. For me it is of interest because I have my ears open for ONI involvement in the JFK assassination operation and Paul Trejo's theory, that the CIA and ONI were working LHO this early, piqued my interest. Thanks again Mervyn

Hi Mervyn, I haven't given it a lot of thought or study, but at first consideration I don't see how coercion could get a young man to head home from the marines, pack-up and head to Russia, playing the part of a defector on dee threat of death. It seems like the kind of job that has to be done right, with skill and with some personal and ideological mind set. Being a spy and, more dangerous yet, a counter intelligence operator In Russia would be dangerous work, and it would also dangerous for the CIA or whatever agency sent him there. Being under threat of death would, I would think, lead such an actor to seek safety in the hands of the enemy. So I have to look into it , but, in the meantime, I have to question whether the CIA really works that way, in a strategic manner. I can understand Central Intelligence, or military intelligence doing such a thing in a more tactical manner.

I have to agree with Lawrence here.

T.. Show us something that supports your understanding of James' beliefs. Are we debating your contrivances or something else?

Yup..

It is an excellent article. It's kind of painful to read. It highlights JFK's competence to lead us where we could have gone. It points out the reality of a possible French Connection, and reinforces and expands the length width and breadth of the Vietnam experience for the United States.

This an excellent explanation for Oswald's trip to the USSR.

Yup, Tommy’s rubber stamping of threads is like graffiti tagging. It does not pass the “would I want everyone to do as I do” test. I wonder if he marks-up bathroom stalls and breaks random stuff for kicks. It reminds me of a song by Denis Leary... the title of which escapes my memory....

This thread is for sharing documents. If you have something to debate please create or find another thread.

Now, on June 11, these unnecessary and harmful internet regulations will be repealed and the bipartisan, light-touch approach that served the online world well for nearly 20 years will be restored," Ajit Pai, chairman of the FCC, said in a statement Thursday." http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/10/technology/net-neutrality-end-date/index.html .............. Will the National archives have to pay, per-bit, for the acess of its users? Or will its users have to pay, per-bit, to access the Archive? Probably both...

Phillips A compreheniveish timeline. The last entry: " Most conspicuous thing about file is that it does not go beyond the time he left Havana in 1960". https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/180-10143-10096.pdf

Edmund Gullion, JFK, and the Shaping of a Foreign Policy in Vietnam James Norwood In the 1951 photograph above, President Charles de Gaulle is leading a contingent through the streets of Saigon at a time when France was engaged in a losing cause during the First Indochina War. In the back of the pack, a young congressman from Massachusetts, John F. Kennedy, is observing the conditions on the ground in a war effort that was at the time receiving substantial American aid. Kennedy’s younger brother Robert accompanied him on the trip. RFK later ran on an anti-war platform at the height of the Vietnam War, shortly before his assassination in 1968. This study explores the impact of the 1951 trip to Vietnam on John F. Kennedy, his association with the diplomat Edmund Gullion, and the evolving vision of JFK for American foreign policy in Vietnam, which was articulated in a major address given in 1954. As a congressman from Massachusetts, Kennedy embarked on a seven-week, 25,000-mile trip in 1951. Accompanied by his brother Robert and his sister Patricia, Kennedy visited Israel, Pakistan, Iran, India, Singapore, Thailand, French Indochina (Vietnam), Korea, and Japan .................. In March of 1952, Kennedy spoke to an audience in Everett, Massachusetts, voicing his opposition to sending American troops to assist the French in Indochina. In April, he addressed a Knights of Columbus chapter in nearby Lynn, stating that “we should not commit our ground troops to fight in French Indochina.” After Dien Pien Phu... The Geneva agreement stipulated that in the nation’s transition to independence, there would be a temporary partition of the country pending a national election to be held in the summer of 1956. But the United States never signed the Geneva agreements, and almost immediately, the CIA aggressively began to transform Vietnam with the same zeal that had just effected regime changes in Iran and Guatemala. .................. In 1954... On the floor of the Senate, Kennedy prefaced his chronological survey by demanding the government’s accountability to the American people for adventurism and potential war in Vietnam: "If the American people are, for the fourth time in this century, to travel the long and tortuous road of war—particularly a war which we now realize would threaten the survival of civilization—then I believe we have a right—a right which we should have hitherto exercised—to inquire in detail into the nature of the struggle in which we may become engaged, and the alternative to such struggle. Without such clarification the general support and success of our policy is endangered." .................. "I am frankly of the belief that no amount of American military assistance in Indochina can conquer an enemy which is everywhere and at the same time nowhere, “an enemy of the people” which has the sympathy and covert support of the people" ................... JFK’s tour-de-force Senate address of 1954 was not political grandstanding. Rather, it was a carefully formulated examination of the question of American intervention in Vietnam at a pivotal moment for both nations. ................ During the 1960 presidential campaign, Kennedy stressed that we would never succeed in Laos against “guerrilla forces or in peripheral wars … We have been driving ourselves into a corner where the choice is all or nothing.” ................. As a senator, Kennedy had recognized that “public thinking is still being bullied by slogans which are either false in context or irrelevant to the new phase of competitive coexistence in which we live.” ................. The history of the Vietnam War is invariably delineated by historians as a continuum of escalating involvement from the administrations of Eisenhower to Kennedy to Johnson to Nixon in the form of an incremental progression.33 This essay challenges that notion as apparent in the vision of John F. Kennedy, one that vehemently opposed conventional warfare in Vietnam