Michael Clark

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

By the numbers:

1. Of course Marina Oswald, when she was first picked up by the Secret Service on 11/23/1963, was terrified and she denied everything.  Yet she was not under oath.

2.  Of course, since Marina Oswald denied everything in her initial panic, her denials would contradict the WR outcome.   What else would denials do?

3. I have read countless CT books that have been hateful toward Marina Oswald.  They offer no material evidence -- just cloak-and-dagger fiction -- so I now ignore them.

4.  Yes, Marina wanted to stay in the US, and the Secret Service correctly told her that the best way for her to ensure that she could stay in the USA would be to cooperate fully with the US Government.  One single mistake could send her back to the USSR.  Marina Oswald hated the USSR.  She promised to tell the TRUTH at that point, and she did.

5.  It is incorrect to say that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth because Marina was disillusioned with Lee Harvey Oswald as a husband.

5.1.  The first time Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine was in late April, 1963, when Oswald was abandoning Marina to move to New Orleans without her. 

5.2.  Oswald was going to leave Marina at the Neely Street apartment, and would send her a letter when he was ready for her.  (They had no phone).  Marina would be alone, pregnant, with a baby, and she spoke no English.

5.3.  Ruth Paine took Marina Oswald into her home out of sweet Quaker charity, and no other reason.  To make Marina feel less obligated, Ruth Paine told her that Marina could give her Russian conversational lessons. 

5.4.  It's also true that Ruth liked Marina personally, and enjoyed the company, since Michael Paine had separated from her.  Also, baby June called Ruth, "auntie Ruth," and Ruth liked that.  Child care was their most pressing concern.

5.5.  When Oswald finally got settled in New Orleans, he called Ruth Paine's house and told Marina, and Marina jumped for joy, and exclaimed to baby June, "Papa loves us!"

5.6.  So, no there was not much sign of lost love -- only worry on the part of Marina (and Ruth) that Lee Harvey Oswald might abandon his family.  That was the issue.

5.7.  The second time that Marina Oswald moved in with Ruth Paine, in September, 1963, she was eight months pregnant, had no money, had no health insurance, had not seen a doctor, and Lee Harvey Oswald was out of work for the 3rd time in one year.  

5.8.  So, again, that was sweet Quaker charity.  It is backward to propose any other conclusion.

6.  I find nowhere in the record where the Oswalds spoke of divorce. 

6.1.  Marina told Ruth Paine as early as March, 1963, that Lee Harvey Oswald would threaten to send Marina back to the USSR without him.  She was terrified of that.  Evidently, Lee Oswald said that to Marina to keep her under his thumb.

7.  It is ridiculous to think of Marina Oswald as a "gift" to Oswald from the KGB.   First and foremost, Marina hated the USSR and she hated Communism.  She wanted her own apartment (without roaches) as a primary goal in life.

8. Despite all the objections of Marina-haters out there, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that -- after taking the WC oath -- Marina Oswald told the TRUTH.

9. Some Russian Émigrés in Dallas testified that they believed Marina Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald to come to the USA, pure and simple.    I think that's cynical, although that could have been one among her many other motives for marriage.

9.1.   If Lee Harvey Oswald ever wanted Russian citizenship, he had four years inside Russia to apply for it.  He never did.  That should answer your question fully.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Among the other bunk that Paul unloads above is the claim that LHO did not request Citizenship in Russia. I repeatedly correct him on that point, among others, yet he still keeps repeating the same claims.

On 4/29/2017 at 3:59 PM, Michael Clark said:

Paul. I have, twice now, responded to your repeated claim that LHO did not hand in his passport, reounce citizenship, or apply for Soviet citizenship.

You keep repeating that claim.

Perhaps you are aware of some evidence that backs-up your repeated claim? If you do have such evidence I would be interested in seeing it, because I have repeatedly posted evidence to the contrary.

--------------------

Diary of LHO:

Oct.16. Arrive from Helsinki by train ;am met by Intourest Repre.and in car to Hotel "Berlin". Reges. as. "studet" 5 day Lux .tourist. Ticket.) Meet my Intorist guied Rimma Sherikova I explain to her I wish to appli. for Rus.citizenship. She is flabber;assed, but aggrees to help. She checks with her boss, main officeIntour;than helps me add.a letter to Sup.Sovit asking for citizenship, mean while boss telephone passport & visa office and notifies them about me.

Oct.31. I make my dision. Getting passport at 12"00 I meet and talk with Rimma for a few minutes she says:stay in your room and eat well, I don't tell her about what I intend to do since I know she would not approve. After she leaves I wait a few minutes and than I catch a taxi, "American Embassy" I say. 12"30, I arrive American Embassy, I walk in and say to the receptionist `I would like to see the Consular" she points at a large lager and says"if you a tourist please register". I take out my American passport and lay it o the desk. "I have come to dissolve my American citizenship. I saymatter-of-factly she rises and enters the office of Richard Snyder

American Head Consular in Moscow at that time. He invites me to sit r down. He finishes a letter he is typing and then asks what he can do for me. I tell him I have dicided to take Soviet citizenship and would like to leagly dissolve my U .S.citizenship. His assitant (now Head Consular) McVickers e looks up from his work . Snyder serys- takes down personall Information,

Jan.5. ........Iwrotemy brother & mother letters in which I said "I do not wish to every contact you again." Iam defining a new life and I don't wand any part of the old".

July - I decided to take my two week vacation and travel to Moscow (without police permission) to the American Embassy to see about getting my US passport back.

 

Cheers,

Michael

This thread should have Ruth Paine in the title as well. I have been tempted make a new one myself, but that may not be good practice. If Ashton was still around I would make the suggestion.

12 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

YO ... Yoose guys may be onto something ... Frank Sturgis, (real name Frank Angelo Fiorini) was born in Philadelphia where he lived from 1930 to 1942.  He went to Catholic school and then attended Roosevelt Junior High School, Philadelphia, and Germantown High School, Philadelphia.  In his senior year of high school, Frank joined the Marines on October 5, 1942. He was only 17 years old, and would later claim that before the war, he had strong leanings toward becoming a Catholic priest. He attained the rank of Corporal and survived intensive combat including Iwo Jima, Okinawa and Guadalcanal.  He later suffered from combat fatigue, and escaped three times from the Sun Valley Naval Center before he was given a medical release.  Fiorini was honorably discharged from the Navy on August 30, 1948 and the next day he joined the Army, his third and final armed services branch. During his Army tenure in Berlin and Heidelberg, he worked in an intelligence unit and had a top secret clearance. After receiving an honorable discharge he joined the United States Merchant Marines in 1950 and traveled to and from Europe.
 

Gene, My Philly bag is bottomless, and so loaded, that a huge, important clump like Sturgis still gets lost in the mix.

Adding these as I came upon them in realated searches.

April to May 1964 Secret Service doc.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/Machann Walter J Jr Reverend/Item 05.pdf

Reposting this here so I don't  have to bump this in the main forum

1 minute ago, Gene Kelly said:

Attended University of Pennsylvania (Mascot is a Quaker)

No offense intended, unless, u-did-it. Ha ha!

I dont have much except a heavy bag.

I am very much a geographically oriented person. I sort my evidence, in part, geographically. I just happened to notice how freakin heavy my Philly bag is. I threw this thread out there to see if anyone would come-back, saying, "yup, mine is heavy too". 

On 8/16/2017 at 7:06 PM, Michael Walton said:

Johnny said it best. This whole clone story is a disgraceful myth, a fairy tale.  And I love the way his quote talks about how myths are pie in the sky, unrealistic capers that keep getting hammered on over and over again as Hargrove and his mentor do, and as people like Larsen and others continue to fall for.

https://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/09/5b/74/095b74a39c0f7838d529f1f822a47860.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/NZOlQHWccBfYA/giphy.gif

Michael, Are you Mark Henceroth?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/6325-mark-henceroth/

The floor is open for debate.....

5 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Hey Gene,  I have to confess about my anti-Quaker bias. I'm a direct ancestor of "Quaker Sam" Morris  who ironically was ex-communicated by Philadelphia's Quakers for participating in the Revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Morris_(soldier)

In theory, the east coast blue bloods, the Chestnut Hill Set, were the same Ivy League bastards running all our intelligence services, so it would not surprise me in the least if Philadelphia Quakers were used for "cover" along with VOA, USIS & USIA.

 

There is a solid Philadelphia connection to the JFKA.

39 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

The Warren Commission was an INVESTIGATIVE BODY, not a prosecutor.  

The US Attorney General was NOT on the Warren Commission.

NO PROSECUTORS were on the Warren Commission.

Earl Warren was Chief Justice, which is a JUDGE, and NOT a prosecutor.

The Warren Commission prosecuted NO ONE...because that WAS NOT THEIR MISSION.

 

I believe that's the MOST insane question I've EVER seen asked on these forums...and by someone who SHOULD know how absurd that question is.

And that "thrown out of court" comment was almost humorous, if this wasn't such a serious subject to begin with.

And no one, as far as I know, was charged with perjury for lying to the WC.

4 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

  #1 three year old claims he's gone anyway.

One thing I brought up before is that I'm not in real high confidence about much of any of the official or even non-official rifle related timelines.   Paul had a lot to say about that which I'm still reviewing.  For one thing, Marina is clearly an early meth head or so scared of deportation that her testimony on matters of potential dispute can only be taken with a grain of sale, agree or disagree?   What I mean to say is that if Marina says the rifle showed up in the winter or spring or on such and such day, well then, that serves to my mind as one reference point but probably earns no higher than 50% confidence.  Likewise, anything she says about guns in blankets, pictures she takes, and General Walker are, again in my opinion only, noteworthy but not the end of the story on the matter.  

many thanks,

Jason

#1... three year old claims....

I have no idea what that is in reference to.

Regarding Marina....

One of my shortcomings is that I cannot tell when people are lying, for the most part. When I see her on film, I believe her. 

So, I am left with the knowledge that there are lies, and I have to sort it out the best I can. I also have to rely on credible, sceptical researchers.

Just now, Jason Ward said:

Many thanks, Michael, this is very valuable to me.

As an aside, the gratuitous jabs from precisely 2 members of the community cannot go unanswered - as I've seen these badly behaved insecure children pull this crap for years.  If I get old in my style, as always, please don't bother yourself with whatever baseless remarks I say.

Thanks again, your pointers above are well received.  But I have a few questions: do you presume the Hiddell identity is only assasinated related at the time it is initiated?., it has many uses, does it not?  You are convinced the rifle is purchased in April?  I'm convinced the money order and Klein's bank records in the WC exhibits are bogus.  For one thing, the Klein's bank records are dated in February for an alleged end of March/April purchase.  I agree with you LHO never had this rifle, but I think they had to do some retroactive paperwork to tie it into the narrative.  As always, thanks for the substantive reply.

Jason

As for the gratuitous jabs, it had nothing to do with our exchange and was out of place. I would suggest more careful placement of your responses, or I'll think you are coming after me.

I said the rifle was purchase in the spring, not April. I was not being specific. Late Winter would have been more accurate, but we are splitting hairs.

Regarding the generation of the Hidell identity, it could be purposed for anything. I would have to look more closely at its history, but generally, it was part of a collection of tools being gathered. I believe the JFKA was being drafted at this point.

27 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Michael, thanks for your observation.

If you're too busy working on the puzzle on  your own, please don't let me interrupt.   Likewise, if people like Jim can't tolerate someone who questions their authority, I hope they will just not respond.  I do sense that a few big egos feel I should be grateful they type a few words on their screen, but really I'd prefer if this type would just ignore me if they can't treat me as an equal.  It seems obvious to me that many CTs have no concept of how their perceived and/or they are absent from the fact that they themselves destroy their credibility by among other things, behavior and attitudes like is sometimes seen in the worst of this forum. 

Just to clarify: I'm interested in hearing when others believe Oswald is designated the patsy.   I'd hope they would offer a bit of support for their conclusion, even if it's just along the lines of "because we Odio mentioned assassination at the end of September."   I personally believe it's bordering on pointless to pursue anything about Oswald too much before he's designated the patsy.   We're already know he's a groomed fake Marxist.  I believe is the critical part is the conspiracy and any remaining unearthed evidence can only come from the last couple months or after such time as he was designated a pansy.  Again, those who are too busy shouldn't waste their time talking with me.

I really appreciate your input and hope you'll respond, thanks again.

Jason

An Alex Hidel was an identity being set-up in early 1963.

The Manicher Rifle was purchased in the spring.

Walker was shot at in April.

Taking those three things in isolation I would say that the cast was being cast. It was to early to be solidly mounding the patsy.

-----------

I don't believe LHO ordered or possessed the rifle.

As per David Josephs, there were 100 guns with the same serial number shipped to the US, they are all anaccounted for except "Oswalds".

I suspect that provisions for the existence of Alex Hidell patsies were being gathered in various locations.

LHO was being sheep dipped in the Summer.

-----------------

My feeling is that we can be sure of, with my evidence and observations, LHO's selection as patsy with the confidence building effort in September-late August, in Dallas, at the DAP/LHO/AV meeting. But I know I have repeated myself with that assertion. I just wanted to backfill the story for you a bit.

-----------

As an aside, your first paragraph of the post I just replied to was a gratuitous jab at members and the community. If you are too thin skinned that you will respond to every post with a collection of responses to cumulative, forum-wide, past sleights, your style will quickly get old.

Cheers,

Michael

Jason, One problem I see with this thread, is, inasmuch as it has anything to do with you, that you are asking "when" LHO donned the Patzy cap. Yet your actual line of inquiry is "can we place the said cap donning in or around October?" (Approximate quote)

That's really not a problem in itself; approach this, or anything, as you wish.

The problem arises when you conflate your question with your conclusion, and ask others to prove it for you.

You are tacitly saying that it happened around October, offer no argument for that, and ask for us to prove that. That might be fine in a professor-undergraduate relationship but that is not what we have here. We are a bunch of busy conspiracy theorists working on this puzzle individually. You are asking us to focus on your small area of the puzzle and solve it for you. That's not going to happen.

Thats my observation, do you see any validity in it?

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, I did see it and I read the article. I remember because it was in a local paper, The Deseret News.

Don't assume there is no interest just because nobody responds. Just think of all the Douglas Caddy posts that get no response, yet he gets a lot of praise for posting those articles.

 

Posted above in the previous post.

On 8/4/2017 at 0:41 PM, Michael Clark said:

Roughly translated from this ducument using my iPad voice text function.

Yeltsin/Clinton cashe ducument regarding LHO Russian Consulate letter.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0028a.htm

 

Do we have the source of our wire-tap?

Do we have the reason why a forged letter would be generated?

-------------

At 16 hours 00 minutes, the U.S. Telegraph agency reported that police in Dallas, TX, had arrested a U.S. National Lee H. Oswald, 24 years old, Chairman of the local branch of the FPCC, on suspicion that he had assassinated Kennedy.

It is also reported that Oswald was in the USSR some time ago and is married to a Russian woman.

It was ascertained by checking at the consulate section of the embassy that Oswald really did spend several years in Minsk,  where he married Soviet citizens Marina P. (born 1941). In June 1962, they returned to the US. In March 1963 Marina applied to return with her daughter to the USSR for permanent residency. The KU of the Ministry of Foreign Affair of the USSR (October 7, 1963) reported that her application was rejected.

The counselor section of the embassy has the correspondence between Marina and Oswald regarding her return to Russia.The last letter from Lee Oswald was dated November 9 (the text was transmitted on the line of nearby neighbors).

 

Bringing this to Sany's attention

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, I did see it and I read the article. I remember because it was in a local paper, The Deseret News.

Don't assume there is no interest just because nobody responds. Just think of all the Douglas Caddy posts that get no response, yet he gets a lot of praise for posting those articles.

 

Yes, thanks. I know better than to assume. I just wanted to ask you.

it was in the local paper? Are we talking about the same thing? I'll re post it here, to be sure.

Sandy, as an aside, did you see the Yeltsin memo regarding the LHO dec 9 letter that I posted a few days ago? It garnered no interest and I thought it was a very interesting find.

59 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Michael,

When you say the MC trip was to "give the hired guns, anti-Castro Cubans, confidence that the agreed-upon plan was being implemented," do you mean give them confidence before the assassination, or after the assassination?

I ask because if it was to give confidence before, then there would be nothing for the Cubans to see at that time (other than perhaps Oswald leaving town). And if it was to give confidence after, then what they would see is actual war. In which case I would argue that the primary purpose of the MC trip was a prelude to war.... with perhaps a secondary purpose being to give anti-Castro Cubans confidence.

 

Sandy, in my working pet CT, MC and the Dallas meeting between LHO/DAP/AV were meant to give the hired guns confidence that the operation, the hit, was being set-up as planned. It had to include an American so Communism (an ideology) would be blamed, rather than Cubans ( a race of people, so to speak). Guys like Phillips, Hunt and Morales were asking the the Anti-Castro Cubans to kill Kennedy. Their pay-back would be a free Cuba. The fact that they had to have these confidence building measures was a sign that there was not absolute trust. Having an American involved showed them that the organizers were serious and upholding their part of the plan.

I believe that LHO did go to MC and evidence for his trip and activities were generated. After the assassination, that evidence was made to disappear, in order to double cross the Cubans.

------- You said "if it was to give confidence before, then there would be nothing for the Cubans to see at that time"

Veciana met LHO in the presence of Phillips. If it was in the Southland Center, that probably meant something as well. Who knows whose offices were there? I believe the Mexican Consulate was there. Perhaps other very important people were there amd Veciana was familiar with that place, and those people. It would be highly unordinary to meet there, but this is how Veciana knew they were serious.DAP and LHO, together, would go a long way in instilling confidence.

THAT would be "something to see".

Pictures or photos of LHO doing his thing, loudly, and conspicuously in MC, would be something to see. Photos, reports, operatives or informants could confirm that the organizers were moving along according to plan, based on what they saw in MC.

- They would also probably have received confirmation that LHO was in position with a job at the TSBD.

all of these things were confidence building measures, and some of this evidence would serve as assurance, insurance, and, eventually, black mail, at Watergate.

I am seeing a series of confidence building measures.

After the assassination, the Anti Castro Cubans got double crossed by local Dallas elements, some intelligence elements, Industrial elements and the police. They screwed them by disappearing evidence of conspiracy, and creating the lone nut myth. It wasn't the threat of WWIII., It was a double-crossing that prevented the invasion.

5 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

it's been years since I read Lopez although I am a little more favorably inclined towards Hardway as the more rational force in the duo.  I'll take a look at the report and get back to you.

I don't have an evolving CT as much as I have a demand that the received wisdom of The Establishment (CT Establishment) be brought down a few pegs and hear that they are not anywhere close to believable by unconspiracy-drenched souls whose lives don't revolve around the Kennedy assassination.   Let me put it strategically: the CTs are just spinning their wheels until they meet a very high court-room level of evidence in the court of public opinion.  Where they cannot produce the evidence, they should IMO stop beating a dead horse and either dig up the evidence OR move to a part of the conspiracy where evidence is more likely to exist - i.e., among still-living participants.

I'm afraid I don't undertand your last sentence...'the connection with New Orleans...." As I said I don't have an evolving CT to any level of certainty, but I will just try to answer you by saying that everything in New Orleans is undoubtedly Castro oriented only, there is only weak-to-non-existent connection to LHO in New Orleans and his role as the patsy; he could have just as well been in general Marxist legend building for as yet unknown anti-castro/anti-USSR pursuits unrelated to JFK.

thanks again,

Jason

Jason, I hate to say this, out of deference to people who worked very hard for a very long time to get an indictable case, but, those days are over. 

All kinds of things are on the table now that would not be admissible in court. The pieces have to fit and make a comprehensive believable picture, that is all. Hearsay, associations and, yes, coincidences will put that picture together. This is just my opinion, to be sure. A pay stub made out to LHO or the killers is not going to turn-up.

Furthermore, LHO didn't act alone, and there was a cover-up, and CT's, inasfar as they are like me, are not really worried about convincing committed nutters.

14 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Many thanks for your thoughtful and polite approach, Michael.  I'll try to respond to everything you say but ping me if I fall short.

In brief, I absolutely agree all FPCC actions were used to make Oswald into a [rather unlikely and unbelievable] pro-Castro Marxist.

This American Marxist legend has many useful benefits in the Cold War milieu, but the assassination role for Oswald is only one of them.  The more obvious role is counter intelligence or direct penetration. To the non-CT-drenched eye, the assassination role does not require Oswald's patsy status as crystalized until October-ish and everything before then evidentially only safely concludes that Oswald was building his communist bona fides; purpose as yet unknown.

In absence of documented evidence, Oswald's purpose does not default to assassination patsy.

thanks again,

Jason

 

No need to make a point of responding. I just wanted to put the Mccord/FPCC and LHO/DAP/AV meeting clearly in front of you since I believe it is germaine to the question at hand..... Early September.

14 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Oh!  Now I think I get what your saying Sandy!  (Communist) Oswald, through Mexico, seeking passage through Cuba Back to the USSR might provoke an attack on either or both of them?  Wow, I'm amazed no one has thought of this before.  I've never read anything of it in newspapers or magazines or seen anything on TV.

Yes Ron, it's part two of the sheep dipping that started with the FPCC leafleting in NOLA.

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The purpose of Oswald's alleged MC trip was to draw a connection between Oswald the assassin, and Cuba and Russia. And the purpose for doing that was either 1) to use it as a prelude for war with Cuba or Russia; or 2) to frighten LBJ into covering up the conspiracy in order to avoid such a war, since it might lead to WW3.

I'm perplexed as to how this cannot be obvious. At least for those who are knowledgeable about the case.

 

My take on the MC trip is that it (just like the DAP/LHO/Veciana meeting) was employed in order to give the hired guns, anti-Castro Cubans, confidence that the agreed-upon plan was being implemented. That plan was that a Pro-Castro Cuban conspiracy, including LHO, would be blamed for the hit, and Cuba would be invaded.

Why did the invasion not happen? Because the Anti-Castro Cubans got double-crossed. The radical right and industrialist were not interested in a free Cuba, with a Mafia presence, and the US Navy decided that Guantanamo's future could best be secured by an adversarial relationship.

My double-cross theory supplants the WWIII theory. It also explains why the same crew showed up at Watergate. They wanted follow-through on the invasion. They didn't get what they wanted.