Michael Clark

Jason, I just wanted to take a second opportunity to bring two things to your attention, amidst this very active thread. They are key points in your inquiry as specified in the title of this thread.

- The David Atlee Phillips/Oswald/Veciana meeting

and

-The posittion of James McCord in the ranks of the CIA and his area of concern with regards to the FPCC in the relevant period.

Cheers,

Michael

26 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

You're simply mistaken about that.  I realize that there are many other positions, many other theories.  I find most of them boring and absurd, but that's only my opinion.

Yet I am encouraged by others.  For example, some people follow Ricky White.  I don't buy his story 100%, but I buy it 70%.

Others follow Jack White.  Same here -- 70%
Others follow Mark Lane.  Same way -- 70%
Others follow Jim Garrison.   Same -- 70%
Others follow Jim Marrs.  Same: 70%
Others follow Gaeton Fonzi.  Same: 70%

And there are many other positions, too.  For example, the Mafia-did-it CT's I can follow at most 40%, but there are interesting connections between Carlos Marcello, David Ferrie and Guy Banister, I have always admitted.

As for the LBJ-did-it CT's, I can follow at most 10% -- the only writer in this CT worth a darn was Craig Zirbel (1991), and he jumped over the moon.

What else -- oh -- then there's the Hoover-did-it CT, which is interesting, since I feel certain that Hoover knew EVERYTHING, and the most interesting question is only WHEN DID HE KNOW IT.  I give him the benefit of the doubt (lacking proof) but I am wide open to new evidence for Hoover.  He knew so darn much.

So -- yes, there are many other CT's out there, Mark.  I know about them because I read widely.  

Yet on this Forum, the most vocal CT is the CIA-did-it CT, in various forms.  Also, the CIA-did-it CTers make a point to insult the Walker-did-it CT, without solid reasons.  I've spent years here pointing out the flaws in their logic -- but they only get more emotional.

Sorry, I can't let that slide.  And when people insult Ruth Paine for basically nothing except their nasty attitudes, I will also speak out.  So, yes, I mainly debate here with the CIA-did-it CTers -- for those reasons.

But if you have new arguments about J. Edgar Hoover -- then I'm all ears.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul, it's obvious that you think that you know who are CIA-dit it ct's, and you think you know who are followers of this author or that, Jim Di being the most irritating point.

You are just flat out wrong in your assumptions. You leap to conclusions about who thinks what. It's absolutely aggravating. 

You think people beat up your Walker CT. Your wrong, were just tired of you proclaiming, 10 times a day, like you are Nostradamus, that our interests are worn out and boring and that you will be vindicated some day.

You project what you think we think on us. You wouldn't survive for a minute on any other forum and you use the rules of this forum as protection, and scratch and claw at those herein.

When we look at CIA elements and the "fingerprints of intelligence", as Newman puts it, you label us as CIA did it CT's yet you allow yourself to place Morales, Phillips Veciana, Hunt and others in your scope of investigation; yet you dismiss them ask"rugues" and start mocking anyone that is not going to be force-fed your Rogue Kool-Aid.

Lastly, you bring no evidence or documentation that is not already on the table. You cite Caufield's book, as a whole, interminably; but never pluck anything out of it for presentation or criticism.

Repeating,.... your projections of what you believe others think is annoying as all get-out.

Ill thank members for allowing me to use "we"'s and "us"'s to make a point. I make no claim that anyone here is in line with my thinking. Such use was for rhetorical purposes only.

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

I've collected several of Connally's interviews and press conferences on my sites, but he doesn't mention anything about hearing the "falling bullet" in any of them....

http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/2012/03/john-and-nellie-connally.html

Thanks David. I can recall his expressions that don't come across in words, even him squinting as he described the "ting" sound. I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong more as I get older, but dam, it seems so clear to me.

18 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

A big part of the problem with Trejo's incessant proselytizing is that anyone who disagrees with him is either a LNer or a "CIA-did-it" theorist. In his mind there is NO OTHER POSITION one may take.

And that's why I have so much problem with his zealotry.

Absolutely Mark, its ike it's him against the world. And I feel like he lumps all of us in together. Paul B made this point very succinctly in the recently deleted thread that was dedicated to Mr. Trejo. 

1 minute ago, Robert Harris said:

OK, for the first one to find and link that video, I will ask David to send a check for $1000!!

 

 

It was probably on his site, never to be seen again! Lol

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's odd. Because I also recall Connally describing something drop to the floor. That's how I became aware of this issue.

Perhaps what I saw was a video with a narrator describing how Connally heard something drop.

 

Thanks Sandy, I wouldn't have said anything without further confirmation, but I would swear that I saw a video and heard Connally describing the object drop. 

2 hours ago, Ty Carpenter said:

You have to admit, that is a bit of a reach. Whether Ruby knew LHO or not, you are proposing that he remembered the exact name of his committee, which he may or may not have heard months previously. And he had the presence of mind to correct the misstatement immediately. 

Ty, I am re-reading your post. My info on LHO's media appearances was just informational, and a direct answer to your question. I didn't mean to suggest that Ruby knew LHO from those appearances, just that someone could argue that point. I agree that it is unlikely that Ruby was spending the hours since the assassination trying to commit such details of LHO's background to memory, and would feel informed enough to correct the Police spokesperson.

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

The priest's name is Walter J. McChann. The source is Robert Blakey's book "Fatal Hour", page 198.

9 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

You have to admit, that is a bit of a reach. Whether Ruby knew LHO or not, you are proposing that he remembered the exact name of his committee, which he may or may not have heard months previously. And he had the presence of mind to correct the misstatement immediately. 

Absolutely. I finished my thought ((edited it) since your post.

22 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

James McCord Jr. Was a CIA officer in charge of operations targeting the FPCC.

"McCord worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1961, and under his direction, a counter-intelligence program was launched against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee." (Wikipedia; Oswald and the CIA by John Newman p.138)"

 

 

 

I think it's funny how Paul always manages to have the opposite affect of his attempts at Debunking Ruth Paine and CIA complicity. I am not a CIA  did-it CT, and I would dismiss Ruth as personally uninteresting to me. But Paul's characterization and arguments are so easily gutted that in debating him, both the CIA and Ruth become much more clearly culpable.

2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

James,

Regarding the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine wrote the "Walker Letter" -- why didn't the Warren Commission prosecute that accusation? 

In your CIA-did-it CT, it's because Ruth Paine was a CIA agent, and the WC was protecting her.   But that's just cloak-and-dagger fiction.

The fact is that the Warren Commission tossed it out of court because it was a mistake -- an erroneous report by the Secret Service.  

The Secret Service ate their words, and they never spoke of it again.  You sort of forget that important, historical fact.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Can you demonstrate that with testimony or evidence?

10 minutes ago, Ty Carpenter said:

What about Ruby's correction/exclamation at the late night press gathering that LHO was a member of the FPCC. How would he know that?  To me, that reeks of some type of connection between Ruby and N.O. folks. 

LHO was on TV and radio shows in 1963, claiming his position as secretary of the NOLA chapter of the FPCC. Some of those broatcasts were on the air in Dallas. Your  point is still valid. Ruby would not have had that tid bit ready to correct the DPD spokesman if he was not more intimately familiar with LHO and his relationship to the FPCC.

10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

If we set aside Jim Garrison's uncovering of Guy Banister at the heart of Oswald's FPCC campaign in New Orleans, we cannot connect all the dots, IMHO.

But I'll meet you half-way with a challenge.  Let's say (arguendo) that Guy Banister was OK with JFK -- would you agree that:

1.  Guy Banister wanted to kill Fidel Castro?

2.  That the FPCC in New Orleans was 100% Fake?

3.  That the FPCC in New Orleans was Guy Banister's brain-child?

4.  That Guy Banister manipulated Oswald to pretend to be the Officer of this Fake FPCC by newspaper, police report, radio and TV?

If so, then to what end?  What did Lee Harvey Oswald do in New Orleans in the interest of the Anti-Castro forces by pretending to be an FPCC Officer?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

James McCord Jr. Was a CIA officer in charge of operations targeting the FPCC.

"McCord worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1961, and under his direction, a counter-intelligence program was launched against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee." (Wikipedia; Oswald and the CIA by John Newman p.138)"

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

Your skepticism is healthy, but you should also offer a counter-scenario.  I don't see one.

If the New Orleans Fake FPCC was not intended to lead to the Mexico City effort to get into Cuba -- then WHAT WAS IT USED FOR?

If the Mexico City effort to get into Cuba was not intended to further sheep-dip LHO as a KGB agent -- then WHAT WAS IT USED FOR?

My theory connects the dots (without using the old and worn-out CIA-did-it CT).

You have a healthy skepticism -- but your outcome doesn't connect any dots that I can see.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

See below...

8 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Thanks, yes I mean Bannister and I fixed it, I think.  

After editing, you have to click "edit post". It's a little odd, it makes you think you are going to do another edit.

3 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

find little evidence Garrison is a prime mover anywhere,

I assume that you meant "Bannister".

To admins and mods. I am walking away from this. 

11 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul's claim is that LHO was trying to go to Cuba to kill Castro. He claims that LHO was in Mexico City with his rifle. He claims that LHO was trying to obtain an "instant visa". The documentation shows that LHO was trying to obtain a Transit Visa to Russia, via Cuba. Paul claims that Guy Bannister and (I believe) David Atlee Phillips "wanted LHO to kill Castro".

I will try to find the posts from Paul that lay this out.

Jason, here is the a link to a thread that has the whole Transit vs. Instant visa thing laid-out. It is incoherent now. You can see that Paul was editing his responses for up to 4 days after he originally posted.

On 5/19/2017 at 8:53 PM, Michael Clark said:

Paul, we posted simultaneously.

 

Paul,

Post anything that uses the wod "instant"., in the record.

I am making this progressively easier for you.

Cheers,

Michael

2 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Ok, so we're on the same page that the Mexican documents we have today don't do much to connect Oswald with the assassination, be it as patsy or otherwise.  IMO the whole strange Mexico tale has no reasonable connection to the assassination we can rationally discern unless you start with the idea that everything Oswald does is a puppet stringed dance towards one day being the fall guy.   To me, we have little evidence that Mexico is anything but another round of enhancing Oswald's legend as a committed communist and Castro disciple.   I just looked up a few details in Mary Ferrell's chronology and see that "LHO"used a birth certificate to cross the border in Laredo....even though he received a quick passport over the summer and would've needed a passport to obtain a visa. hmmmm...

As to your point that the New Orleans cell instigates the Oswald-as-patsy component of the conspiracy, ok, fine.   I don't want to argue much.   You may be right and I'll be thinking about that today.   However, couldn't your evidence in this point be equally supportive of Oswald-as-yet-another cog in all the Cuban schemes?  What your specific evidence that Oswald is tied to Kennedy's death via the New Orleans guys and not instead tied into the anti-Castro hysteria and intrigue?

 

Jason

Paul's claim is that LHO was trying to go to Cuba to kill Castro. He claims that LHO was in Mexico City with his rifle. He claims that LHO was trying to obtain an "instant visa". The documentation shows that LHO was trying to obtain a Transit Visa to Russia, via Cuba. Paul claims that Guy Bannister and (I believe) David Atlee Phillips "wanted LHO to kill Castro".

I will try to find the posts from Paul that lay this out.

2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

James,

There's that Probe Magazine nonsense again -- that because the Paines were wealthy, therefore they had to be CIA killers.

You've had 25 years to prove your CIA-did-it case, James.   Just give it up.

Try recalling the words of Ernest Hemingway -- "the rich are different than you and me."

Sincerely,
--Paul Trejo

I have long grown tired of Paul Trejo's conceited fallacy that anyone finding fault with Ruth Paine is doing so because she is rich, and the fault finder is poor and envious.

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

It's in the Warren Commission volumes, Michael.

The clearest thing in the world here is that you've never read it.  Do you read anything except the Internet?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, I don't send people off to find something in a massive ducument like the WCR. I provide the quote. If I can't take the time to provide the quote I qualify my answer with an "IIRC" or similar statement. Your mode is disrespectful.

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Chris,

It's not my count.   I said over 5,000 questions, not 6,000.  The actual number is 5,236 questions.

It's still not my own count -- I believe Walt Brown was the first to count  them. 

The next most questions asked were to Marina Oswald, at 2,615.  So, really, nobody else was even close.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, incorrect, Larry Crafard comes in second to Ruth Paine.

19 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

she received a Divine Calling to learn the Russian language

8 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Gene,

I find utterly no evidence for this claim.  It's not the first I've heard of it, of course, but if you're going to repeat this serious charge, you should at least produce some primary document about it, right?

More later...

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Says the guy who seldom provides quotes and citations for the myths that he perpetuates.

Juts a couple points, for now.

-------I want to suggest that Ruth Paine gets attention, scrutiny and black eyes here, on this forum, that are significantly out of proportion to any role she had. Paul Trejo is to thank for that because of his zealous, over-the-top insistence on her saintliness. We end up spending so much effort in refuting Paul's folly that we dig deeper and look harder and scrutinize he story more than it deserves. Paul's zealotry has the opposite effect that he indents.

------- If Veciana met LHO and DAP, as I believe they did, in early September, that would point to LHO's involvement in the plot, from that time at least. This timeframe agrees with Gene's analysis, above.