George Sawtelle

Roger I agree. I call the "faction within the organization" a rogue unit operating outside the approval of the CIA.

Michael I note your respect of Plumlee. I share that respect also. The man came forward`at great risk to himself to provide some very valuable information.

David Except that Dulles was not CIA at the time of the assassination. Helms definitely knew about the plot but he stayed out of it. He had to have known where his star employee was`when he was absent from his office and what he was doing. But I agree with you. Dulles and Phillips were the main players in the assassination.

Jim Thanks for the advice. I've always believed that proof is what one can prove in court and that proof trumps evidence.

Ray I've read at least two different stories regarding the stretcher. Your's is a third. Sorry but I don't believe either of them.

Ray JFK was in the EOR, the door of which opened up to the hallway where stretcher "B" was located. Stretcher "B" was used to bring in Kennedy from the limo. Before you ask me who said stretcher "B" was used to bring in Kennedy, the answer is ... I did.

Ron The CIA had no role in the assassination. They gathered together three teams and briefed them on what to look for, which means they took the threat as credible. If the CIA sat on this information and did nothing and word leaked out after the assassination that the CIA had been informed by Texas informants and Cubans fingers would have been pointing at them. I believe the CIA knew in general what was going down in Dallas but they chose to stay out of it.

Brian Tosh said there was no urgency to stop the assassination simply because Kennedy's life had been threatened many times and nothing happened. According to Tosh, the CIA received information about the assassination attempt in Dallas from informants in Texas and two Cubans who tried to assassinate Kennedy in Tampa. Tosh and his team were briefed on 20 Nov 1963 and took the news nonchalantly. So there was no need to change the parade route. I'm sure the Secret Service knew of the threat.

I've not read much critique on the veracity of Tosh Plumlee's account of an abort team in Dealey Plaza the time and day of the assassination. I take that to mean most people familiar with Plumlee's account believe him. He said the CIA had flown in a team to stop the assassination. He was the co-pilot who piloted the plane which carried the abort team. If the CIA planned and executed the assassination they would have known who the snipers were and where they were located. Their agents and/or handlers would have been in radio contact with them. If the CIA wanted to stop the assassination, they only needed to contact the snipers and ask them to stand down before the snipers were in place. Now it's possible a particular section of the CIA planned and executed the assassination without the knowledge of the director or supervisors of other CIA sections. If this is the case the assassination would not fall under the auspices of the CIA. The section responsible would be considered a rogue unit within the agency.

Andrej The SBT and the magic bullet and the discussion of the validity of the theory has taken center stage and the shot to Kennedy's back is all but forgotten. This could be by design or it could be the SBT is much more interesting to study. If one was to take off one's layman hat and put on his mathematics hat one would see the folly of the SBT. In reality the SBT defies logic and science and it should be dismissed without prejudice. But we are left with the bullet found on Kennedy's stretcher. Where does it fit within the puzzle called the JFK assassination. I say it fits in as the bullet that caused Kennedy's back wound and realizing that it does fit there it becomes a normal bullet, no more magic. And then realizing that the bullet was tested to have been used in CE 169, there is only one explanation. The sniper in the Dal Tex building must have used CE 169 in the assasination. No way did the sniper on the sixth floor TSBD use CE 169 or any other rifle to shoot Kennedy in the back.

Ray It's in the third link. jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html Below the diagram drawn by Tomlinson is an interview. He states in the last sentence of the interview that he found the bullet on stretcher "B". Stretcher "B" is the stretcher in which Kennedy was on when he was taken into the hospital. Stretcher "A" was used for Connally. Read it carefully.

Ray Do an internet search using the words Tomlinson, bullet found on stretcher and JFK assassination. I've included several internet articles I read that may interest you. www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical.htm 22november1963.org.uk/ce-399-magic-bullet-planted-or-genuine jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html The first two articles discuss chain of possession while the last one discusses Tomlinson finding the bullet on stretcher 'B', which was Kennedy's stretcher. I hope this answers your question. If not ask again.

Michael IOWS, the bullet was planted. It wasn't planted on the stretcher, but it's basically the same thing. Here again why would anyone plant a bullet without knowing the extent of the injuries to either man. I believe the plotters knew the significance of the find when they learned the bullet had been recovered from Kennedy's stretcher. They went into overdrive to descredit the find and thus we have a mountain of testimony regarding the authenticity of the bullet. The plotters decided it was more expedient to exchange rifles than exchange bullets, not knowing how to deform the bullet without knowing the injuries to either man.

Andrej Yes I use the word ''if'' but I come to a definite conclusion. You have a choice ... either the pristine bullet injured both Kennedy and Connally or it injured Kennedy only. You avoided the question but choose to throw up a smokescreen by saying I used too many ''if's''. One can fake a date but not a signature? If the date is faked the signature could be faked also.

Ray I thought I made that clear in the post above.

Andrej Thanks for your reply. Now I understand where you and I defer. Lets assume that most high powered rifles have a muzzle velocity of about 2200 ft/sec. I think you would agree that the Carcano had a muzzle velocity the same as a high powered rifle. Let's further assume that the ammunition was homemade and was not packed properly. As a result the bullet misfired and did not achieve muzzle velocity. If a shooter is about 200 ft from JFK and aims for his head but the bullet drops and hits Kennedy in the back 6 inches below his shoulder one could safely assume that a bullet that dropped 8 - 10 inches within 200 ft did not reach muzzle velocity. It was well below muzzle velocity as it left the rifle barrel. We also assume that the sound of the shot was somewhat attenuated. It was not as loud as a normal rifle shot. And that is the reason why BBN the acoustics experts said they only detected 4 echoes, way below the normal 11 echoes characteristic for Dealey Plaza. Thus taking into account the low muzzle velocity and the sound attenuation we indeed have a misfire. And the misfire would account for the bullet only entering Kennedy's back 2 inches. A man by the name of Thompson found a bullet on Kennedy's stretcher. No bullet was found on Connally's stretcher. No bullet fell out of Connally's body while he was being attended in the hospital. A doctor at Parkland had said that the bullet that caused the injuries to Connally had lodged in his left calf. No one planted a bullet simply because no one knew the extent of the injuries to Kennedy or Connally. It was much too early to know. Some people believe that a bullet was planted by how could anyone be so dumb as to plant a bullet not knowing the extent of the injuries. But if someone is that dumb and does plant a bullet he'll plant a bullet that is deformed, not a bullet that appears to be pristine. So the pristine bullet was the bullet found on Kennedy's stretcher. Now if I told you that the pristine bullet accounted for the back and throat injuries to Kennedy and all the injuries to Connally would you believe me. Or would you believe me if I said the pristine bullet caused the injury to Kennedy's back. Now in regard to Day's signature, is there a date near Day's signature. All signatures or initials must be accompanied by a date. If no date then the signature or initial is suspect. If no date, the signature could have been placed on the butt after the fact by anyone. It's just common sense that a date is necessary.

Andrej I've tried to explain why the switch of rifles but you don't understand or maybe you don't believe JFK was shot in his back as the limo made the turn from Houston onto Elm. There is evidence which proves JFK was shot in the back the wound about 6 inches below his shoulder. 1) wound in the back (the wound is not related to the SBT) which did not traverse JFK's body. The bullet wound was only 1 1/2 - 2 inches deep 2) blur analysis Zapruder jiggled his camera at Z - 156, which means a loud noise startled him immediately after the limo made the turn 3) acoustics analysis indicates a gun/rifle shot near the point where the limo turns onto Elm. This shot registers only four echoes, which means it was not as loud as a rifle shot but it was loud enough to startle Zapruder. The shot was probably a misfire. 4) a bullet was found on JFK's stretcher at Parkland Hospital The plotters thought the Dal Tex sniper couldn't miss. The man who fired the shot was probably a hitman with experience killing people. He was located relatively close to the motorcade as it turned onto Elm. But eventhough they thought he couldn't miss they had two snipers waiting to shoot JFK in case he did miss JFK's head. This gives you an idea of the mentality of the planner. He left nothing to chance, he covered all contingencies and you witness that type of mentality as you study the plot. If the shooting had followed the plan, JFK is shot in the head and the sixth floor sniper fires off two rounds. The sixth floor sniper makes himself visible while the Dal Tex sniper is well hidden and no one sees him. Law enforcement says three shots were fired from the sixth floor TSBD. Immediately after the assassination I don't believe the DPD had time to do any tests on the Mannlicher Carcano found in the TSBD sixth floor. The FBI requested the DPD to allow the Mannlicher Carcano to be sent to the FBI lab for a check of prints. At the time the FBI didn't check the lead bullet analysis since the FBI had not collected all the rounds fired at the president. BTW, the FBI lab replied that no prints of value had been found on the Mannlicher Carcano. And now I come to the key point that indicates the Mannlicher Carcano found on the sixth floor is not CE 139. The bullet found on the JFK's stretcher was determined by the FBI to have been fired using CE - 139. The sniper on the sixth floor could not have fired the round that hit JFK in the back. Located between the sixth floor sniper and the limo as the limo made the turn onto Elm was an oak tree. The sniper could not see JFK. Also JFK's back was turned away from the sixth floor sniper at that point. Only the sniper in the Dal Tex building could have hit Kennedy in the back. And thus he had to have used CE 139. But if you only have the Mannlicher Carcano that was found on the sixth floor and you start running tests you'll quickly come to the conclusion that the rifle found on the sixth floor was not used in the assassination. And that is the reason the switch was made.

Ashton The CIA, as an agency, was not involved in the assassination of JFK. The assassination was the work of Allen Dulles, CIA agents who were on loan to him, CIA contract agents on loan to him, other paid individuals, mafia hitmen and elements of the military. The military was under orders from Dwight Eisenhower since Dulles had no power over the military. However the CIA as an agency did help in the cover up of the assassination to protect the new illegal government and the legacies of Eisenhower and Dulles. By protecting Dulles the CIA was also protecting those agents on loan to the assassination.

Andrej The plotters sold the story that there was only one shooter and 1) the shooter fired from the sixth floor southeast window 2) the shooter used a Mannlicker Carcano 3) the rifle found on the sixth floor was the rifle used in the assassination 4) the shooter fired only three shots In reality there were multiple shooters who together with the sixth floor shooter fired multiple rounds. One of the shooters was located in the Del Tex Building. The Dal Tex shooter has the easiest shot. He is the closest to the motorcade as the motorcade turns from Houston onto Elm. He aims for JFK's head and if he shoots JFK in the head ballgame over. The Dal Tex shooter is so well hidden that no one sees him. The sixth floor shooter makes himself noticeable then fires off two more shots. Therefore we have one shooter and he is shooting from the sixth floor TSBD and he fired three shots, the first of which hit JFK in the head. If the bullet that hits JFK in the head fragments no problem. The bullet is very difficult to trace back to the rifle. But if the bullet is deformed and stays relatively in tact, the bullet may be traced back to the rifle. To cover this contingency the Dal Tex shooter must use the Carcano CE 139. However the plans of mice and men often run astray and in this case it's more of the same. CE 139 misfires and JFK is hit in the back instead of the head. The sixth floor shooter carries out his part, makes himself noticeable and fires three shots. And the other two shooters hiding in the overhanging branches of the trees on the grassy knoll must fire because they realize JFK has not been hit in the head. The bullet that hit JFK in the back is in good shape. It is recovered from the stretcher on which hospital personnel carried JFK into the hospital. It will be taken to the FBI lab later and determined to have been fired by CE 139. But there remains one little problem. The Carcano planted on the sixth floor TSBD was not fired. So the FBI takes the rifle found on the sixth floor and says it wants to check for prints and switches CE 139, which has been taken from the Dal Tex shooter by the plotters and given to the FBI, for the Carcano that was found on the sixth floor. The plotters knew the Dal Tex shooter failed. They had to ''eliminate'' his shot since JFK's back shot was not part of the plan. They did this by selling the story that the first shot, the shot from the Dal Tex building, was a motorcycle backfire and the wound in JFK's back was due to the ridiculous SBT. The plotters knew on the day of the assassination what to look for on the Zapruder film. So eventhough it was difficult to see what happened viewing the film (the film was black and white and not very clear) the plotters knew the number of shooters, their locations and the number of shots fired. They knew JFK had been hit in the back and in the throat by different shooters, and not by the shooter on the sixth floor TSBD. They were good at covering most of the bases, but they did not cover all of them. There is good reason why most americans do not believe the official government story on the assassination.

Andrej The rifle found on the sixth floor was sent to Wash DC on 23 Nov 1963 to check for prints (supposedly). A Carcano was sent to Wash and a Carcano was sent back to Dallas the next day. When one tries to determine what was sent and what was sent back one must look at all the evidence. With regard to the rifle, the related evidence is the Zapruder film, the bullet lead analysis, the acoustics analysis, and blur analysis. It's pretty clear from the evidence that JFK was shot in the back. The bullet did not go through his body or deep into his body, it went in only about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. I believe it fell out of JKF's body during resuscitation efforts while JFK was still on the stretcher. This is the so-called pristine bullet. This bullet was determined to have been fired from the Carcano to the exclusion of all other rifles. But how could that be? If the Carcano, CE139, was on the sixth floor it could not have been used to fire a shot into JFK's back because the limo was not visible from the sixth floor window since there was a tree blocking the view. So it must be that the Carcano, CE 139, was in the Del Tex Building when someone fired it and hit JFK in the back. And thus before the FBI sent the Carcano back they exchanged the Carcano found on the sixth floor with the a Carcano, CE 139, that was used in the assassination. And that is why there is so much controversy surrounding the rifle. David Josephs is correct. That rifle that was found in the TSBD sixth floor is not the rifle that is in the National Archives.

Michael Excerpts from earlier interviews were included in interviews in the 70's. Don't you find it strange that Craig did not mention "mauser on the barrel" in the Ganfoldo interview. Craig had backed off "mauser on the barrel" statement. Weitzman had indicated he was mistaken earlier about the mauser. I think it was an honest mistake by Weitzman and Craig. Craig had faith in Weiztman's knowledge of rifles and embellished his statement which is only human.

Michael Refer to www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft7KGYRB6sg Underneath the video it is written ... This is a complete interview with Roger Craig which some excerpts are in Mark Lane's Men in Dallas.

Michael The Lane video probably was made in 1974, but when was the interview of Craig and Carle? I think that interview took place before Craig's book was published, sometime in 1971. I could be wrong however.

Michael Thank you for the video. IDK, Lane's voice must have changed. It appears the voice of the interviewer is other than Lane's. The video of Craig is from another time, not 1974.

Just a heads up Craig backed off of his claim that he saw mauser on the barrel in an interview (LA Free Press) in 1968 and in his book "When they kill the President" of 1971. Earlier Wietzman said he made a mistake when he identified the rifle as a mauser. The above is not a rebuttal of David's or Alberto's work. I've not read David's article on the rifle and I'm not sure of Alberto's claim, mainly because my computer is an old one and I haven't been able to download all the evidence presented by Alberto.