George Sawtelle

Cliff Do you no when Dulles developed Alzheimers? Is it the same type of Alzheimers that Reagan developed after he left the presidency?

Ray M Eyewitness testimony is evidence.

I think back to the movie "Platoon". A young grunt looks over the shoulder of another grunt as he writes a letter to his girlfriend. The grunt looking over the shoulder says ... it's not "deer" it's "dear", man you dumb. The grunt doing the writing says ... " she don't read no how". Well we don't read no how. We dumb and Allen Dulles and the WC lawyers are banking on that so they can lead around by the nose and get us to believe anything.

The world according to Ray M. Okay. Only in your world logic = guess. You are in over your head.

Ray If you don't know, how do you know I'm guessing. For all you know I may be telling the truth. IOWS, I know the truth and therefore I know what is false. Or, I don't know the truth and therefore I don't know what is false. Tomlinson said the bullet he found came from Stretcher "B". Kennedy was on a stretcher when he was taken into the EOR, which opened up to the hallway where the stretcher was located. The stretcher was located opposite the EOR door but near the door according to Tomlinson who drew a sketch showing the stretcher and the door to the EOR. Also, Tomlinson said he brought down Connally's stretcher from an EOR one floor above and he placed it near the stretcher that was already there, which is Stretcher "B". So Connally's stretcher was removed from the EOR where Connally was attended it is only logical to say that Kennedy's stretcher was removed from the EOR were Kennedy was attended by the doctors and nurses. Therefore I logically concluded that stretcher "B" was Kennedy's stretcher and the bullet was found on his stretcher. Tell me about the guessing.

Ray With regard to the stretcher magic bullet you allude to not guessing and not having an opinion. So you must base your knowledge on the subject on evidence. Since you say I'm guessing then you must know the facts. Because how can you say I'm guessing if you didn't know the facts. But you've provided nothing except criticism. I'm here to try to find the truth, not one up somebody. We all seek the truth but apparently there are those who think this forum is all about competition. From what I've read of your posts you've not solved anything. No one has a corner on the truth, lest of all me. And that goes for you also.

Ron E I gave you my answer. You have a right not to believe what I gave you. Just leave it at that.

Ron E Well you seemed to want an answer about why the CIA didn't do what they could have done stopping the assassination because you mentioned it in at least two of your posts.

Ray You go by what people tell you is evidence. The rest is your opinion.

Ray No problem. We had a good discussion. You didn't convince me and I didn't convince you. You have a right to your opinion.

Ron E I provided my reasoning for Files being a last minute addition to the assassination. Apparently you saw the word Files and you stopped reading. BTW Files is the only shooter who didn't get a secret service badge. This could be because he was a last minute replacement or by design of the plotters. I choose to believe it was by design of the plotters. I believe Files was a secondary patsy. If Oswald had escaped Dallas, a possiblity the plotters took into account IMO, they had Files to serve as a patsy in case one was needed immediately. The plotters wanted to capture someone asap to avoid riots in the streets. The plotters always had a alternative to the plan. They ran the assassination that way.

Roger Chauncy Holt was a master forger who worked for the Lansky syndicate. He provided the badges. BTW Holt was one of the tramps taken off a boxcar in the RR yard behind the TSBD the day of the assassination. So we know he was there.

Michael I know you are only trying to help, so thanks but I don't need it. I don't let anyone do my thinking for me. If someone says something and it appears to be logical I might go with it .Letting someone do the thinking for you will get you into situations that will be difficult from which to extricate. A good example is the Eaglesham article on Files using a drawing from Remington, drawing No. 7. Take the time and go back and read that thread. I smashed Eaglesham's conclusion to bits. Why, because I don't let someone do the thinking for me. With regard to Files, research on him involves listening to tapes. There really isn't much else. But if you or anyone has other info on Files please provide it. I'm open to something is out there on Files that may prove me all wet. I didn't speculate about the abort team. Plumlee mentions it and Files backs him up. I didn't speculate about Roselli, he was part of an assassination team and part of the abort team. I didn't speculate about Roselli going to Nicoletti and asking him to abort the assassination because that came from Files and I believe him. I didn't speculate about Roselli not telling the CIA about Nicoletti's hit team because it's common sense that he would not want to get his friends arrested, not to mention himself killed. I didn't speculate about the badges because that came from Files and I believe him. The badges are a very importqant clue to Files being in Dealey Plaza. I can go on and on but I think you understand. Folks on this forum don't read my posts on Files. They see the word Files and it turns them off and they stop reading. They have this pre conceived idea that Files is not credible. Where does this idea come from I don't know. It may come from researchers who don't believe Files for various reasons and the rest let the researchers do the thinking for them.

Ray Stretcher "B" was outside the EOR in which Kennedy was in. I believe Kennedy was taken into the EOR on that stretcher and placed on an operating table. The stretcher was then rinsed off by an orderly and placed outside in the hallway. The bullet had worked itself loose from Kennedy's wound while nurses and doctors tried to resuscitate him as he was being taken into the hospital. The fact that the bullet was found on that stretcher means Kennedy was on that stretcher. The stretcher becomes important because of the bullet. Debate about the stretcher without the bullet causes us to veer off track. The Warren Commission lawyers very skillfully switched the debate to who was on the stretcher because they didn't want to place the bullet on stretcher "B". They wanted us to believe the bullet fell out of Connally's leg. The simplest explanation is usually the truth. Tomlinson found the bullet on stretcher "B" so Kennedy had to be on that stretcher.

Ron E You asked a question, I just tried to answer it. Maybe you didn't really want an answer or you don't understand. The answer must involve Roselli and Files, since it was Files who said it was Roselli who tried to get Nicoletti to call off the assassination. In my last 3-4 post on Files, I tried to show you that Files was speaking the truth about what he knows, hoping what he said about Roselli would ring true to you. Apparently your mind is closed but that's okay you are entitled to your opinion.

Ron E More information that Files is telling the truth, About half way through his interview with Marrs Files says how Roselli received the fake secret service badges from Ruby at a pancake house in Ft Worth. Recall that a man seen behind the picket fence was asked by a policeman to identify himself and he showed the policeman a secret service badge. The badges received by Roselli were probably for Nicoletti and his team. Files says that Nicoletti gave him some items before he was killed. One of the items he gave him was a secret service badge. Files mentions the badges half way through the interview and at the end of the same interview he mentions the badge that Nicoletti gave him. It would be impossible for Files to think that fast and mention the two occurences in the same interview ... Files discusses many issues between the mention of the badges ... but for this to be Files's attempt to verify his account is quite a stretch. The badge ties Nicoletti to Dealey Plaza and it also ties Files to Nicoletti the day of the assassination.

Ron E Roselli was in a very awkward and dangerous position. If he told the CIA what he knew his mafia associates would be arrested before the assassination attempt. To keep faith with the CIA Roselli tried to stop it the best way he knew how and that was to go directly to Nicoletti. If he didn't show in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination the mafia would have gunned him down asap.

Ron E No one had the entire story about the assassination on the day of the assassination. The only individual who knew who was in the briefing room when the CIA briefed the abort teams that an attempt on Kennedy's was a 100% possibility was Roselli. But Roselli didn't know who was managing the assassination or how many assassination teams were involved and their locations.

Ron E The CIA had information that Kennedy was to be hit in Dallas. It was credible so they gathered together several abort teams. But the CIA was not 100% sure that there would be an attempt on Kennedy's life. Kennedy had been threatened many times in the past and nothing had happened. Roselli was made part of an abort team however the CIA did not know he was also part of an assassination team. Roselli could't divulge that he was part of an assassination team since his mafia associates might be arrested. So when Roselli arrived in Dallas the morning of the assassination he told Nicoletti to call off the assassination. Nicoletti told him he would call it off if his boss informed him to call it off. Roselli didn't know who was managing the assassination. All he knew was he was to be part of Nicoletti's assassination team.

David I believe James Files. 1) He never thought he would come out but a mafia made man put his name "out on front street" so that in his mind allowed him to talk about the Kennedy assassination. 2) The grassy knoll shooter was still alive when he came out. So to cover for him, he said he shot Kennedy in the head. He said he would never give anybody up. 3) He slipped when in an interview he said he had to fire in a hurry because the limo was approaching the freeway sign. That means he was the shooter who shot Kennedy in the throat. 4) Nicoletti left the getaway vehicle at a gas station and Files proceeded alone in the vehicle until he reached his hotel. A little while later a friend visited and tried to get Files to hide a pistol, which the man said was used to shoot Tippit. Someone was`trying to set him up at that point. Now it makes sense why the mafia wanted him to be a shooter in the assassination. I could't believe that the mafia, Giancano no less, would allow a man in his early twenties, who had little or no history of being a hitman, participate. The mafia and the plotters were setting him up and they could careless about him being killed. When Oswald was captured, killed and railroaded Files was`off the hook. To this day I don't think he realizes he came close to becoming a patsy. 5) Although the FBI said Files was not credible, a mafia lawyer visited him in prison, according to Files, and told him " to lay down by his doggie bone and keep quiet". Why would anyone knowing the danger come out and say what he said about the assassination. Those are some of he reasons why I believe Files. Files, like Baker, can't be expected to remember every little detail about what happened 35 years ago. It's remarkable that they remember what they do remember and what they remember is significant. The older one gets the more they forget. But some folks are waiting with anxiety and happiness knowing those two are bound to slip up. They wait and then they get on the internet and say ... well so and so said this and that and they conclude he or she is not credible. It's ridiculous.

David According to James Files, Rosselli told Nicoletti that the attempt to kill Kennedy had to be stopped. Nicoletti told Rosselli he would have to hear it from his boss. If his boss did not tell him to stop the assassination he was going forward. Files backs up what Plumlee said about the abort team. Roselli is a CIA contract agent, part of the assassination team and part of the abort team. I believe the CIA thought Roselli carried a lot of weight with Nicoletti but apparently not enough. The mafia sent the best hitmen from Chicago and New Orleans. Files, IMO, was there to serve as a second patsy but of course he didn't know it. At the last minute he became one of the shooters. If somehow Oswald escaped Dallas and a patsy was needed immediately, they had Files.

Michael The CIA made a genuine effort to stop the assassination. This wasn't about deniability.

Ron Your reason and my reason for the CIA not wanting to stop the assassination are different. Correct if I'm wrong, you believe the CIA wouldn't want to stop the assassination because they want Kennedy to be killed. My belief on based on the hypothetical that if the CIA planned the assassination they wouldn't want to stop it. But based on what Plumlee and other informants said the CIA did want to stop the assassination. Plumlee saying what he said was not an attempt by the CIA to provide deniability later on. But there was one CIA agent who was part of an assassination team and also part of the abort team. He tried to stop it but failed. So the CIA did make a genuine effort to stop it.

Ron Back to Plumlee. If the CIA planned the assassination why would it all of a sudden decide to stop it. The abort teams were formed two days before the assassination.Plenty of time to call it off or change the parade route. The fact that the CIA tried to stop the assassination the way Plumlee indicated leads me to believe the CIA as an agency was out of the loop. Rosselli tried to stop it but he arrived much too late. According to Plumlee the abort teams arrived as the motocade was approaching Dealey Plaza. Based on an account that I believe is credible Nicoletti who was the sniper in the Dal Tex building said he would stop if he got confirmation from his boss in Chicago.The fact that Plumlee said there were men from organized crime on the abort teams lends credibility that organized crime figures were involved in the assassination. This attempt to abort as outlined by Plumlee was a real attempt to stop the assassination based on information from Texas informants and two Cubans who had previously tried to kill Kennedy.

Ron It's much too risky for the agency to murder a president. The CIA would be the prime suspect in the assassination. Even today without proof the CIA is the culprit. Getting rid of a president of the USA would be handled differently and has been handled differently in the past. If an ex-director of the CIA asked for help I'm sure the agency would comply. The agency would keep it's collective mouth shut and look the other way.