George Sawtelle

Jim Thank you. The last drawing of Armstrong´s report indicates the elevator accesses the basement through 4th floor. The lettering is in blue. However if there is a misprint concerning the basement the shooter could still access the basement through the shaft under the elevator. There must be an access from the basement to the elevator shaft to work on equipment. The shooter could use the vent in the ceiling of the elevator climb on to the roof of the elevator and down the ladder to the shaft under the elevator. Then use the access to get into the basement. There is absolutely no need for the shooter to leave the passenger elevator onto the second floor, especially with the other Oswald possibly in the building. Too much risk the plan blows up. Of course I believe Baker´s and Trully´s testimony about meeting Oswald is fake. Oswald did not need to rush down the stairs to get to the lunchroom. He worked in the building and could have blended in on any of the bottom floors without arousing suspicion, assuming he was the shooter as per the Warren Commission.

Jim Very astute observation. It sure does appear to be consciousness of guilt. Just like ... that little Kennedy, he thought he was a god. He despised JFK but JFK never suspected it. Kennedy thought he had nothing to worry about with Dulles because he thought Dulles to be a bumbling idiot. Just like Kennedy´s thoughts on the joint-chiefs-of-staff with all their fruit salad on their shirt. Dulles played the fool in front of Kennedy and it threw off Kennedy. It cost him. Even RFK was fooled by Dulles. I was surprised to hear of their meetings where Dulles briefed RFK on the findings of the WC.

Jim Thank you. The last diagram showing the first floor plan indicates that the passenger elevator accessed the basement. The shooter may have left the elevator at the basement level. He then could have reached the first floor using the stairs in the NW corner of the building and left the building through the annex with help from spotters. The two men seen by Baker on the first floor may have been the spotters. BTW, two ¨policemen¨ were on the fire escape after the shooting. They were filmed by Mentesana. Need to correct some of the wording regarding ... no one was seen on the fire escape after the shooting.

Jim Thank you for the report. It´s very possible that the passenger elevator was used by the shooter to get to the sixth floor from the first and vice versa. Armstrong accounted for the help necessary. Great plan on the part of the plotters. I doubt there were multiple shooters on the sixth floor. Multiple shooters means multiple rifles and how does one remove the rifles? Two questions for Armstrong: (1) The explanation of ingress and egress requires that the electricity be turned off and turned on twice. Was the electricity shut off twice within the TSBD? (2) The Oswald look-alike was seen walking towards the front of the building by Mrs. Reid. If anything I would think the Oswald look-alike would be trying to get to the annex to wait for his ride. Since Armstrong believes Truly and Baker met Oswald on the second floor, couldn´t the man Mrs Reid saw be the other Oswald?

Frazier was forced to lie. Oswald never brought the rifle to work that day. The MC was taken up to the sixth floor by one of two fake policemen filmed on the fire escape on 22 Nov 1963 by Mentesana. He left the MC where it was found on the sixth floor and after the shooting walked down the fire escape with the rifle used to shoot Connally. Two fake policemen walked up the fire escape before the motorcade arrived supposedly to provide security. They both carried rifles. One was a shot gun and the other was the MC. The rifle that was used in the assassination by the sixth floor shooter must have been hidden in the building probably on the sixth floor. The above is the likely scenario of how the MC was planted and the rifle used in the shooting was taken out. The Oswald look-alike then left the building using the elevator waiting on the fifth floor, got off on the first floor and hid in the annex. With the help of spotters he walked out of the annex to a rambler that picked him up on Elm.

Cliff The point I was trying to make in the recent posts was there were folks who knew Oswald or knew his family who were afraid they may get caught up in the assassination as accomplices or accessories who gladly, especially after Oswald was killed, gave up info against Oswald. It´s very possible some of the evidence they gave up was tainted or may have been fabricated. Paine and Frazier come to mind. Reading carefully the entire ¨curtain rods¨ issue it could easily be construed that Oswald was railroaded on the issue. Only two witnesses saw him with a brown paper package that was thought to contain the disassembled rifle. Only one TSBD employee saw him enter the building that morning and he thought Oswald did not have a brown paper bag with him. Oswald denied the curtain rod story and said he had his lunch sack with him. It was Frazier and his sister who nailed him on the brown bag. And the night of the assassination Frazier was under pressure from the DPD during interrogation. He knew Oswald had been railroaded and he knew he and sis could be railroaded as well. And prayer man, who I believe was Oswald, was standing next to Frazier on the front steps of the TSBD. Frazier has never acknowledged Oswald on the steps. Frazier still insists Oswald couldn´t have killed Kennedy. I think it´s out of guilt. If Frazier ever comes clean the WC report will fall apart and the HSCA will not be the last investigation.

David Yes how can anyone take a contingency cover-up seriously? How can anyone take Connally as the real target seriously?

David Don´t forget, there had to be a contingency cover-up in case Connally was the target.

Cliff What happened when it was made known that Dulles possibly knew Paine who was helping Oswald and his family? Isn´t that bad enough? Helping and accessory, same same.

Cliff Evidence trumps ¨patsy¨. There is evidence that Dulles hated Kennedy. There is evidence that he had a motive to kill Kennedy. Same goes for Johnson. OTOH, with Oswald no such evidence. Jim With regard to Paine, she was eager to help the case against Oswald fearing that if she didn´t she may get locked up as an accessory. Similar is Buell Frazier. He knew Oswald had been railroaded but he was afraid that he and his sister would be locked up like Oswald if he didn´t cooperate.

Cliff Please edit the box where there is some obvious problems with the wording you attribute to me. Thanks in advance. I agree. There could have been more than one patsy. Sounds like something Phillips would organize. I don´t understand your logic. Here we have Phillips, who was involved in the coup in Guatemala, involved in the coup in Chile, and who may have played a minor roll in the coups in Iran and the Congo, and yet you say he couldn´t have been involved in the coup against Kennedy. How can you ignore all that smoke?

Joe You won´t get any argument out of me.

Cliff If Dulles hired Paine, his acquaintence, as a CIA agent and gave her the Oswald assignment, that would be very stupid on his part. I don´t think he is that dumb. The only logical explanation is that Dulles didn´t know Paine was helping Oswald and his family. And that Phillips didn´t know Paine was a friend of Dulles.

Cliff I take your question to mean ... would Phillips withhold information on Oswald from Dulles since his good friend Ruth Paine was spying on Oswald´s family? If Dulles needed to know about Oswald then of course Phillips would inform him. If he didn´t need to know then he wouldn´t inform him. Paine met Oswald and his wife after he returned from the USSR. If Paine was not a CIA agent, why would it be necessary for Dulles to know about her relationship with Oswald and his family? After Dulles was let go he would be out of touch with his daily CIA activities eventhough he was the defacto leader. He had much more pressing issues to deal with than Oswald. I don´t believe he needed to know about Oswald. Dulles was not the mastermind of the assassination. Phillips was. And since Phiilips was Oswald´s handler, he knew Oswald.

Cliff Doesn´t work that way. Dulles recruited people to help him plan the assassination. He was the CEO. His people did the planning, hired the hitman and the forgers, set up the patsy and all the other tasks needed so that Kennedy was present at the location where he was to be killed. I believe it was David Phillips who planned the assassination. He gave Dulles all the info on the assassination, i.e., number of shooters, number of shots, and their locations in Dealey Plaza and other pertinent data so that Dulles knew what to look for to cover it up. As the Warren Commission progressed, Dulles would do what was necessary to beef up the lone nut theory. If Dulles needed more info he would consult with Phillips. For several months after the assassination the investigation was centered in Wash DC and Dulles was right there. After the report was complete, he made the rounds to defend it. All Dulles needed to pull it off was Phillips, a few contract agents, the backing of the US Army and various resources from the CIA which I believe were made available to him. The CIA, the agency itself, was not involved. They did help Dulles in the cover-up.

Jim They were close but does that make her a CIA agent?

Cliff Maybe Ruth Paine was not and never has been a CIA agent. And maybe Oswald was unknown to Dulles. Paine´s interest in Marina was based on Paine´s religion, which of course was Quaker. At the time the Quaker´s helped people, especially those from foreign countries. Oswald was not an agent of the CIA. He was a contract employee (201 file). There is evidence that his handler was CIA agent David Phillips. I doubt Dulles paid any attention to low level contract agents.

It was Kennedy against the Washington establishment in 1963. Dulles, retired president Eisenhower, stab-in-the-back LBJ, who wanted to stay out of jail, southern folk, joint-chiefs-of staff, CIA, Hoover, right wingers, Rowley and the SS, steel companies, bankers, wall street, anti-Castro Cubans, everybody including the kitchen sink. So when they heard the old man (the devil) will take care of it they kept their mouth shut and waited. Kennedy, except for his brother and a few trusted advisors, was alone. He was isolated only because he worked for peace. Its been near impossible for researchers to break through and get at the truth. In the 60´s it wasn´t only the CIA stonewalling, it was also the influential citizens of Wash DC and their friends in the media who put up a steel curtain against the truth. And 50 plus years later it´s the same The same type of characters are still running our government. The CIA is more powerfull than ever. The president checks with the CIA before he makes a decision on foreign policy. Our pres ignores congress and goes to war egged on by the CIA and neocons. If the pres strays a little by seeking peace with Russia they bring him quickly back in line. Once the CIA begins to demand a greater voice on domestic policy look out. When the truth about the assassination comes out I believe change will come.

There was very little on the assassination in the book ¨ The Brothers¨. Maybe one half page. I found something of a conflict however, regarding Dulles´s where abouts when JFK was murdered. Kinzer says Dulles was at his home at Lloyd Neck but Talbot says he was at the Farm in northern Virginia. It´s possible Dulles was at his home when he learned of the assassination and then traveled to the Farm. IDK

David I think you are 100% correct . We found out through the investigation by Fonzi into the identity of Maurice Bishop that more than one agent used the fake name ¨Maurice Bishop¨ other than David Phillips. Any agent of the CIA could have used the Hidell alias. Well, LNs say it had to be Oswald who ordered the rifle under the alias Hidell because his handwriting is on the order form. What BS. The FBI has agents who make a living studying the habits of forgers from all over the world. They take courses in forgery and as a result they become expert forgers themselves. So if the FBI gives me a document and says it´s so and so who wrote this document or if Gary Mack (God rest his soul) gives me a document and says he got it from the FBI and they say so and so wrote this document I´ll say ... okay thanks and I´ll walk away looking for the nearest trash can. In 1963 the FBI and the CIA had the expertise to forge photos, documents, films, etc you name it. They covered up the investigation. We will never get the truth from them.

Yes I agree. The killers lead the cover-up. They controlled the body. They controlled most of the film, including the Zap film, and the photos taken in Dealey Plaza the day JFK was killed. And they knew where to concentrate their efforts on the Zap film because they knew the number of shooters firing at the president, their location and the number of shots fired during the shooting. So they had a pretty good head start on the cover-up.

Don How long do you think the shooter/secret service man stayed around to prevent cops and people from jumping the fence to look for the shooter? The shooter acted like a SS agent after the shooting. Plus, someone in the motorcade told his officers not to allow the trains to leave the RR yard.

W Tracy That´s all I needed to know. End of argument.

Tommy dearest No I have no opinion on Armstrong´s work because I haven´t read all his work. I´ve read only parts of it. From what I´ve read I think he has done a lot of good work explaining why and how two Oswalds. Other than that I take the fifth.

W Tracy Yes you are correct. But they were isolated. In the case of Dealey Plaza, there were four people who saw an Oswald look alike at the same time. At the same instant. And there was another witness who saw a dark complected man in Dealey Plaza get into a rambler and drive off, sometime before picking up the Oswald look alike. Four eyewitnesses who saw the same thing at the same time. That´s positive proof that what they saw is true.