George Sawtelle

Robert I don´t know how fast the bullet was traveling but I´m sure it wasn´t traveling 2200 ft/sec. Had it been traveling 2200 ft/sec there would have been much more damage to JFK´s body. And of course it would have showed the necessary amount of peaks on the oscilloscope, i.e., the muzzle blast would be as loud as necessary to create enough peaks (echos). Plus air and wind resistance will effect the velocity of the bullet. I would say air resistance alone will slow down the bullet maybe 100 ft/sec. I doubt the shooter knew the round was faulty before he used it. Afterward, I´m sure he knew. The round was weakened probably due to packing of the powder. As a result, the sound was attenuated and it´s effect lessened. Rifles are zeroed in to make sure the rifle sight can be used. If the sight is not zeroed the bullet will not hit the spot where the shooter aims with the sight. Rifles are not normally sited for rounds. I´m sure the rifles used in the assassination of JFK were zeroed in. These guys were not amateurs. Of course it´s necessary to have a suspect and then try to trace the ammunition. But if you don´t have a suspect I would say it is very difficult to trace the ammo. If the round is home made it would be very difficult to trace the bullet back to the shooter even if you have a suspect.

I believe the first shot caused the back wound. It occurred at or about Z-158 based on the blur analysis of Alvarez, Hartmann and Scott. It was loud enough to startle Zapruder. People in the parade thought the first shot sounded like a firecracker or backfire. The acoustical experts said it only registered 4 echos and therefore based on their criteria it was not a rifle shot. However I believe it was a rifle shot except that it was attenuated. The assassin used home made ammunition which is difficult to trace back to the assassin. Since the ammo was faulty the bullet did not travel 2200 ft/sec., more than likely much less than 2200 ft/sec.

Alistair -Paul The subject matter is very interesting. I have something to offer that may shed some light on the reason of Oswald to Russia. I have a friend who was born in Russia whose family immigrated the United States when he was a small child. He told me he learned Russian from his parents but he wasn´t fluent. Anyway one day we got unto the subject of Oswald. He said that while he was in the army stationed in California he was recruited for a voluntary mission in Russia. Only soldiers who spoke russian were recruited. He said they were to be dropped into the russian countryside and make note of all bridges, factories and other economic assets in the area where he was dropped. The US army had very little intelligence on Russia at the time, the late 50s, so this program would bring the US up to date. He thought about joining the operation but decided not to join. He told me he thought Oswald was trained at the same army school in California to do similiar recon.

Jim I would be very surprised if an L-shaped ambush was planned. But I could be wrong. I think the shooters took their positions thinking of the best position to do their firing. It just so happened that it turned out to be a pretty good L-shaped ambush.

Paul The military had to be involved. They had to give their consent. When a coup occurs the military must be on the side of the leaders of the coup or the risk of civil war is heavy. But I do not think that the military initiated the coup. The impersonation of Oswald set up Russia and Cuba. I believe Russia was to be nuked and then Cuba would be invaded. However our civilian government stopped the military from acting against Russia and Cuba and a deal with the military was made whereby an invasion of Vietnam would be supported by the federal government. The military accepted the deal and that is why the Vietnam War.

Paul T Sorry but I can´t go half way with you. I don´t believe Oswald made it to MC and Walker did not kill Kennedy. At this point I think you and I can agree that our government in the form of the CIA, FBI, SS, military and the MSM (paid off) covered up the murder of JFK. The same government that provided evidence of Oswald in MC. How can you justify your belief in the evidence our government provides knowing they covered up the investigation? Hoover was upset that his agency was kept in the dark with regard to the assassination of the president in the early stages of the investigation. To make matters worse rumors were flying around that Oswald was in the employ of the FBI. As a result, Hoover was not a team player. It took Allen Dulles to get Hoover on the same page. If the CIA admitted that they had a 201 file on Oswald they would be admitting that Oswald worked for the CIA, or that he was a contract agent for them. They would never admit that they have a 201 file on Oswald. I´m not familiar with the writings of Simpich. I can´t answer you on what he said or wrote.

Cliff I´m speaking from the perspective of the MSM when I use the term conspiracy theorist. You know the realm of the unreal. If the money is right I´ll write and print whatever you want me to print and write. Trump is right when he talks about fake news and the media but he doesn´t know or he lets on that he doesn´t know that the US government pays the media to fake the news. I´m not as critical as you with regard to JFK researchers. There is a lot of good ones out there and the truth is coming out because of them.The US government coupled with the MSM is extremely powerful. They control everything that is printed. They have unlimited funds to bribe those who don´t initially fall into line. Every man has his price. One doesn´t have to be in the military to understand the mechanics of an L-shaped ambush. All individuals who received combat training know how to set up an L-shaped ambush.

Paul Kennedy had to be killed. (The CIA was on the verge of being eliminated by the president.) And in a way where Castro would be blamed. That is the reason for the impersonation of Oswald in MC. The operation to impersonate Oswald was a military operation. Eisenhower was asked why he didn´t attack Cuba from the start and get rid of the communist menace once and for all. He said he would but he needed a reason to do it. Castro up until that time hadn´t given Eisenhower a reason to take him out. Then Operation Northwoods was invented. To give the US president, other than Kennedy of course, rational to take out Castro. One can say that it was Eisenhower who got the ball rolling on the invention of Operation Northwoods. I believe the military may have provided logistics for the assassination. I don´t think they were involved in the plotting of the assassination. But they certainly were involved in the coverup. I believe the military was ready to do anything they were asked to help the plotters. It´s just that the military wasn´t needed to plan the assassination; the plotters already had who they thought was the best at planning coups.

David I agree. Oswald never made it to MC. After the assassination when Hoover decided not to be a team player the CIA had to fake Oswald in MC or the lone nut theory could not be justified. I believe the military was running an Operation Northwoods caper with Oswald to set up Castro and the Soviet Union as the perpetrators of the assassination. They had decided they could get to Castro by killing Kennedy and blaming Castro. When Hoover blew the whistle on the impersonation the CIA stepped in and faked evidence to place Lee Harvey Oswald in MC. Mystery man is an attempt by Philips to distance himself from Oswald. Mystery man is not part of the military caper.

Cliff According to the media and US government there are no conspiracy factualists. We are all conspiracy theorists. The CIA DID NOT kill President Kennedy. That is the agency itself. He was killed by a group of people lead by an ex-CIA official with help by CIA officials not sanctioned by the CIA at the time of the assassination. I agree with Vincent Salandria.

Jim Ruby was seen in the corridor where Oswald was moved from office to office I guess for interrogation. He was seen at the press conference where Oswald found out he was formally accused of killing Kennedy. Ruby was there to let Oswald know that he was being watched and to keep his mouth shut. The stalking occurred before the North Carolina call and before he said he was a patsy. I´m sure the plotters would not want for Oswald to see the inside of a courtroom. Eventually he would have to be killed. However I doubt they wanted to waste a man to kill him immediately. Threats had been received by the DPD that Oswald would be killed at any time. Because of the threats he was to be moved on a Saturday to another jail since the other jail had better security and on Sunday he was moved at a different hour than was publisized. So the threats were taken seriously. Oswald saying he was part of a conspiracy was extremely troubling to the plotters. It would warrant wasting a man. The wasted man was Ruby.

Paul He wasn´t asked ... are you part of an intelligence operation ... a reporter said he was accused of killing the president. IOWs, he said he was a patsy after being accused of being an assassin. There is a lot of space between an assassin and an intelligence agent, especially an assassin of the president of the United States.

Michael Yes. The back wound was only 1-2 inches deep. It may have tumbled and entered backward. The small dent in the bullet could have been caused by it stricking bone.

There were many people in the US who thought that Oswald was railroaded or was part of a team that shot the president but nothing about conspiracy came out until Oswald was killed. When Oswald said ... I´m just a patsy ... he was actually saying that he was part of a conspiracy. Therefore he could be considered the first conspiracy theorist. Actually the words, I´m just a patsy, sealed his fate. He had to be killed because he was about to crack.

Michael I don´t believe anything the government says about CE399. The government covered up the investigation. Anything they say is suspect and can´t be believed.

Why plant a bullet when the extent of the wounds are not known? Makes no sense. Not even the doctors who first attended Kennedy knew the full extent of his injuries. I believe CE399 fell out of Kennedy´s body as doctors or nurses tried to resuscitate him while he was on a stretcher and moved from the limo to the operating room.

Alistair, I haven´t had a chance to do much research on this subject until last night. In ¨Hear No Evil" on pg 572 Thomas writes ... ¨Half a second later another large amplitude spike is attended immediately by three similar spikes. This pattern had significantly fewer echoes than expected from a rifle shot, where as by contrast each of he succeeding five patterns were trains of 8-17 impulses.¨ Thomas has written several articles that explain the acoustics evidence. I suggest you start with a google search.

There is no doubt the military at all levels supported the coup. The real question or the most important question is who commanded the military to support the coup? You determine who had the power to get the military behind the coup and you have a major component of the plot to assassinate JFK.

Paul The acoustics evidence has not been refuted. If you are interested in the truth, I suggest you read ¨Hear No Evil¨by Don Thomas. He devotes three chapters to the acoustics investigation, entitled ¨Ballastics acoustics¨, ¨The acoustics challenged¨and ¨The acoustics in prime time¨. Every assertion by the so called acoustics experts of the government that the results of BBN´s investigation are false is rebutted by Thomas. The government does not have any scientists who are qualified to challenge the results. Thomas makes it easy for a layman to understand the acoustics ... one needs to have a limited knowledge of statistics, standard deviation, ect., the math is simple. Although only two shooter positions were used (there were four) the results were amazingly accurate and are in agreement with the blur analysis of Alvarez, Hartmann and Scott. BBN concluded there were six candidate shots, one of which was discarded by BBN because (the first shot) did not have the required 11 echo peaks. The other five did have the required number of peaks but Blakely for political reasons discarded one. So that is why the HSCA settled on four.

Martin The fact that the Zapruder film was altered means someone knew the particulars of the plot to kill Kennedy.They/he/she knew how many shots were fired and how many shooters fired on the president in Dealey Plaza. If only a lone nut knew exactly what happened in Dealey Plaza then the film would not have been altered simply because, among other reasons, no one knew what needed to be changed. And there is not need to change the film if a lone nut did the shooting. There is only one individual on the Warren Commission panel of seven distinguished men who was in a position to effect change to not only the Zap film but eye and ear witness testimony, other films, photos, in fact all evidence. There is only one individual on the panel who had a motive to kill the president. There is only one individual who controlled the expertise and the resources to change the Zap film. There is only one individual who knew the intimate details of the plot to kill Kennedy to effect change of the Zap film. And that individual is Allen Dulles.

David The plan is obvious. Three shells meant to be found. The early story that one bullet hit Kennedy in the back. One hlt Connally in the back and one hit Kennedy in the back of the head. Alter the Zapruder film to support three shots. Not only the three men below but the shooter should be deaf also, right? I think the Oswald look-alike was up there. Lee Harvey was downstairs. The acoustics investigation proves a strong correlation between the sw corner of the sixth floor and three shots.

Tom No, my knowledge of computer graphics is limited. Maybe someone can help us.

David It wasn´t the fourth shot after Z-313 it was the sixth shot. The TSBD sniper had to fire three shots. That was the plan. His first shot hit Connally in the back, the second caused the knick to Tague´s cheek and the third came after the head shot at Z-313. All three shots are more than 2.5 seconds apart. The Warren Commission said all other loud noises apart from the three shots were echos. But acoustics experts BBN proved them wrong. Hartmann, Scott and Alvarez who did the jiggle analysis also proved them wrong.

David I think you believe that a shot was fired at Z-158 but that it missed the limo entirely and hit the pavement to the right of the limo. I´m saying a shot was fired at Z-158 and hit Kennedy in the back. You are saying that Kennedy was hit in the back at Z-224. I say Kennedy was hit in the throat at Z-193, and reacts to being hit in the throat starting at Z-206. The five missing frames show Kennedy going to his throat before the sign, not after the sign. I say Connally was hit in the back at Z-224. There were two snipers on the grassy knoll. One was stationed behind the picket fence west of the corner of the picket fence and the other was located behind the picket fence north of the corner. Both were hidden behind overhanging branches. The sniper who shot Kennedy in the throat fired from behind the fence through an opening in the pergola. He had to fire at that time because the limo was coming up on the sign. Using jiggle analysis, the highest peak of the six peaks that can be seen on pg 208, table 2, Hear No Evil, Don Thomas, shows the second shot as the second highest, with the shot-313, the highest. This means that the sniper who shot Kennedy in the throat was very close to Zapruder.

David Not only the jiggle analysis says a shot at Z-158 but also BBN´s acoustics investigation. That is the point I tried to make in No. 2 of my post above. So we have two scientific investigations that bolster eachother. Then you add in the back wound, which obviously was a misfire (bullet only entered the body 1-2 inches), corroborated by the acoustics of muffled rifle fire. The Zap film that was given to the Warren Commission lacked many frames, including Z-208, 209, 210, 211, and 212. These frames were said to have been destroyed by a LIFE magazine technician. I am 99% sure that Kennedy starts to go to his throat at Z-206 due to a shot from the grassy knoll and the missing frames show he has his hands at his throat BEFORE the sign. They were removed to fake the SBT. You will never find out what happeneed to Kennedy by relying on witness testimony, films and photos simply because they have been altered. The CIA are experts at covering up their crimes. The Kennedy assassination is another example of their work.