Could this be David Morales in Dealey Plaza?

[Charles Drago]

A slightly nuanced take on multiple guns in DP, in the guise of an informed but by no means provable hypothesis -- at least right now.

The "Castro did it" gambit was not affected in the slightest by LHO's capture. Its sole purpose was to hinder investigation by promulgating the fear, as expressed by Earl Warren and others, that getting to the bottom of the hit inevitably would lead to nuclear holocaust.

Don't forget the function of the Kostikov incident. Soviet as well as Cuban involvement in the assassination was "documented" early on for anyone too eager to get to the bottom of things. Or to the top, if you prefer.

(Castro was then, and is now, an indispensable enemy. Like bin Laden. If eliminated, their value to the war machine is nil. No control, no excess, without threat.)

Under no circumstances could evidence of multiple gunmen be hidden from honest investigators -- hence the presentation of Oswald acting alone becomes the essential, viable fallback position. Recall the scene in JFK when one of Garrison's investigators is approached by an FBI agent and told that of course we know it was a conspiracy.

What then of the anti-Castro boys? How would they be controlled when it became obvious that a retaliatory invasion of Cuba would not take place?

Bribery, blackmail, and mortal threat.

There was one, and only one, target on November 22, 1963.

Charles

Edited July 30, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Myra Bronstein]

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit? (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

I believe the original plan was to show a conspiracy in JFK's death and then to reveal said conspiracy as one backed by Castro. So yes, various guns located around Dealey Plaza, film showing bullet hits from the front, radio men conversing while sitting on the sidewalk, witnesses seeing smoke from the knoll ... etc, all that potential evidence that ultimately was either ignored, manipulated or ridiculed would have been used to support multiple gunmen and that Fidel sent them there.

IMO of course.

James

And your opinion is what I wanted.

Thank you James.

I wanted to make sure I understood the significance of the Johnson rifle.

Hi Myra,

I found Weberman - Nodule 13 great reading on the aspect of Hall as a patsy (through James' clues and nudges I might add).

I think one can make a sound case, staying at the same YMCA as LHO for example, seen travelling with guns etc. I forget the thread at the moment but there is a better discussion here somewhere.

Excellent resource! Thank you Gary.

Like you, I learned of Hall through James. A very good lead.

And I have seen the thread you're referring to.

[Francesca Akhtar]

Hi Francesca,

Very simply, I think he sensed that something wasn't right and took off, but not before giving up Oswald - something that would have had the DPD in particular focused on the alleged assassin and no one else.

For the DPD to arrive en masse at the theater like they did, I submit they had a very good tip-off that the presidential assassin was there.

I also submit that the whole story of the Johnson rifle that Hall retrieved from hock has yet to be told.

James

Hi James,

thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you - I think the DPD was tipped off as to Oswald's whereabouts at the theatre and the saga of the Johnson rifle is very suspect. Sorry if this is a stupid question but I don't know much about Roy Payne. He wasn't an alias of Roy Hargraves was he? Or was he a different person?

Thanks

[Jack White]

Hi Francesca,

Very simply, I think he sensed that something wasn't right and took off, but not before giving up Oswald - something that would have had the DPD in particular focused on the alleged assassin and no one else.

For the DPD to arrive en masse at the theater like they did, I submit they had a very good tip-off that the presidential assassin was there.

I also submit that the whole story of the Johnson rifle that Hall retrieved from hock has yet to be told.

James

Hi James,

thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you - I think the DPD was tipped off as to Oswald's whereabouts at the theatre and the saga of the Johnson rifle is very suspect. Sorry if this is a stupid question but I don't know much about Roy Payne. He wasn't an alias of Roy Hargraves was he? Or was he a different person?

Thanks

My question is could ROY POPE and ROY PAYNE be the same person?

Jack

[Francesca Akhtar]

Well, the subject of the Johnson rifle is new to me so I found this:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

......... Hall and "a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle" ten to fifteen days before the assassination. The

next day Hall and the Mexican left for Miami.

I'm presuming this was Lawrence Howard? He fits the bill on both accounts - i.e. being both 'fat and Mexican'.

[Myra Bronstein]

A slightly nuanced take on multiple guns in DP, in the guise of an informed but by no means provable hypothesis -- at least right now.

The "Castro did it" gambit was not affected in the slightest by LHO's capture. Its sole purpose was to hinder investigation by promulgating the fear, as expressed by Earl Warren and others, that getting to the bottom of the hit inevitably would lead to nuclear holocaust.

Don't forget the function of the Kostikov incident. Soviet as well as Cuban involvement in the assassination was "documented" early on for anyone too eager to get to the bottom of things. Or to the top, if you prefer.

(Castro was then, and is now, an indispensable enemy. Like bin Laden. If eliminated, their value to the war machine is nil. No control, no excess, without threat.)

Under no circumstances could evidence of multiple gunmen be hidden from honest investigators -- hence the presentation of Oswald acting alone becomes the essential, viable fallback position. Recall the scene in JFK when one of Garrison's investigators is approached by an FBI agent and told that of course we know it was a conspiracy.

What then of the anti-Castro boys? How would they be controlled when it became obvious that a retaliatory invasion of Cuba would not take place?

Bribery, blackmail, and mortal threat.

There was one, and only one, target on November 22, 1963.

Charles

Thank you Charles.

This is an area that confuses me horribly; it's exactly what I wanted to discuss.

In 'Deep Politics' Peter Dale Scott spends a lot of time talking about the cover story (Oswald/LN dunnit) versus the justification for the cover story (commies dunnit it/we could all die in a mushroom cloud). He doesn't use my terminology; frankly I think he uses confusing terminology so I'm paraphrasing. I hope I'm accurately reflecting his premise; I don't have the book in front of me.

So, Charles, it sounds to me like you're describing the same premise Scott described. The Castro/commie dunnit back story told to those not in on the plot, to justify the Oswald cover story. Am I accurately paraphrasing your premise?

If so, are you saying that (in your opinion of course) an invasion of Cuba in "retaliation" for JFK's assassination was not part of the original plot? It's just what the Cubans were told would happen to get them to go along and do the wet work(?)

So glad you brought this up...

[Charles Drago]

Myra,

With my "only an hypothesis" caveat restated up front:

Yes.

I'm not sure how I further can clarify the foundation of my thinking other than restating:

1. Castro's value to the assassination's prime movers and their surrogates -- or, if you will, to the Great Game -- is ZERO if he's gone.

2. Not even a botched LHO murder would have been enough to nullify a full-fledged plan to invade Cuba after a Castro patsying.

To me, no other explanation makes sense.

And yes, it is fair to note that I'm in agreement with Professor Scott on this issue.

Please let me know what you think.

Charles

[Bernice Moore]

One see's him clearly walking away toward overpass with jacket and radio under. A man named Hicks came forward and said he was that man [he was not!].

I think the crewcut man you are referring to was indeed Hicks. The question was whether he was in radio communication with the assassins as he or someone alleged. It is unclear what was in his back pocket.

If Hicks himself alleged that he was a radio man that day, he quit alleging it by the time he got to New Orleans and was interviewed by Garrison. It was never clear to me to whom he was supposed to have alleged this.

Would James or someone please post the photo of the 'Hicks' or whoever he was walking away with huge brick that looks like radio in his back pocket. I have, but can't locate on my computer at moment. If put all next to one another the radio bulges have the same sizes and features. Would be great if someone could put all three in one image.

Peter,

Is this the image you refer to?

James

Yes, James, that's the one...have you a good close-up of him and the 'brick' he's packing? I also love this photo as you can clearly see everyone running to the TSBD.....

Ha!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Peter:

I have lightened the single crop of Jim Hicks....

B.......

Edited July 31, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra,

With my "only an hypothesis" caveat restated up front:

Yes.

I'm not sure how I further can clarify the foundation of my thinking other than restating:

1. Castro's value to the assassination's prime movers and their surrogates -- or, if you will, to the Great Game -- is ZERO if he's gone.

2. Not even a botched LHO murder would have been enough to nullify a full-fledged plan to invade Cuba after a Castro patsying.

To me, no other explanation makes sense.

And yes, it is fair to note that I'm in agreement with Professor Scott on this issue.

Please let me know what you think.

Charles

Thanks Charles. This is helping a lot.

I'm inclined to agree with this hypothesis, albeit with reservations and questions.

For one: I would think that the mob, Roselli for example, would have been deceived along with the Cubans into believing that

they'd get their capitalist Cuba back after helping the gov't kill the President. Either that or they simply hated JFK enough to help kill him regardless. But the mob's eagerness to reclaim their Cuban businesses seems like an issue with this scenario.

Also (I asked this on another thread and it's still hanging out there), do you feel that there was a time when the CIA genuinely wanted to topple Castro?

If so then when did they change their policy from wanting to nail Castro to wanting him preserved as the boogeyman close to home?

Do you have opinions on these issues/questions?

The "only an hypothesis" caveat is still in effect.

Just brainstorming here...

On edit:

And if this hypothesis is true then it seems like the plotters had the cover story ready from the start. But there is the school of thought that the cover story evolved separately from the murder plot, and that contradicts this. I'm not expressing this very well...

Edited July 31, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[James Richards]

My question is could ROY POPE and ROY PAYNE be the same person? (Jack White)

I have no idea, Jack. Interesting thought though.

And for Myra, according to Gerry Hemming, the rifle seen in the right of this attachment below is the actual Johnson in question.

FWIW.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

I know this is off the point but DCM, sitting (with Hargraves?) with the cap sure looks like Orlando Bosch rather than Felipe Vidal Santiago. At least to me.

I realize people tend to believe that he's Santiago based on his appearance in other photos, and his association to Hargraves, but I dunno....

[Myra Bronstein]

...

And for Myra, according to Gerry Hemming, the rifle seen in the right of this attachment below is the actual Johnson in question.

FWIW.

James

Thanks James.

Do you know who is holding it in the photo?

[James Richards]

...

And for Myra, according to Gerry Hemming, the rifle seen in the right of this attachment below is the actual Johnson in question.

FWIW.

James

Thanks James.

Do you know who is holding it in the photo?

Myra,

Yes, I do. However, the last thing he would want is his name published in a public forum attaching him to that rifle.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

...

And for Myra, according to Gerry Hemming, the rifle seen in the right of this attachment below is the actual Johnson in question.

FWIW.

James

Thanks James.

Do you know who is holding it in the photo?

Myra,

Yes, I do. However, the last thing he would want is his name published in a public forum attaching him to that rifle.

James

Of course of course. But surely he wouldn't object if you PM'd or emailed the name...

(And surely you knew I'd ask. )

[Charles Drago]

I'm inclined to agree with this hypothesis, albeit with reservations and questions.

For one: I would think that the mob, Roselli for example, would have been deceived along with the Cubans into believing that

they'd get their capitalist Cuba back after helping the gov't kill the President. Either that or they simply hated JFK enough to help kill him regardless. But the mob's eagerness to reclaim their Cuban businesses seems like an issue with this scenario.

Also (I asked this on another thread and it's still hanging out there), do you feel that there was a time when the CIA genuinely wanted to topple Castro?

If so then when did they change their policy from wanting to nail Castro to wanting him preserved as the boogeyman close to home?

Do you have opinions on these issues/questions?

The "only an hypothesis" caveat is still in effect.

Just brainstorming here...

On edit:

And if this hypothesis is true then it seems like the plotters had the cover story ready from the start. But there is the school of thought that the cover story evolved separately from the murder plot, and that contradicts this. I'm not expressing this very well...

Myra,

The Mob's Cuban businesses (gambling, prostitution, infrastructure control, etc.) in the agregate were small potatoes compared to the international drug trade that was threatened by JFK's telegraphed intentions to withdraw from Southeast Asia and thus likely eliminate the Golden Triangle from the game board. Recall that in the time period under scrutiny Trafficante and others were working to eliminate the Corsican middle men and deal directly with Asian principals (see The Great Heroin Coup as a worthy primer).

Such a paradigm shift would bring about major changes at all levels of the drug operation.

Castro's value, then, as a diversionary bogeyman is enhanced. And we cannot dismiss the possibility that powerful elements within the Cuban government may have been complicit in the development and/or protection of Caribbean smuggling routes that would play immensely significant roles in the new system.

Your question about the intentions of the CIA raises a very important issue. We appreciate KUBARK as a monolithic entity and as a policy setter at our peril. The most influential criminal factions within the agency were/are never more than highly paid tools of the institutions (catch me in the right mood and I'll use the word "families") that had most to gain by maintenance of the Cold War and its multiple profit-generating, power-preserving aspects.

Helms, Angleton, King, Shackley, Meyer, Dulles ... Do you think they would break wind without first clearing it with their bosses?

Were aspects of the post-hit plot improvised in response to unforseen circumstances? I'd be shocked if they weren't. Maybe this metaphor works:

The basso continuo, or figured bass, is a key element in Baroque music, much of which was written with a melody line and with simple bass line figures under it.

The keyboardist would have to play that line and improvise harmony based on the figures.

I'm ham-handedly trying to indicate that an assassination plot of immense complexity by definition would anticipate and provide for the addressing of the unanticipated.

The plotters went for Baroque, and scored.

Hypothetically, of course.

Charles