Could this be David Morales in Dealey Plaza?

[Myra Bronstein]

James:

Who is the second patsy...the one who changed the Plan by betraing Oswald? - Gene

Gene,

This is purely my opinion but I submit Loran Hall.

James

James,

that is very interesting and kind of fits with thoughts I'd had about him. Can you elaborate on how Hall might have 'betrayed Oswald'? In your opinion of course.

Thanks

Hi Franc

esca,

Very simply, I think he sensed that something wasn't right and took off, but not before giving up Oswald - something that would have had the DPD in particular focused on the alleged assassin and no one else.

For the DPD to arrive en masse at the theater like they did, I submit they had a very good tip-off that the presidential assassin was there.

I also submit that the whole story of the Johnson rifle that Hall retrieved from hock has yet to be told.

James

Well, the subject of the Johnson rifle is new to me so I found this:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

"The Johnson Semi-Automatic

For some reason the FBI took a very serious interest in a particular Johnson semi-automatic rifle immediately after the assassination. The Johnson semi-automatic rifle, 30.06, is a self-loading shoulder weapon equipped with a rotary feed magazine and has a capacity of eleven shots, ten rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. It is loaded from standard Springfield-type clips, or single cartridges. The rifle can be fired as slowly or rapidly as the trigger can be pulled. The theoretical cyclic rate of fire of the Johnson semi-automatic is 600 rounds per minute.

The FBI traced a Johnson semi-automatic rifle to CIA-connected, anti-Castro raids in Cuba and to four men: Jerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Richard Hathcock, and Roy Payne. The day after the assassination, an FBI agent questioned private detective Richard Hathcock, who had kept the rifle in his California office. Hathcock was asked whether he knew a man named Roy Payne. Hathcock knew Payne and stated that the FBI wanted to question Payne " ... because Payne's fingerprints undoubtedly were all over that rifle from his having handled it many times." [36] Payne vouched for the accuracy of the weapon and stated that Loran Hall and an unidentified Hispanic man took the weapon from him about a week before the assassination. [37]

In HSCA testimony Hathcock, owner of Allied International Detective Agency, said that Jerry Patrick Hemming and Lorenzo "Skip" Hall visited Hathcock claiming that they were raising money to buy medicines and military hardware for a planned invasion of Cuba. They were broke. From Hathcock they borrowed one hundred dollars and gave Hathcock a set of golf clubs and a Johnson semi-automatic rifle with a 30 power Bushnell variable scope as collateral. Eventually Hall repayed $50, retrieved the rifle and told Hathcock to keep the clubs. Hathcock never saw the rifle again but was asked about it by Jim Garrison, who showed Hathcock an enlarged photo depicting a Dallas detective holding a rifle "which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. The rifle looked to me exactly like the one I'd had in my office. I have combed the Warren Report stem to stern. I find no mention of that rifle, which was picked up on Dealey Plaza." [38] Hathcock claimed that Hall told him he had turned the rifle over to a doctor friend of his in Miami, Florida. Hemming told Hatchcock that Hall's story was false. On November 23, 1963 Hathcock was questioned by FBI agent Jerry Crow about the rifle. Crow wanted to question Hathcock's associate Roy Payne. Hathcock ended hisHSCA statement with "unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in this whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest in it."

Payne's statement was full of details concerning the Johnson rifle. Payne believed the rifle had been involved in numerous Cuban raids. He examined to see if it had been modified, but it had not. He confirmed that it had a 30 power Bushnell scope. He stated that the rifle was extremely accurate. Hall and "a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle" ten to fifteen days before the assassination. The next day Hall and the Mexican left for Miami. On November 18, 1963 Payne saw Hall again and asked him about the Cuban operations that he and Hemming had planned, but Hall merely said that the CIA had stopped the operation in Miami, and he did not have the time to talk about the matter since he had to make a plane to Dallas. Agent Crow questioned Payne on the 23rd of November. "We discussed the situation about what had occurred and what has gone on with Hemming and Hall ..." Payne told the HSCA. Payne believed the FBI was following him for several months after his conversation with Crow. In the subsequent months after the assassination Payne claimed that the FBI secretly searched his vehicle as well as Hathcock's offices. He talked to Hall about ten to fourteen days after the assassination. Hall told him he was "right in the middle of the lobby of the [Dallas] Hilton, Hotel" during the assassination. Author Dick Russell's interview with Hall told a different story of where Hall was on November 22, " ... I was in Monterey Park, California ... I'd just taken my wife to her job." [39] Payne later read that Hall claimed he was never in Texas. In his last conversation with Hall, Payne was told that Hall had several attempts made against his life, one being a car bomb. Hemming eventually told Payne thathe "didn't like the idea that the rifle went down there, since he felt it was his rifle and the golf clubs that were also hocked." [40]

Jerry Patrick Hemming, according to a Miami Police Intelligence Unit report of November 1, 1963, stated that Hall had stolen two rifles from his apartment the night of October 31, 1963 (a jungle carbine and a Savage .22). He also claimed that Hall was responsible for stealing a third rifle from California --- a Johnson 30.06. [41]

Loran Eugene Hall, an anti-Castro activist Alpha 66 exile group, told author Dick Russell that in 1968 he had been offered $50,000 to assassinate JFK. The meeting occurred on October 17, 1963 when he was seeking funds for guerilla raids into Cuba. He was approached by "right wing radicals who also had RFK and MLK on their kill lists ... they were lunatic fanatical right wingers -- Klansmen and Fascists -- who had the means, the men, and their own twisted reasons for wanting to kill our leaders."

Hall claimed the group included ex-military men. He said he turned down the offer that was presented to him in a wealthy Dallas trucking executive's office. Hall also knew mafia boss Santos Trafficante, whom he shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959. In the spring of 1963, Hall claims he met in Miami Beach with Trafficante and others who were planning an exile raid of Cuba. Hall and Trafficante shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959, a fact he told the House Select Committee. Hall was implicated by the FBI as one of the men who met with Sylvia Odio, the Cuban woman who claimed she saw Oswald in September 1963 with two anti-Cuban activists.

In discussing a plot to kill the president, Hall told author Dick Russell "I'd go so far as to say I probably sat as close as I'm sitting to you now, to some people who had a part in it." FBI Director Hoover told the Warren Commission that Hall admitted to his agents that he was one of the three people that met with Sylvia Odio. FBI Agent James Hosty wrote in his 1996 book, Assignment Oswald, that a fellow security agent Wally Heitman discovered that Loran Hall, Larry Howard, and Willliam Seymour were the visitors at Odio's home. Seymour supposedly looked like Oswald and had a propensity for speaking harshly of Kennedy. Hall claims he never told the FBI that he met Odio. He claims that he was being setup as a "fall guy," another patsy in the rich cast of nefarious characters that surround the case. "I'm sure someone was out to implicate us."

Hemming claimed, in a 1967 interview, he had met Oswald. Hemming stated "I ran into Oswald in Los Angeles in 1959, when he showed up at the Cuban Consulate. The coordinator of the 26th of July Movement [an anti-Castro organization] called me aside and said a Marine officer had showed up ... he told me he was a noncommissioned officer ... a radar operator ... helping the Cubans out with everything he knew. He turned out to be Oswald ... I thought he was a penetrator of pro-Castro forces... I thought he was on the Naval Intelligence payroll at the time.""

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Edited July 30, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Jack White]

Jack,

Apart from what you have written about him, I don't know much at all.

I get the feeling Roy Pope was an alias and disinformation may have been the motive behind his appearance. Has Gerry Hemming ever passed comment on this guy do you know?

James

Here is the Roy Pope story. (You may recall this from Rich's forum years ago)

In the 1970s, after it became known that I was studying the MC rifle, I started

receiving long distance phone calls from someone named Roy Pope from Los

Angeles, as well as Panama and Brazil (allegedly). He called almost nightly and

sometimes talked for as much as two hours. Upfront he told me that he was

a FORMER CIA AGENT now working as a private investigator, and told me the

story of the "pawning of a rifle", mentioned as I recall in Canfield/Weberman

(too long to relate here). Pope had a melifluous charming voice like a radio

announcer, and I imagined him a James Bond type spy. His calls went on for

weeks or months, trying to convince me that the pawned rifle was used in

the JFK shooting. He sent me dozens of pages from a gun catalog showing

that it was acclaimed as the world's finest sniper rifle. In later years, Mary

Ferrell brought Pope to one of my slide lectures, which included my studies

of the MC rifle. I was very disappointed; far from being a suave handsome

James Bond type, Pope was short, balding and pudgy...and during my slide

show fell asleep and started snoring! I never claimed to be a spellbinding

speaker, but for a guy who seemed so interested by long distance phone

to seem so disinterested in person seemed most odd.

I don't know if Hemming ever knew about Pope's calls to me.

Jack

[Myra Bronstein]

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

[Jack White]

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

Myra...what I think does not matter. I do not know who ANY of the shooters were.

Your opinion is as good as mine. They pulled off the perfect crime, because none

of them is identified nearly half a century later. An unsolved mystery.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

It would certainly seem like it when you consider that one of the witnesses (can't remember which one off the cuff) said that the man she saw at a 6th floor window before the motorcade arrived was actually holding the rifle outside of the window. If true, what other explanation is there?

[Myra Bronstein]

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

It would certainly seem like it when you consider that one of the witnesses (can't remember which one off the cuff) said that the man she saw at a 6th floor window before the motorcade arrived was actually holding the rifle outside of the window. If true, what other explanation is there?

Exactly.

Thanks for your opinion Ron.

[Myra Bronstein]

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

Myra...what I think does not matter. I do not know who ANY of the shooters were.

Your opinion is as good as mine. They pulled off the perfect crime, because none

of them is identified nearly half a century later. An unsolved mystery.

Jack

... Gosh Jack, did you wander in here by mistake while looking for the "Don't bother to investigate JFK assassination" forum?

Edited July 30, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Jack White]

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

Myra...what I think does not matter. I do not know who ANY of the shooters were.

Your opinion is as good as mine. They pulled off the perfect crime, because none

of them is identified nearly half a century later. An unsolved mystery.

Jack

... Gosh Jack, did you wander in here by mistake while looking for the "Don't bother to investigate JFK assassination" forum?

Myra...I decided many years ago that it was futile to try pinning

down shooters and locations and names etc. They were hired guns

and likely were soon eliminated with extreme prejudice by those

manipulating them. I am more interested in the compartmentalized

chain of command who pulled their strings. Evidence says there

were several shooters in several locations...CONSPIRACY. But

the conspirators did not do the shooting themselves...they used

surrogates, while they remained safely undercover. So, no, I do

not care about the shooters' names unless that will lead to their

bosses. Long ago I decided the bosses who commanded the killers

were people like Hunt, Phillips, Lansdale and Conein...and way above

them were people like Dulles, Hoover and Johnson...and above them

people in the shadow government. It is these people who killed JFK,

but none of them pulled a trigger.

Jack

[Tim Gratz]

While I disagree with Jack re who was in control of the operation, the quotation that comes to mind is from Eric Ambler, to this effect: "It matters less who shot the bullets than who paid for them."

Of course from a legal (and moral) POV, all members of the conspiracy, regardless of the level at which they operated, are equally responsible.

[William Kelly]

While I disagree with Jack re who was in control of the operation, the quotation that comes to mind is from Eric Ambler, to this effect: "It matters less who shot the bullets than who paid for them."

Of course from a legal (and moral) POV, all members of the conspiracy, regardless of the level at which they operated, are equally responsible.

Tim, Do you mean Mrs. Paine too?

BK

[James Richards]

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit? (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

I believe the original plan was to show a conspiracy in JFK's death and then to reveal said conspiracy as one backed by Castro. So yes, various guns located around Dealey Plaza, film showing bullet hits from the front, radio men conversing while sitting on the sidewalk, witnesses seeing smoke from the knoll ... etc, all that potential evidence that ultimately was either ignored, manipulated or ridiculed would have been used to support multiple gunmen and that Fidel sent them there.

IMO of course.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

Myra...what I think does not matter. I do not know who ANY of the shooters were.

Your opinion is as good as mine. They pulled off the perfect crime, because none

of them is identified nearly half a century later. An unsolved mystery.

Jack

... Gosh Jack, did you wander in here by mistake while looking for the "Don't bother to investigate JFK assassination" forum?

Myra...I decided many years ago that it was futile to try pinning

down shooters and locations and names etc. They were hired guns

and likely were soon eliminated with extreme prejudice by those

manipulating them. I am more interested in the compartmentalized

chain of command who pulled their strings. Evidence says there

were several shooters in several locations...CONSPIRACY. But

the conspirators did not do the shooting themselves...they used

surrogates, while they remained safely undercover. So, no, I do

not care about the shooters' names unless that will lead to their

bosses. Long ago I decided the bosses who commanded the killers

were people like Hunt, Phillips, Lansdale and Conein...and way above

them were people like Dulles, Hoover and Johnson...and above them

people in the shadow government. It is these people who killed JFK,

but none of them pulled a trigger.

Jack

Totally agree with your points Jack, and like your quote Tim.

Though if you go back and look at my original questions Jack I wasn't trying to name shooters.

I was trying to find out if the following evidence supports the theory that framing Castro was plan A (which was discarded when Oswald was captured alive):

-Multiple conspicuous "shooters" (or what appeared to be shooters) in DP,

-Multiple high powered rifles stashed around DP (of which the Johnson rifle was one),

-Multiple patsies.

[Myra Bronstein]

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit? (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

I believe the original plan was to show a conspiracy in JFK's death and then to reveal said conspiracy as one backed by Castro. So yes, various guns located around Dealey Plaza, film showing bullet hits from the front, radio men conversing while sitting on the sidewalk, witnesses seeing smoke from the knoll ... etc, all that potential evidence that ultimately was either ignored, manipulated or ridiculed would have been used to support multiple gunmen and that Fidel sent them there.

IMO of course.

James

And your opinion is what I wanted.

Thank you James.

I wanted to make sure I understood the significance of the Johnson rifle.

[Tim Gratz]

To Bill:

Anyone who was aware of a plot to kill the President and did anything to assist it in any way is guilty of murder most foul--and treason. Since Mrs. Paine is still alive, I do not want to libel her but I would certainly think that in today's vernacular she would be a "person of interest"--and at least close to the top of my list of witnesses to be interviewed.

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit? (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

I believe the original plan was to show a conspiracy in JFK's death and then to reveal said conspiracy as one backed by Castro. So yes, various guns located around Dealey Plaza, film showing bullet hits from the front, radio men conversing while sitting on the sidewalk, witnesses seeing smoke from the knoll ... etc, all that potential evidence that ultimately was either ignored, manipulated or ridiculed would have been used to support multiple gunmen and that Fidel sent them there.

IMO of course.

James

And your opinion is what I wanted.

Thank you James.

I wanted to make sure I understood the significance of the Johnson rifle.

Hi Myra,

I found Weberman - Nodule 13 great reading on the aspect of Hall as a patsy (through James' clues and nudges I might add).

I think one can make a sound case, staying at the same YMCA as LHO for example, seen travelling with guns etc. I forget the thread at the moment but there is a better discussion here somewhere.