Shots from inside the presidential limo

[J. Raymond Carroll]

You have NO idea what I think.

OK, You think the ZFILM was faked, Correct?

[Jack White]

You have NO idea what I think.

OK, You think the ZFILM was faked, Correct?

Now you are on the right track.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

OK, You think the ZFILM was faked, Correct?

Now you are on the right track.

Well I have been reading Craig Lamson's posts, and studying the recent Nix and Muchmore GIFs posted by Chris Davidson, Martin Hinrichs and Robin Unger, and so I dedicate this song to Jack, Paul Rigby and all the film alterationists out there:

[David Andrews]

Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams' "Murder from Within," whose first four chapters are up on Rich DellaRosa's site, cites testimony and anecdote describing how the SS agent seated behind the driver of the Johnson car fired a decoy pistol shot into the air (p. 50 ff). Is this the "firing back" SS response some witnesses noted?

The 1970s narrative has more than a few problems overall. But see the agent's upraised hand in Altgens 6: Has a pistol been retouched out?

Chapter Three of Newcomb and Perry goes on to describe reports of gunpowder scentings east of the pergola, which ought to be checked against reports in other sources.

Edited February 3, 2010 by David Andrews

[Pat Speer]

Well, I hope your hands are stained from all the cherry picking, Paul.

It's a full life being an advocate of an in-car shooting, what with locating our mandatory turquoise track-suits, coming to terms with our divinity, fighting the good fight against artfully disguised elite lizards etc.

Worst of all, we have to cope with the shame of having read the testimony of some of the closest and/or best-placed eyewitnesses - and taken it seriously! No wonder we struggle for credibility.

Ah, well, such is life, and I have a UFO to catch - straight to the newsagents, please, Alien Cooper...

1.Bobby Hargis (Police motorcycle outrider, left rear of limousine):

Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?

Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

DECEPTIVE: Hargis didn't mean directly next to him, but to the side of him, across the street.

(11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don’t think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first.

2. Austin Miller (railroad worker, on triple overpass):

Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”

Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

SOMEWHAT DECEPTIVE: Miller was looking at Kennedy at the time of the head shot and saw nobody in the car fire a shot at him. If he did, he wouldn't have looked for someone throwing firecrackers from the knoll.

(4-8-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H223-227) “it came down Main Street and turned North on Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left on Elm. Got about halfway down the hill toward the underpass and that is when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired…I thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out…just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time…it was after that I saw some man in a car fall forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, I don't know exactly what she said…About that time I turned to look toward the - there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so I stepped back and looked at the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks. So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast..." (When asked from where he thought the shots came) "the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car.”

3. Charles Brehm (carpet salesman, south curb of Elm St.): “in front of or beside” the President. Source: Dallas Times Herald, November 22, 1963, cited by Joachim Joesten. Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy? (London: Merlin Press, 1964), p.176.

DECEPTIVE: That Brehm said the shots came from "in front of or beside" the President--which does not mean inside the car--was claimed in one newspaper account, that couldn't even get his name right. One. That Brehm said from the earliest interviews that he ran away and dived on his son after the third shot because the shooter may have been a madman indicates he didn't think the shots were coming from inside the limo. Oh yeah, he also later swore the shots came from behind.

(11-22-63 notes on an interview of Brehm by a Dallas Times-Herald reporter immediately after the shooting, as presented in The Zapruder Film by David Wrone, 2003) "The shots came from in front of or beside of the President." (11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times Herald) "The first time he slumped and the second one really blasted him," These were the words of Charles Drehm...Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front of or beside the President." (11-22-63 (NBC?) radio interview found on the internet) “I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him. There is some discussion now as to whether there was one or two shots that hit him, but the first shot rang out and I was positive when I saw the look on his face and saw him grab his chest and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot and just at that time, which was probably a few seconds later the second shot rang out and he just absolutely went down into the seat of the car. There was a third shot that went and by that time I had grabbed my little five year old boy who was with me and ran away from the scene of the thing. But the only thing that I did witness and something I'm sorry I did witness very honestly was the look on his face when that shot hit, and the look again on him and his wife's face when the shots started to ring out. And it was very obviously that he was hit. The first two shots that were heard. The first one hit the president—there was no doubt whatsoever--because his face winced and he grabbed himself and he slumped down. I do believe without any doubt that the second one hit him because he had an immediate reaction with that second shot. I do know there was a third shot but as I said by that time I had grabbed my boy and started to go. I did not witness Governor Connally’s being hit.” (11-22-63 WBAP television interview first broadcast 3:15 CST, as shown in Rush to Judgment) “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened…He was coming down the Street and my five-year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street. And I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved and I waved (breaks up)…as he was waving back, the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat and his wife reached up toward him as he was slumping down and the second shot went off and it just knocked him down in the seat...Two shots..." (When asked if he saw the shooter) "No, sir, I did not see the man who did it. All I did was look in the man's face when he was shot there and saw that expression on his face and he grabbed himself and slide, and the second one whenever it went--I’m positive that it hit him--I hope it didn't--but I'm positive it hit him and he went all the way down in the car. Then they speeded up and I didn't know what was going on so I just grabbed the boy and fell on him in hopes that there wasn't a maniac around.”

(Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "When the first shot went off, I thought it was a backfire from from a motorcycle. But when his hands went up, then I realized 'My God, he has been shot.' On the first shot I was possibly thirty feet maximum from him. On the second shot he was not more than fifteen feet away. I couldn't imagine that it was a shot. But when I seen the president stiffen and his hands go up, I knew then that he had been shot. From where I was on the second shot, the damage was visible to the President's head. It was clearly visible that he had been hit in the head. I could see that the damage was severe. There was defiintely blood. It was not a great flow of it but you could see the area crimson. I did not see blood on the first shot. Then I grabbed the boy and threw him on the ground and fell on top of him, a natural infantry instinct that came to me. There were only three shots. It was a third wasted shot that from the sound of it, and I'm taking into account that I've heard these things go past me before and I've stopped a couple of them, that third shot came nowhere near the parade. I felt that was the hurried shot." (When asked if he saw something fly from the president's head) "I did see something fly to the left of the car and down into the street. I saw something but I couldn't positively identify it and I don't want to go on record as identifying it....My belief, and if I had to die on the spot from my belief, is those two shots came from the same place. I couldn't pinpoint it, but they came from what was established as a window. There was no shots from anywhere else...the shots came from up at the School Book Depository. There was no doubt in my mind that this was the way that it was."

4. Officer E. L. Boone (policeman, corner of Main and Houston Streets):" I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

SOMEWHAT DECEPTIVE: from Boone's location both the TSBD and the grassy knoll were in the vicinity of where the President's car was.

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he “saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

DECEPTIVE: Betzner saw the explosion of Kennedy's skull--that was the firecracker. And he assumed the President was shot from the knoll, not by an SS agent waving his gun.

(11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H467) “I then ran down to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, this being the southwest corner. I took another picture just as President Kennedy’s car rounded the corner…I ran on down Elm a little more and President Kennedy’s car was starting to go down the hill to the triple underpass. I took another picture as the President’s car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President’s car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped. Then I saw a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car…I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president’s car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car. Then the President's car sped on under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators started running up the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood. I assumed that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I kept watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I walked down toward where the President's car had stopped.”

6. Jack Franzen: “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

SOMEWHAT DECEPTIVE: Here is your best witness and he doesn't even support your cockamamie theory. The only reason I don't say DECEPTIVE is that Franzen's impression the shots came from behind stemmed from his recollection of the blood spray direction, when what he saw may have been backsplash.

(11-24-63 FBI report, 22H840) “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President’s car and noticed small fragments flying inside the car and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile. He heard a second and third and possibly a fourth explosion and recognized these sounds as shots fired from some firearm. At the same time he noticed blood appearing on the top and sides of the head of President Kennedy.” (Family interview recorded 6-18-97 available online) “so we walked on down to the grassy area, just short of the triple underpass...We had a ball and Jeff and I were tossing the ball back and forth and a few people came along...and we moved further west down the hill. Right across from a little people station or something there on the north side of Elm. And, sure enough, you could then start hearing some noise to our east and directly, the cars came down Main… About that time, the Presidential car was turning the corner right there at the School Book Depository, and almost came to a stop as it turned the corner... and about that time there were two explosions. They sounded like fireworks and - to my memory - there were some kind of feathers or confetti or something, uh, stirred around the car. The limousine driver and the guy in the front seat almost - momentarily - stopped the car and he turned his head and everything was alright, so he turned back and proceeded to come on down toward us. The car was moving very slowly. Then there was another explosion - seemed to me like it was maybe 200 feet from the corner. And it didn’t register, exactly. But the car kept coming and picking up a little speed. Then, we were right there at the car - maybe 25 feet from it. Connally appeared to be bending over - in retrospect, he’d probably been hit. Nell was looking at him. At just about that time, another explosion and, you could just see Kennedy’s head - his forehead - literally explode. Whatever hit him, I would feel, hit from the back...for his blood and brain matter went forward. His body went forward…and to his left. And he was sitting on Jackie’s right. As it went forward and to the left, there was a lot of gore and he kind of fell over onto Jackie and she jumped up. Almost got her knees or feet on the seat rather than on the floor; about that same instant the driver turned his head around and saw that Kennedy was a mess.”

7. Mrs. Jack Franzen: “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

DECEPTIVE: an FBI report on Mrs. Franzen makes clear she thought the shots came from the knoll area.

(11-25-63 FBI report, 24H525) “She advised shortly after the President’s automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her to as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile. She advised she heard two other sounds which sounded like shots from a firearm and noticed blood appearing on the side of President Kennedy’s head…She advised the President’s automobile continued on down Elm Street at a higher rate of speed.” (12-11-63 Airtel from Dallas FBI as a response to a Bureau Airtel of 12-6--apparently they sought some clarification--FBI Headquarters File 102-82555, Sec 27, p41) "She recalled hearing the shots, thinking at the time that the first was a firecracker, and noticed blood appear on the side of the President's head...She recalled that after the President's car sped away, she observed police officers and plain-clothes men searching an area adjacent to the TSBD Building and assumed the shots came from that area."

7. Clint Hill (on the second shot, the fatal one to the head): “It was as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object," 2WCH144.

DECEPTIVE: How does the sound of someone shooting a revolver into a hard object, and creating an echo, suggest a shot fired from several feet away? Particularly when Hill swore the first shot came from his right rear? Don't you think he'd have noticed if the second shot he heard came from right in front of him?

(3-9-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H132-144) “Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left... I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo.”

8. James Altgens: “The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

DECEPTIVE: It's clear Altgens was speculating, and meant to the left of the car from his position in front of the limo--which would mean the knoll--not the left side of the car, where Greer was sitting.

(11-22-63 eyewitness account, presented as an AP dispatch and published in Cover-Up) "There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car. Blood covered the whole left side of his head. Mrs. Kennedy saw what had happened to her husband. She grabbed him exclaiming, "Oh, No!". The car's driver realized what had happened and almost as if by reflex speeded up towards the Stemmons Expressway. There seemed to be utter confusion. One motorcycle officer ran his cycle into the curb, almost falling off. Police came from everywhere as the President's car disappeared from sight. At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures. But it turned out to be just more confusion. Police ran in all directions in search of the assassin. I did not know until later where the shots came from. I was on the opposite side of the President's car from the gunman. He might have hit me. The motorcade was moving along in routine fashion until there was a noise like fireworks popping. I snapped a picture of the motorcade at just about that time, still unaware of what was happening. I cranked my camera for another shot. The procession still moved along slowly. Then came the second burst of noise."

So, really, Paul, NONE of the witnesses you've provided support your silly fantasy. Not in the least.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I don't care how old the memory is, her recollection has immense credibility. Paul Bentley as a comparison?

You should do some research on the credibility of 30 year old memories in general. There is loads of scientific research proving that Bowron's memory here isn't worth spit. (Maybe you think we should trust her memory because Bowron is British, is that it?)

Do I believe that Greer's slowing down of the vehicle allowed the fatal shot to occur. Yes. Do I believe he did it on purpose and with advanced foreknowledge. I don't know.

Just a coincidence, eh?

If you believe it was a plot, as I assume you do, then surely you must agree that ANY decent plot to shoot JFK in a moving vehicle would REQUIRE the complicity of the driver.

In order to get the driver to agree, you would have to guarantee him that he would not be in the line of fire, ERGO no shots from the rear.

If all of the shots came from the front and the MC wasn't used for at least one of the hits then it's the craziest plot ever conceived

Au contraire; it was one of the most BRILLIANT plots in history. The conspirators shot the president of the USA in broad daylight, AND THEY ALL GOT AWAY WITH IT, even to the point where one of the MOST OBVIOUS CONSPIRATORS, Bill Greer, is fooling coincidence theorists to this day.

There is plenty of evidence that the masterminds of the JFK plot were also EXPERTS in the field of MIND CONTROL.

[Paul Rigby]

Au contraire; it was one of the most BRILLIANT plots in history. The conspirators shot the president of the USA in broad daylight, AND THEY ALL GOT AWAY WITH IT, even to the point where one of the MOST OBVIOUS CONSPIRATORS, Bill Greer, is fooling coincidence theorists to this day.

There is plenty of evidence that the masterminds of the JFK plot were also EXPERTS in the field of MIND CONTROL.

I say, Jay, very well put. And I agree with you on shots to Kennedy from the rear - (a) shifting, transparent, post-mortem fabrication(s). Lifton here is impeccably sound.

Two commendations in one post? I apologise. Twice.

Paul

[J. Raymond Carroll]

P.S. What in your hypothesis hit Connally then Ray? From which direction? I'm assuming his back wound wasn't added at Bethesda or Walter Reed?

I addressed that question in an earlier response to you, which you apparently have FORGOTTEN.

So much for your MEMORY, old chap.